COLE VS. BELTHAZOR

[pubesy]

oh, ok. that phrase is not used here in Australia. suicide by cop. instead....it is just called a police involved shooting resulting in bodily harm or resulting in death.

and even, with police involved shootings - the criminal does something that would immediately provoke attack, leaving no choice but for the cop to defend himself such as run at the cop with a knife etc.

if the cop shot the criminal when the criminal was just standing there persuasively arguing (like cole was) or the cop intended to kill the criminal, rather than protect himself (like phoebe did) then it could not be and should not be called a "suicide by cop/suicide by witch" the cop could be hauled before before the police tribunal and loose his badge at the very least as well as possibly face criminal charges.

phoebe was not faced with immediate imminent death when she vanquished cole, nor did cole commit any immediate act that would result in the harm of self or another. phebe intended to kill cole when she threw the potion.

hence it cant be considered suicide by witch

catch my drift?

[jate88]

Pubsey you do have a point but even though people do their best to try and be good, they don't like to be humiliated. It's always nice to have the last laugh. If you know what I mean.

That's what I'm trying to get at. Not sure about vandergraafk though. So you live in Australia? I here Julian Mchanon is from their.

[vandergraafk]

You've made it a tad too easy. The provocation must be intense. What it plays upon is the frustration that the recipient will experience - cop or witch. Then, the cop or witch returns deadly force. The provocateur has got what he or she wants: death at the hands of the police or a witch.

All of Cole's actions from Sam I Am were meant to provoke a vanquish out of rage/frustration. Phoebe recognized this in Sam I Am and declined to participate. Cole nevertheless summoned the final potion. It didn't work.

In Centennial Charmed, Cole knows that Belthazor is vulnerable and he is already painfully aware that Piper and Paige have a bit of his flesh. He knows what it's for. The instrument of his destruction is present. All he needs to do is provoke Phoebe. That's the point of his taunts. He dares her to throw the potion. That is suicide by witch.

Alternative reality Phoebe does not necessarily know that the potion she holds will vanquish Cole. Neither Piper nor Paige have had an opportunity to explain what the potion will do. Recall that Paige had to remind Piper that she and Prue had a potion to vanquish Cole. Why shouldn't we assume that Phoebe was equally in the dark? Thus, you may be right that Phoebe might have intended to vanquish Cole/Belthazor, but she cannot be certain that she possesses the means by which to accomplish this.

[pubesy]

i get where you are coming from, vander, but i truly have difficulty calling cole's final demise suicide.

PIPER: Where's Cole?COLE: (o.s.) Right here.

(From the empty sitting room, COLE walks in. Without any warning he powers up an energy ball and hurls it toward PIPER, PAIGE and LEO. Catching them unaware; the energy ball finds their mark. The three are flung backward. They hit the bar counter and fall to the floor. The vial slips out of PAIGE's grip.)

PHOEBE: No!

(PHOEBE runs over to check them out. COLE motions with his hand and the potion flies into his open palm. He now holds onto the vial.)

PHOEBE: What did you do to them?

COLE: Exactly what they were gonna do to me.

(PAIGE wakes up and checks PIPER'S pulse.)

PAIGE: She's still alive. (to Phoebe) Grab her hand.

PHOEBE: What?

COLE: I don't know how you got here, Paige. But if it's any consolation, I know exactly where I'm gonna bury you ... right next to yourself.

PAIGE: (again to Phoebe) Grab her hand.

(PHOEBE takes ahold of PIPER'S hand. A blue shimmering light from above reigns down upon them ... anointing them as The Charmed Ones. PHOEBE looks at COLE. She then looks up at the familiar light from above. COLE takes a step toward them and powers up another energy ball. He hurls it at them. The energy ball bounces off the light protectively surrounding the sisters and flies back at COLE.)

(COLE ducks in time and the energy ball crashes through the windows behind him.)

(PHOEBE and PAIGE stand up. PIPER and LEO are still unconscious on the floor. PHOEBE knows this. She's felt this power before.)

PHOEBE: (wonderingly) The Power of Three.

PAIGE: That's us. Potion!

(PAIGE holds out her hand and the potion that was in COLE'S grip orbs into hers. COLE gasps. PAIGE has her powers back.)

PAIGE: I do hate long good-byes.

(PAIGE raises her arm intending to end this for good. PHOEBE stops her.)

PHOEBE: No!

(PHOEBE grabs the vial out of PAIGE'S hand. She turns around to look at COLE. COLE lets out a relieved breath.)

PAIGE: Phoebe, are you crazy? Throw it before he shimmers out!

(COLE looks at PHOEBE.)

COLE: She's not gonna throw it. Are you?

PAIGE: Throw the potion.

