BINDING POWERS?

[vandergraafk]

With Season 4's Lost and Bound, Charmed directly confronted the issue of whether adolescents should have their powers bound. Ultimately, Tyler opts to allow Piper to bind his powers.

Yet, the issue of whether to bind adolescent powers goes far beyond the specifics of Lost and Bound. True, in this episode, we become aware that adolescents might have difficulty controlling their powers as powers are tied to emotions and teens and pre-teens are less emotionally fixed than adults. On the other hand, not even the most aware of teens could fend off the neverending efforts of greedy adults (Tyler's adoptive parents and the demon Ludlow whose obsession with gaining control of Tyler's powers and marshalling them in service of the Source) endangers Tyler) to exploit adolescent powers to their own ends.

Piper agonizes over this very issue when confronted by the great powers that her own first born son has and has exhibited from inside the womb. On the one hand, she is favorably impressed by the nascent child's ability to defend both mother and fetus. On the other, as events during Season 6 demonstrated ad nauseum, many, many demons wished to appropriate the child's powers or the child itself in order to burnish their own demonic credentials. Grudgingly, Piper realizes that binding Wyatt's powers would not necessarily end demonic attacks. It would simply expand the range of targets to include the witch who had cast the binding spell since death of that spell would release the child's bound powers.

Both Prue and Piper are awestruck by the abilities that little Prue and litte Piper display in That 70s Episode. Given their own recent acquisition of powers upon the death of Grams and the incantation of the power of three, Piper and Prue wonder how their lives would have been different if they had been allowed to develop their powers throughout adolescence. Perhaps Grams would have been able to fend off attacks initiated by the Source to destroy an incipient power of three before it reached maturity. Yet, at this stage Piper and Prue's reaction is governed by their own experience with persistent warlock and demon attacks on adult sisters struggling to gain the full measure of their powers.

The issue of whether to bind adolescent powers is not easily resolved. Arguments can be brought to bear on both sides. Can adolescents handle the great responsibility that accompanies great power? Do they have the wherewithal and the foresight to protect and defend themselves from demonic attacks? To what extent would knowledge of and the ability to access their powers prevent adolescents from enjoying the innocence of youth?

[whitelightertony]

I would think it depends on the magical adolescent's maturity level.

Tyler had been presumably shipped from one foster home to another, under the care of foster parents who were less than loving. He may not have been emotionally equipped to handle magic at that point in his life.

After a couple of years with a nurturing family, Tyler could decide he's ready to reclaim his firestarter powers.

[pubesy]

there are arguments both for and against, and i don't think there is only one concrete answer.

children and adolescents do not yet have a fully developed brain, especially in the frontal lobe, where logical thought planning, mood appropriation and other mature characteristics stem from. hence adolescents are extremely prone to rash and impulse decisions, inappropriate ways of handling stress, identity conflicts and mood swings. (as i am sure most of us can remember well- or are still going through). adolescence doesn't finish until 22 - 23 years old.

lets think of the typical 13 - 16 year old. (well at least one or 2 of these traits will fit everyone). Mood swings, changes in peer groups, changes in music/clothes/places to visit. untrusting and weary of others, gossiping, un trusting of parents. Spending a long amount of time in their room alone watching TV/internet/music/phone. Experimenting with drugs/sex/alcohol.


and then to expect them to be able to have a large amount of "control" over their emotions, to preven exposure.

thats a pretty big ask, isn't it?

then not to mention, alot of psychosis and other mental disorders tend to be diagnosed in adolescence.

obviously, there are also alot of positive things about adolescence, like being able to find your identity, and learning from lived experiences as well as the lasting relationships that you do form with others.

its just that for some - magic may be too much.

