|
|
Post by vandergraafk on May 24, 2008 11:21:03 GMT -5
In Brain Drain, Cole, the human form of the hybrid demon Belthazor/Cole, is able to fling fireball after fireball at a morphed Source in the guise of Alastair, a chameleon demon. After vanquishing the Oracle with a huge blast, conjured in a fashion similar to that used by Firestarters (see Forever Charmed and the Last Temptation of Christy, as well as Lost and Bound), Cole is able to wound the Source enough so that his mind control over Piper is broken. In the next episode, Black as Cole, Cole reveals himself as Belthazor in order to fend off Sykes, an upper level demon with similar skills to Belthazor, but lacking in the latter's long experience as an assassin. During this episode, Cole warns Phoebe that should he morph into Belthazor to defeat Sykes, he might cross a point of no return. He might not be able to morph back into his human form. Unfortunately, the juxtaposition of the two episodes makes no sense. Why could Cole launch fireball after fireball, including the massive fireball that takes out the Oracle, and remain in his human form, while Belthazor, taking on a lesser demon, risks losing his ability to morph back?
|
|
|
|
Post by =]!The!:)(:Charmed:)(:!One
Posts: 4,123
|
Post by ljones on May 25, 2008 13:29:15 GMT -5
Cole was never more powerful than the Source. If that had been the case, he could have easily killed the Source in "Brain Drain".
I believe that what happened in "Black As Cole" was nothing more than CHARMED's typical bad continuity in its writing.
|
|
|
|
Post by whitelightertony on May 25, 2008 14:09:35 GMT -5
Perhaps Cole's attack on The Source and The Oracle in "Brain Drain" was defensive, whereas his reversion to Belthazor in order to kill Sykes would have been offensive.
If Cole uses his powers to kill in a defensive way, he retains his free will - - but if he uses his powers to kill offensively (as embracing Belthazor would have required him to do) then he risks not being able to revert back to his mortal side?
|
|
ljones
Whitelighter
Posts: 4,123
|
Post by ljones on May 25, 2008 23:52:17 GMT -5
I believe that Cole had exercised his free will in both episodes - whether he was trying to kill the Source in "Brain Drain" or the other half-demon in "Black As Cole".
|
|
|
|
Post by vandergraafk on May 27, 2008 14:35:25 GMT -5
I don't quite buy the free will angle, whitelightertony, since you are using it to explain a difference that is more specious than real. As ljones pointed out, Cole's actions in Brain Drain are hardly defensive. He launches fireball after fireball in order to distract or even wound the Source enough so that he (the Source) would have to break off his mind experiment with Piper. Besides, the massive fireball conjured to destroy the Source can hardly be described as "defensive".
Nor can I accept the argument that the Source was inferior - in terms of power - to Cole or Sykes, for that matter. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Otherwise, either Belthazor or Sykes or anyone in the Brotherhood could have taken out the Source. Here I prefer the argument advanced in another thread that the coronation conveys all the powers that previous holders of the crown (the Source) had.
|
|
|
|
Post by whitelightertony on May 28, 2008 0:49:02 GMT -5
The difference is that he didn't need to revert to his Belthazor identity in "Brain Drain."
My semantics may have been poorly chosen, but I still stand by my conceptual delineation of the two scenarios.
When Cole went after The Source in "Brain Drain," he was clearly trying to save Piper.
Although Cole was trying to protect the sisters from Sykes in "Black as Cole," it required him to adopt the persona of his bloodthirsty alter ego. As we saw, it was difficult for him to come back from that.
|
|
ljones
Whitelighter
Posts: 4,123
|
Post by ljones on May 28, 2008 17:19:19 GMT -5
It just doesn't make sense to me that Cole would have to revert to his demonic form in order to kill another human/demon hybrid. It seemed unecessary . . . and a little contrived on the writers' part. And if Cole was trying to kill Sykes to protect the sisters, how is that offensive? He was defending them. It wasn't an act of self-defense. But it was an act of defense.
|
|
|
|
Post by vandergraafk on May 28, 2008 19:03:19 GMT -5
Fourever Charmed suggested in my site a way out of this dilemma. Although she, too, is of the opinion that this might well have been another inconsistency, Fourever Charmed has asserted that since the two stories are back to back and perhaps linked closely in time, Cole was drained from his ferocious attack on Alastair (the Source) in Brain Drain. As a result, when he went up against a slightly lesser, but still powerful upper level demon, Cole could only vanquish Sykes by appearing as Belthazor in order to summon all the powers at his (diminished) disposal.
|
|
|
|
Post by whitelightertony on May 29, 2008 3:35:40 GMT -5
Another explanation could be that Cole knew he probably wouldn't be strong enough to kill The Source in "Brain Drain," and he was just hoping to wound The Source badly enough to get him away from Piper.