COLE: We've been through so much together ... haven't we? Our love's so strong, nothing can destroy it, not even ... this. We're meant to be together.

(For a moment, PHOEBE doesn't move. Then ... )

PHOEBE: I don't think so.

(PHOEBE throws the vial at COLE with all her strength. The potion hits COLE and he immediately bursts into flames. He yells out in pain as the flames consume him. COLE explodes. Balthazor is vanquished.)

(Camera holds on PHOEBE as she watches.)



cole came into the room with the intention of killing paige. when paige went to throw the potion, but phoebe stopped her cole felt relieved. he must have felt relieved because he still felt there was a chance. a chance that phoebe still loved him. and he appealed to that chance with his final words.

true to his character, cole was still trying to spin the situation to his advantage.

and as far as witch assisted suicide, i really don't think this is an example - cole did not commit any act which would leave phoebe no choice but to defend herself. she threw the potion with the intention of killing cole, not the intention of protecting herself.

i mean, sure cole was spinning words, even potentially using reverse psychology. but that is not something that demands phoebe to use physical defense.

if the police used verbal goading as an reason for a cop to shoot a criminal - then there would be alot more bodies on morgue slabs.

i am sorry if i may seem pedantic with this definition... its just that suicide and self harm seem to be very popular ideologies lately - especially among adolescents - where it has been romanticized with the media, songs, peer groups etc. it is such a waste.

[vandergraafk]

Clearly, Sam I Am is a better example of suicide by witch. I don't think there's any dispute there. Here, the interpretation is more subtle. Again, nothing in your transcript leads me to conclude that Phoebe knows what the potion will do. In fact, she only has Cole's (goading) assurance that the potion would do to him as he had tried to do to them. (Yes, a casually flung energy ball that, if it had the intensity of the ones flung at the Source in Brain Drain, Piper and Paige would have been dead.)

You underplay the verbal as if that didn't really matter. Indeed, it is just these sort of verbal attacks that have often led to police overreactions that gave rise to suicide by cop concerns.

[jate88]

Pubsey has a point. Have you had to deal with that stuff personally? Maybe your a mother who doesn't want their kids brainwashed by that stuff is why you don't like that point of view.

[vandergraafk]

What have my own experiences to do with any of this? I fail to see the relevance. What is at issue is the interpretation. Pubesy has one point of view. I have a different.

As I indicated, to make my point solely for Centennial Charmed is not easy. Yet, seen within the context of Sam I Am and The Importance of Being Phoebe where there is no doubt that Cole is attempting suicide by witch, the events of Centennial Charmed can be interpreted as I have suggested.

[pubesy]

(jate...... i can assure you i am no where near ready for motherhood!)

i underplay the verbal goading because as far as i (and the law) is concerned, it is not a relevant excuse for suicide by cop. the police are trained to resist such verbal abuse, goading, and reverse psychology.

If a cop shot to kill a criminal who was holding a gun - (lowered by his side, not aiming at anything) because he said to the cop something along the lines of "shoot me, you know you want to" or "you won't shoot me, i know you couldn't" then that cop can be accused of murder or manslaughter. at the very least - he would definately lose his badge.
it would definately not be considered suicide by cop.


to be considered suicide by cop there has to be a real immediate threat of death. shoot or be shot. it would be pretty terrible to think that a cop could shoot down a criminal- just because the criminal hurt the cop's feelings

i am not saying that police officers have never shot down a criminal due to verbal goading.......but there are usually other reasons also. there would most likely be a full investigation....and most likely a police cover up.


...... and anyway, it is inconclusive as to whether cole really meant the final words he said to phoebe. he may or may not have really meant them.

[vandergraafk]

You're still missing the point here. Suicide by cop incidents are incidents where justifiable homicide cannot usually be claimed. That's why citizen review boards and the police hierarchy (internal affairs) are so concerned about incidents that appear to be cases where the victim provoked an (illegal) overreaction in order to accomplish a primary goal (suicide).

Here's an excerpt of the article in Wikipedia. This really describes what we are talking about here.

Overview

"The idea of committing suicide in this manner is based on trained procedures of law enforcement officers with the use of deadly force. In jurisdictions where officials are so armed, there are usually set circumstances where they will predictably use deadly force against a threat to themselves or others. This form of suicide functions by exploiting this trained reaction. The most common is pointing a firearm at a police officer or an innocent person, which would reasonably provoke that officer or others to fire on them in defense. However, many variants exist, for example attacking with a knife or other hand-weapon, trying to run an officer or other person down with a car, or trying to trigger a presumed explosive device.