[jate88]

Aug 26, 2008 4:15:57 GMT -5 pubesy said:

there are arguments both for and against, and i don't think there is only one concrete answer.

children and adolescents do not yet have a fully developed brain, especially in the frontal lobe, where logical thought planning, mood appropriation and other mature characteristics stem from. hence adolescents are extremely prone to rash and impulse decisions, inappropriate ways of handling stress, identity conflicts and mood swings. (as i am sure most of us can remember well- or are still going through). adolescence doesn't finish until 22 - 23 years old.

lets think of the typical 13 - 16 year old. (well at least one or 2 of these traits will fit everyone). Mood swings, changes in peer groups, changes in music/clothes/places to visit. untrusting and weary of others, gossiping, un trusting of parents. Spending a long amount of time in their room alone watching TV/internet/music/phone. Experimenting with drugs/sex/alcohol.


and then to expect them to be able to have a large amount of "control" over their emotions, to preven exposure.

thats a pretty big ask, isn't it?

then not to mention, alot of psychosis and other mental disorders tend to be diagnosed in adolescence.

obviously, there are also alot of positive things about adolescence, like being able to find your identity, and learning from lived experiences as well as the lasting relationships that you do form with others.

its just that for some - magic may be too much.

Hey I remember some of this stuff. I'm 20 so that means almost done with all that drama

I figured that powers was just a metaphor for all of that stuff.

[vandergraafk]

Point well taken, pubesy. Even a 22-year old Chris is subject to mood swings as he viciously takes it out on Leo in Spin City. True, he was under the influence. But, there was also more than met the eye.

[pubesy]

but it is not only the mood swings and unstable emotions that are would make keeping the powers a secret and controllable so difficult. Obviously emotion is an enormous factor on the development of control over power.

but what about the mental aspect? Adolescents, at one stage or another, have an enormously strong desire to find like minds, or "fit in." while they may "rebel" against their family, or social group they currently fit in, they still desire to find "like minds" or another peer or social group to fit. whether that be finding like minded people who are Jocks, preps, nerds, drug abusers, sexually promiscuous, etc. Adolescents (and humans in general) need to feel they "belong."

Having to hide a power away would obviously make the adolescent feel isolated, and different from others. this would then translate, impacting on their emotional status - hence the powers would be even more impossible to control.

and i really don't think that is fair.


IF a child/adolescent were to be able to cope with the pressures of having/controlling a power (especially if it is an offensive power) then:

*the child would have to have a strong connection with another group which DO also have some sort of powers, where the adolescent CAN talk/show/share experience with powers (whether that be family or a school or a peer outreach program)

*if the child is relatively emotionally stable and mature - some adolescents are naturally more than others

*if they have effective stress coping strategies in place,

*if they live in a supportive, accepting environment

*if they do not have a mental health/emotional health problem.

[ljones]

Grudgingly, Piper realizes that binding Wyatt's powers would not necessarily end demonic attacks.

I wonder how Piper came to that conclusion, considering that she and her sisters had never faced any demonic attacks, after their powers had been bound between Phoebe's birth and the events of "Something Wicca Comes This Way".

[pubesy]

between phoebe's birth and SWTWC no one knew that the halliwells were the charmed ones. Grams had a few ideas that they might be, but she could not be certain. they could have been just 3 witches with powers.

hence the demonic underworld would not have known either - so there was no real reason to send masses of bounty hunters after them. then again - there could have been demonic attacks directed at the girls in their childhood - but they were none the wiser, as grams and her coven had effectively defended the girls without them knowing.

but anyway - back on topic...

[whitelightertony]

I think Aviva would be another perfect example of someone whose powers (albeit not acquired through genetic means) overwhelmed her.

And as pubesy suggested, Aviva indeed sought out a peer (Phoebe) so she could feel a sense of belonging.

[vandergraafk]

Pubesy, it may be a side issue. However, I cannot swallow the notion that Grams had no idea these girls would be the Charmed Ones. Such a claim is certainly not supported by the events depicted in Pre-Witched. Grams wants to use a potion to damage their powers permanently because she fears they are not ready. Ready for what, you might ask? Ready to assume the mantle as the Charmed Ones and ready to face the incipient demonic and warlock attacks.

Was the Source aware as to the possibility that the Charmed Ones might emerge? I believe he was. Certainly, the Seer or the Oracle might have clued him in about such a possibility. Second, the Source already dispatched Rex and Hannah to take them out as novice Charmed Ones. The suspicion was there (i.e., among Rex, Hannah and the Source) that the Halliwells were the Charmed Ones. Quickly, Rex and Hannah confirmed the suspicion.