Whereas in "Black as Cole," Cole knew there was a chance he could vanquish Sykes because they were equals (demons of similar rank)...but Cole needed to tap into his demonic persona in order to muster the level of hatred necessary to vanquish Sykes.
|
|
ljones
Whitelighter
Posts: 4,123
|
Post by ljones on May 29, 2008 9:34:28 GMT -5
I think that Kern and the author of "Black As Cole" wanted to show how dangerous and uncontrollable Cole's demonic side can be with contrived writing. I'm sorry, but none of the excuses really make any sense to me.
|
|
|
|
Post by vandergraafk on May 29, 2008 19:52:04 GMT -5
If you are correct, whitelightertony, then you interpret the massive fireball not as an "overuse" of Cole/Belthazor's powers by Cole, but simply the required amount of force needed to severely wound the Source. In other words, Cole could summon such force to wound the Source, but not the same amount of force to vanquish a less experienced Sykes. I don't know if I buy that.
|
|
pubesy
Witch
"If I could dream at all, it would be about you. And I'm not ashamed of it." - Edward Cullen
Posts: 1,171
|
Post by pubesy on May 29, 2008 20:14:47 GMT -5
the episodes are too close together for it to be a writing flaw. they would have to be pretty bad writer monkeys to do that! i agree with the attempted vanquish of Alistair, cole was never really trying to vanquish the source. all he was trying to do was break the connection between him and piper. cole would have had to be incredibly stupid to think HE could vanquish the source with a single fireball...no matter how big. however, cole remains in his human form at this time. he does not need to morph into belthazor. he retains his own human persona. however, with skyes, it is very different. Skyes is incredibly similar to belthazor. cole does not just want to wound skyes, but kill him. in order to kill skyes, he must morph into belthazor. not only physically, but emotionally, and mentally to. he must return to the mind frame of the killer without remorse he used to be. he has to let go of all his human emotions, even his love for phoebe. cole has not been at that demonic mind frame for quite a while now. at this point in time he has not yet tested how strong his love for phoebe is, and is worried that love will not be enough for him to return to his weaker human form. cole is worried that his love may not be able to overcome the pleasure and lust for power belthazor receives when he kills. it does make sense, to me, anyway!  |
|
|
|
Post by whitelightertony on May 30, 2008 17:00:15 GMT -5
The difference would be Cole's intent when he used his magic against each of them.
Cole never had any intent to kill The Source in "Brain Drain." Whereas in "Black as Cole," he was willing to kill Sykes...but because he had a conscience, he needed to tap into Belthazor in order to do it.
As Pubesy pointed out, Cole never chose to morph into Belthazor during "Brain Drain," so of course the results are going to be different.
|
|
ljones
Whitelighter
Posts: 4,123
|
Post by ljones on May 30, 2008 19:24:08 GMT -5
Why do you think that Cole never had any intention of killing the Source?  Sorry, but "Black as Cole" . . . contrived writing. It has my vote. |
|
|
|
Post by vandergraafk on May 30, 2008 19:36:23 GMT -5
Let's consider the question of whether Cole had the intent to kill Alastair (the Source) in Brain Drain. It is true, as I and others have noted, that the most immediate goal of Cole was to distract the Source enough so that his mind manipulation of Piper would cease. That said, it took an awful lot of power to even accomplish what Cole did: break the hold of the Source over Piper's mind and wound the Source severely.
Yet, once embarked down this path, that is the use of an ever-increasing amount of power culminating in the massive fireball launched as a final effort by Cole, wouldn't it be suicidal to seek only the wounding of the Source? Cole's "betrayal" of the Source by helping Phoebe escape from the Underworld during the period between All Hell Breaks Loose and Charmed Again was bad enough. It prompted the dispatch of legions of bounty hunters after Cole. Obviously, they hadn't succeeded. But, whose to say that a now wounded Source would not dispatch perhaps a demon on the par of Shax to vanquish Cole/Belthazor?
Thus, Cole, the cagey and clever reformed "demon" that he was, surely knew that anything short of vanquish of the Source by Cole would only buy the sisters and himself a brief respite. Sooner or later, the Charmed Ones and Cole would face the wrath of the Source in its full fury. As a result, Cole had to hope that not only might he distract the Source enough to break off mind control, he might also need to muster enough power to vanquish the Source period. Even with the massive fireball summoned, Cole, alas, was unable to accomplish this goal.
|
|
pubesy
Witch
"If I could dream at all, it would be about you. And I'm not ashamed of it." - Edward Cullen
Posts: 1,171
|
Post by pubesy on May 31, 2008 8:37:23 GMT -5
don't think cole was ever thinking that far ahead. he was just concerned about saving piper by breaking the connection.
at that point in time, i dont think consequences of breaking the connection and destroying the source's plans were fresh on his mind!
|
|
|
|
Post by vandergraafk on May 31, 2008 22:59:01 GMT -5
Unfortunately, that sells Cole short. I don't buy it!
|
|
pubesy
Witch
"If I could dream at all, it would be about you. And I'm not ashamed of it." - Edward Cullen
Posts: 1,171
|
Post by pubesy on Jun 1, 2008 3:22:03 GMT -5
it is not meant to sell cole short. with adrenalin and all rushing though your body it is not possible to think things cryptically or logically. (though as a demon did he have adrenalin?) he was just doing whatever he could to save piper. and anyway....since when was any plan created by one of the charmed ones (or most demons for that matter) ever cryptically and logically thought out?  |
|
|
|
Post by whitelightertony on Jun 1, 2008 16:15:29 GMT -5
Because Cole knew he wasn't powerful enough to kill The Source. He probably realized the best he could do would be to get Piper out of the Underworld by wounding The Source badly enough.
I'll concede that maybe Cole hoped he might somehow be able to vanquish The Source on his own. That being said, I think Cole knew it was a long shot. If Cole was powerful enough to kill The Source, wouldn't he have done it already?
And I think The Source sending more assassins after Cole was a moot point. By that point in time ("Brain Drain"), Cole already had every bounty hunter from the Underworld after him. He was already a prime target on The Source's hit list. How would incapacitating The Source with a severe wound make things any worse for Cole? If anything, it would buy Cole and the Halliwells more time (as it indeed appeared to) to figure out a way to vanquish The Source for good.
|
|
![=]!The!:)(:Charmed:)(:!One