The factor that the entire phenomenon hinges on is the person's state of mind, and their desire to end their own life. This can be difficult to determine after the fact if they have died. Some cases are obvious, such as pointing an unloaded or non-functioning gun (such as a toy gun or starter's pistol) at officers, or the presence of a suicide note. Some suspects brazenly announce their intention to die before they act (e.g., the iconic declaration, "You'll never take me alive!"). However, many cases can be more difficult to determine, as some suspects with the desire to die will actually use deadly force on and even kill people before being killed (often romanticized by the expression "to die with one's boots on"). Many law enforcement training programs have added sections to specifically address handling these situations if officers suspect that the subject is attempting to goad them into lethal force."

[jate88]

Well people's past experiences determine whether they think an archetype is good or bad. There has to be something in both of your pasts that you can use to associate with that event to try and guess what the motives of Cole are.

[vandergraafk]

Hardly. I approach this purely as literary analysis.

Having said that, however, I must admit that what I see or choose to interpret is a reflection of what I have read (literature), reflected upon (literary analysis) and observed in society at large (media). Consequently, there is no "objective" approach to a "text".

[pubesy]

jate, i must say, i as well am approaching this subject in an objective manner, rather than letting my opinions influence my decisions. I stress to you jate that this is not vander and i being nasty to each other, this is two individuals debating on an issue. should you wish to add further to the discussion, please feel free.


vander, i must be misinterpreting what you are writing, as what i am reading does not make any real sense. could you explain further in regards to this sentence?
"Suicide by cop incidents are incidents where justifiable homicide cannot usually be claimed."

what is your definition of justifiable homicide? are you suggesting that suicide by cop is justifiable homicide?

and as far as the wikipedia article is concerned, i had previously read that article. I read that article in a way that says that the criminal must do something to cause an immediate mortal threat to the police officer before it can be called SBC (even if the criminal points a toy gun....that gun at the time was perceived to be real.

but seeing i share quite a bit of contempt for wiki being a "reputable" source (you have to admit, that paragraph was quite vague), i consulted another site.

here is as follows

Suicide-by-cop: A colloquial term used to describe a suicidal incident whereby the suicidal subject engages in a consciously, life-threatening behavior to the degree that it compels a police officer to respond with deadly force.
lthough simplified, the criteria below may be used to qualify the suicide
* The suicidal subject must demonstrate the intent to die
* The suicidal subject must have a clear understanding of the finality of the act.
* The suicidal subject must confront a law enforcement official to the degree that it compels that officer to act with deadly force.
* The suicidal subject actually dies - otherwise it is an attempted suicide by cop.
www.suicidebycop.com/7922.html?*session*id*key*=*session*id*val*

i do not believe the bolded criteria have been met with cole. he was not acting at that immediate point in time in such a manner that would give phoebe NO CHOICE but to protect her own life from an immediate life threatening action.

and it could also possibly be argued (if i wanted to be pedantic) that at that specific moment in time, cole did not demonstrate the intent to die.

maybe this is more appropriate to the case of cole:

Victim-precipitated homicide: A term which implies a shared responsibility between two (or more parties) whereby a suicidal subject provokes his or her own death by means of another.

phoebe was provoked to throw the potion, by cole's assuming phoebe's "unrequited love" which she obviously did not have.

i would be more inclined to use this definition.

[vandergraafk]

Except that you will need to distinguish between VPH and SBC (victim precipitated homicide versus suicide by cop). The distinction is more than semantic. As your second source demonstrates, from a legal perspective, suicide by cop in order to exonerate the shooting officer must incorporate each of the aspects you cited. If not, then the incident becomes a VPH, whereby the use of force was not justified. That's what I meant when I indicated that many situations that have given rise to suicide by cop turn out to be - upon closer inspection - not incidents where the "suicide" indicators are present.

Just yesterday we had another cop involved shooting in Inglewood (an urban suburb of LA). The victim had a toy gun strapped around his waist. The officer saw it. Eventually, the victim was gunned down. Was it suicide by cop? It depends. Not all of the details are fully known. The gaps are especially crucial.

My argument, as it pertains to Charmed, is that in Sam I Am there can be no doubt that Cole attempted suicide by witch. Each of the indicators is met. This endeavor continued through the Importance of Being Phoebe. The last link is Centennial Charmed. I regard this as the final attempt to achieve what hadn't been accomplished in the previous three episodes.

As for the sentence in question: what I am saying is that the number of claimed incidents of suicide by cop is greater than the actual number of real incidents. To use a Venn Diagram, the larger circle are VPHs and the smaller, inscribed circle contains the real SBCs. That's why law enforcement is sensitive to these cases. If not scrutinized carefully, they would seem to give legal license for the use of lethal force under the fig leaf of alleged suicidal tendencies.