As for why Piper might conclude that binding Wyatt's powers might not work, I think we only need reflect on the events in The Day the Magic Died. Even before the magical child was born, demonic forces were out to capture him. The Chrone, even though she had demanded that no demon touch the child, nevertheless could not resist the temptation to learn the magnitude of the powers that this child would have now and in the future (if Piper did not bind the powers) or later after Piper released the bind.

Finally, pubesy, I did not wish to diminish your points regarding adolescence. I simply wished to note that even after adolescence had more or less been mastered, mood swings such as the type exhibited by a 22 year old Chris would still be a problem.

Let me suggest further that here's where the differences between males and females is relevant. From all of my experience and everything I've learned, women exhibit adult maturity ahead of males. As a result, the Charmed Ones take a more mature approach to their powers than a like-aged Chris. Okay, so compare only Phoebe and Chris then.

[pubesy]

Vander, i believe the depth of knowledge grams had re: the girls being charmed was very murky and by no means concrete.

i believe that she knew it may be a real possibility that they may be charmed, but unless the girls could co-operate, and bond as sisters, even if they did carry the charmed "gene" so to speak, they could not possibly be charmed - rather they would only be 3 witches with active powers.
hence the reason she bound their powers.

also, it seems strange that if grams DID in fact have the concrete knowledge that eventually the girls would be charmed - then why, the first time she saw the girls did she act shocked and pleasantly surprised that they were charmed?
this surprise and shock was also reiterated in forever charmed, when piper appeared with coops ring to have grams help save paige and phoebe? grams was alking to a then 8-9 year old piper - who had her powers bound - surely she would have known by then?

and i agree - the underworld may have also had an inkling of the girls being charmed - they may have been fooled into thinking their powers were stripped?

however i see piper's choice to bind wyatt's powers as completely different. the girls were already charmed and a major threat to the underworld. Wyatt was the first born son of a charmed one and prophesied to be one of great power. the underworld would not make the same mistake twice.


and as far as adolescent makes and females - dont be fooled! some females can be completely immature for their age too! but on the majority i agree. it has to do with the late onset of puberty in males and the high levels of testosterone in the blood stream. testosterone is also known for stimulating aggression and impulse decision making as well as sexual stimulation, obviously. whereas females are hitting puberty at around 12 nowadays, and males 14-15. I guess biologically, females need to have that extra bit of maturity in a way - considering that potentially they could rearing a child of their own at as young as 14-15! pretty scary, huh?

[jate88]

I was told that girl hit puberity around 11 or 12, guys hit puberity around 12 0r 13, and that guys catch up to the girls around 15. Of course that was back in 1999 when I heard that.

[vandergraafk]

I suppose it turns on the word concrete. First, we would have to know how many times there had been three sisters in the Halliwell/Warren lineage. Whitelightertony surely has something to say about this. Second, until Patty passed away, no one could be certain that these girls would be the Charmed Ones. Suppose she had four children? Oh wait. She did!

Since Grams knew that Patty had given birth to four girls, she couldn't be sure that these would be the Charmed Ones. Did Paige count? After all, she was only a half-sister. Would the three full sisters ever get their act together? Yet, by all indications, Grams acted as if these might be the Charmed Ones.

Now, the fact that she was surprised in 75 is not surprising. After all, Patty was still alive and Grams probably agreed with Patty that a third pregnancy was "medically impossible". The fact that Patty got pregnant nevertheless ought to have given Grams reason to pause. Maybe there was something special about these three.

The fact that Grams was a co-conspirator in hiding the offspring of a whitelighter and a witch lends even more credibility to the notion that Grams suspected her three granddaughters might be the Charmed Ones. Why else should one hide a half-sibling? Fear of the Elders? Give me a break.

The Elders had no power to annoint the Charmed Ones. Hence, the birth of a half-sibling could no more prevent their emergence as their opposition could prevent Paige's birth. Destiny has its own way, and the Elders, in the final analysis, are full of hot air. Besides, the invention of the Marks lineage in Season 8 undercuts the whole prohibition on whitelighter/witch liaisons.

Sam's attack on the Elders in Sam I Am never has rung fully persuasive. Yes, he could have been punished for violating the Whitelighter Handbook. And, yes, factions of the Elders could have formed in opposition to allowing the birth of this baby. But the Elders never would have approved of infanticide. What anguishes Sam is the fact that he was powerless to prevent Patty's death. And, the fact that he and Patty had given away Paige to protect her from what exactly meant that Sam had nothing to remind him of his triste with Patty.

Patty and Sam gave away Paige to protect the possibility that Prue, Piper and Phoebe were meant to become the Charmed Ones. Patty already knew of this from That 70s Episode. And, unless you accept Whitelightertony's unpersuasive spell cast by Grams to erase all memory of this incident, then Patty will know, as well as Grams will too, that these are the Charmed Ones. The existence of Paige could only mess with their destiny, unless, of course, fate had something else in store: the death of Prue.

Finally, Forever Charmed botches Grams' surprise discovery of the Charmed Ones because it fails to explain why a Grams who knew of the Charmed Ones in 75 and needs to cast a spell upon the birth of Phoebe to bind their powers suddenly knows nothing in 1983. Whitelightertony tried to fix this problem with Grams' spell casting. The problem with that thesis, however, is that approximately 9 months will have gone by between awareness of the fact and casting the memory erasing spell. In my view, that knowledge would have been embedded in too many other actions and memories as to make any memory erasing spell dangerous, if not impossible.

[whitelightertony]

also, it seems strange that if grams DID in fact have the concrete knowledge that eventually the girls would be charmed - then why, the first time she saw the girls did she act shocked and pleasantly surprised that they were charmed?

You mean when their future selves introduced themselves to her in "That 70's Episode"? Probably because it was her first REAL confirmation from time-travelers that her granddaughters were indeed the Charmed Ones.

this surprise and shock was also reiterated in forever charmed, when piper appeared with coops ring to have grams help save paige and phoebe? grams was alking to a then 8-9 year old piper - who had her powers bound - surely she would have known by then?

As VG mentioned, I believe that shortly after the events of "That 70's Episode" Patty and Penny cast a memory erasure spell on themselves -- possibly as a way to keep themselves from inadvertently spilling the secret to any of the girls before they came of age.

[whitelightertony]

First, we would have to know how many times there had been three sisters in the Halliwell/Warren lineage. Whitelightertony surely has something to say about this.

I don't think there ever were three sisters in a previous generation descended from Melinda Warren. Or, if there were, they also had brothers.

[pubesy]

Aug 30, 2008 3:12:13 GMT -5 whitelightertony said:

I don't think there ever were three sisters in a previous generation descended from Melinda Warren. Or, if there were, they also had brothers.

i thought there were no males in the warren lineage

[vandergraafk]

I think he was only broaching it as a possibility. We have Grams' assurance that the line was only female. However, whitelightertony has an extensive family tree that you can easily access at charmedverse.proboards74.com.

The closest I believe they (the Warren lineage) ever got was with the three cousins (from the 20s).

[whitelightertony]

Also, according to the Warren family tree there were male descendants of Melinda Warren.

Grams probably just didn't believe the males in the family were capable of being witches.

[vandergraafk]

Thanks for clarifying a critical point. Hence, it is easier to understand Grams' hostility towards baby Wyatt in Necromancing the Stone. Previously, there had never been an example of a male witch in the Warren family history. Wyatt represented a complete break with this tradition. The fact that Wyatt was the product of a relationship between a whitelighter and a witch would not have mattered to Grams since she already had an example of a similar union: Paige. The only difference, something Grams was unaware of, was the birth of Wyatt on a special day (according to the sorcerer).

[whitelightertony]

Previously, there had never been an example of a male witch in the Warren family history.

Not that they knew of, at least. Some of the male descendants might have been magical witches, but could have died at young ages before coming into their powers. Others might have been powerless "carriers." And a few might have possessed passive powers that didn't manifest themselves so blatantly, and those males themselves may never have realized they were witches.