[jate88]

Hmmmmm I'm confused..... I only have a high school diploma. The few facts I picked up in highschool don't make me that smart. How does literary analysis work again. I always thought it was impossible for a person to be a 100% unbias. Even if they were don't your first few stories that you first began to like have to be based on your past experiences. If they're your first few then you couldn't have analyzed them from a different story.

[vandergraafk]

Well, let's start with the obvious. There is no such thing as a truly objective analysis. We always have to select what we choose to emphasize. That selection may reflect our own experiences, our own training or our own ideology.

Literary analysis, such as it is, involves looking at standard elements that you probably discussed in any high school literature class: plot, setting, character development, pacing, figurative use of language, etc. Beyond these basics, there are elements of pyschology, sociology, economics and politics. For example, Animal Farm might just be a book about fictional animals who have taken control of a farm. Instead, it is read as a political allegory: a piece by piece dissection of totalitarianism. Lord of the Flies, on the other hand, might be viewed as the story of a bunch of boys stranded on an island. However, psychologically tinged analysis sees this book as a reflection of sexual awakening.

The most difficult, perhaps, of all literary analysis is that which emerged out of France during the 60s. This space is too brief to cover such a vast topic. However, one of the tools development was called semiotics. This is a different way of saying: reading between the lines. In other words, the focus could shift to what was not said during a text. For example, it is pretty obvious that the Avatar story arc is an attack on totalitarianism. However, what's missing here is any notion that there might be another, non-totalitarian means by which a demon-free utopia might be achieved. As a result, the Elders' insistence that such is not possible is, in reality, simply the assertion that American ideology is correct: there will always be evil (problems in civil society) as long as individuals are allowed free will (the pursuit of economic wealth). Any attempt to achieve a society that diminishes, if not outright eliminates, evil will invariably end up in totalitarian mind-control. How very 50s!

[jate88]

I've read that word semiotics in a book I just purchased. The book also said some stuff about humans only being able to view the world in a symbolic format and that a non-symbolic world might exist out there. However since we humans use symbols to communicate we can't tell anyone else about it when we experience it.

I just like to read books and watch tv shows to be able to see what archetypes I can pick out. So that way I can learn to string together my own archetypes , combine that with the archetypes in my past experiences, and hope that makes me a good story writer.

Sorry about all that. I didn't mean to insult anyone. Sorry if I did. You can get back to your original discussion now before I derail this thread.

[vandergraafk]

Archetype is a rather big word. I have an idea what it means. I wonder whether my understanding corresponds with what you intend, especially since you used it five times in your last posting. Care to elaborate?

[pubesy]

As a result, the Elders' insistence that such is not possible is, in reality, simply the assertion that American ideology is correct: there will always be evil (problems in civil society) as long as individuals are allowed free will (the pursuit of economic wealth).

lol...... i thought i was the only one who picked this up! maybe i am not the only "weirdo" who reads too much into American TV. how very capitalistic and left wing this show is - i am sure without even intending to be!

and jate..... don't dismiss your own education... there is no law anywhere that says you have to have a tertiary education to participate in an informed debate!

but.....back on topic!

In reference to you veinn diagram explanation, i agree completely. i am positive there have been a few cases where police have pled suicide by cop rather than victim perpetrated homicide....to save their own arses! it wouldn't surprise me completely. also i am sure that there have been a few trigger-happy inexperienced cops who have not analyzed the situation in the same way as an experience cop might. (in no way am i saying the new cop has committed murder...)


and the major difference between SBC and VPH? i see as follows:

with SBC the "criminal" commits an act that would put the "cop" (or hostages etc) in immediate physical danger...whether the danger is actual (real weapon)or not (fake weapon).

hence if cole had an energy ball bouncing around in his hand threatening to use it (whether it is big or not) and phoebe threw the potion then it would be SBC/SBW.

in VPH while there is no argument that there is danger surrounding the cop (or hostages etc), the cop is not in immediate physical danger (ie no weapon is raised....the gun the criminal holds is lowered) however, the sho that is fired by the cop is due to the joint responsibility of the criminal "niggling or taunting" the cop, as well as the cop being trigger happy.

ie cole was taunting phoebe. however phoebe was not in direct danger when she threw the potion


is that making the definitions clearer?

[vandergraafk]

Yes, but Cole had already thrown one energy ball. How could Phoebe conclude that he wouldn't thrown another if she didn't act?

[pubesy]

that too could be said of the criminal who has already fired a shot with the gun, but now is holding it down by his side. but yet, the cop still could not fire to kill. sure, he can be armed and aim his gun towads the criminal - but he cannot shoot, unless the crim goes to raise his gun.

if cole was materializing an energy ball at the time the potion was thrown, then sure - it would have been SBW.