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Post by sol on Oct 18, 2015 8:37:28 GMT -5
Blaise Pascal said that men are neither angels nor beasts, but angels and beasts at the same time Could we love only angels? I doubt it You're right about that. But Cole was much more demon than Leo was angel. We are angels and beasts at the same time, so we are able to love even the dark side if we fall in love |
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Oct 18, 2015 9:58:34 GMT -5
Not the way Cole was a mercenary demon for over a hundred years. During that time I doubt if he had any sort of humanity at all. So to expect him to no longer be as demonic as he was is very unrealistic, Phoebe's biggest problem. She kept thinking he could be just the lawyer she loved, not the demon she hated, but the lawyer was the mask, the demon was the true Cole, as proven by how bored and useless he was when he no longer had his powers - just like Leo when he lost his. Leo was able to overcome that; Cole wasn't; hence why he embraced the Source's powers and became the Source rather than the lawyer.
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Post by erikamarie on Oct 19, 2015 9:08:44 GMT -5
I understand your thought and somehow I share it
Phoebe loved Cole without telling apart the human side from the evil, because she knew that never again Cole’ld return to being a mercenary killer, who’ld love a mercenary killer!
For this reason I think that the problem was Cole’s human side
Leo is different: he was human, a boy of the 40's
Raised by a normal family with the classic morals of that time, Leo wanted to help others, but also to become
a doctor, to get married and have children, as it was supposed to do a good guy in the Forties
So Leo didn’t encounter difficulties getting back human, he had a wife and two children, he was only taking up an ancient path
In addition, Leo had always considered himself as the support of the Charmed One, not the protector of his wife
Cole, respected member of a powerful Brotherhood, feared and reputed demon, was never raised as a human, he wasn’t able to accept to feel helpless, to adapt to social rules
If they ‘ld have the time to be a normal couple, without the anxiety of the Source or the bounty hunters, if they’ld plan a future instead of living freewheel, they’ld face these problems and understand if it was a good idea to get married
They hadn't the time to stop and think, especially Cole that,even if he hadn't become human, would have wondered if he was willing to live by the rules
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Post by latincoffee on Nov 14, 2016 3:10:13 GMT -5
I think Phoebe loved Cole but despised the fact that he was actually Balthazar ( when she found out)...she felt betrayed therefore creating a despise for Cole.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Nov 18, 2016 23:49:04 GMT -5
I think Phoebe loved Cole but despised the fact that he was actually Balthazar ( when she found out)...she felt betrayed therefore creating a despise for Cole. *nods* I can agree with that. |
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Post by ljones on Nov 20, 2016 15:01:31 GMT -5
So what are you saying? That Phoebe was only supposed to love a human? Was she expected to behave in a bigoted manner and judge those worthy of love, based on WHAT THEY WERE? She wasn't expected to love "the Other"? That's the message I'm getting.
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Post by unakite on Nov 22, 2016 16:00:20 GMT -5
I can not think there were politically correct obligations about those that a woman would love and I doubt that Phoebe could fall in love with Belthazor
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Post by ljones on Nov 23, 2016 22:59:24 GMT -5
Then she never loved Cole. You cannot separate Cole from Belthazor. They are one and the same. And this also tells me that Phoebe's idea of love was immature and narrow-minded.
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Post by Chrisaholic on Nov 24, 2016 10:36:59 GMT -5
Phoebe fell in love with Cole Turner, the attorney but still, as she found out that he was Belthazor too, it didn't change her feelings toward him. At least, I didn't have that impression. She even supported him when he fled from her as she was supposed to vanquish him in S3.
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Post by sol on Nov 25, 2016 1:18:30 GMT -5
What should be a mature idea of love?
Maybe turn in a full-time psychologist of your lover to understand his motivations?
Cole is the first true love of Phoebe, in life you can fall in love many times, but the first love is special
For your first love you commit nonsense that never you'll repeat more, you are agreeable to compromise that never again you'll repeat in your life, for this reason it's rare that the first love'ld become your life's partmer
Phoebe clings to this relationship with all her might because she had always felt unworthy of being loved and Cole loved her, it's a common and widespread emotional response
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Nov 25, 2016 8:56:08 GMT -5
What should be a mature idea of love? Maybe turn in a full-time psychologist of your lover to understand his motivations? Cole is the first true love of Phoebe, in life you can fall in love many times, but the first love is special For your first love you commit nonsense that never you'll repeat more, you are agreeable to compromise that never again you'll repeat in your life, for this reason it's rare that the first love'ld become your life's partmer Phoebe clings to this relationship with all her might because she had always felt unworthy of being loved and Cole loved her, it's a common and widespread emotional response But like so many first loves, that wasn't true love. She was in love with the idea of being in love with him because he loved her - in other words, infatuated - she didn't love him. She couldn't love a half-demon, only the lawyer he pretended to be, the one who wasn't the real Cole after being a mercenary demon for 100 years. A leopard doesn't change his spots that quickly or that easily and especially not for love. He can try, he can pretend, but he can't - not that quickly. That's where Kern blew it. If he had made Cole Cole Turner the lawyer who had just recently been turned into Belthazor, so the lawyer was the real one, it would've been totally different, but Cole is Belthazor much more than he is Cole and as a Charmed One, she couldn't love him and the way he kept using his powers. Her potion didn't get rid of Belthazor's evil, only his powers, the reason he gave in to the Source - he loved being strong and evil more than weak and good. |
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Post by magena on Nov 25, 2016 16:25:13 GMT -5
What should be a mature idea of love? Maybe turn in a full-time psychologist of your lover to understand his motivations? Cole is the first true love of Phoebe, in life you can fall in love many times, but the first love is special For your first love you commit nonsense that never you'll repeat more, you are agreeable to compromise that never again you'll repeat in your life, for this reason it's rare that the first love'ld become your life's partmer Phoebe clings to this relationship with all her might because she had always felt unworthy of being loved and Cole loved her, it's a common and widespread emotional response But like so many first loves, that wasn't true love. She was in love with the idea of being in love with him because he loved her - in other words, infatuated - she didn't love him. She couldn't love a half-demon, only the lawyer he pretended to be, the one who wasn't the real Cole after being a mercenary demon for 100 years. A leopard doesn't change his spots that quickly or that easily and especially not for love. He can try, he can pretend, but he can't - not that quickly. That's where Kern blew it. If he had made Cole Cole Turner the lawyer who had just recently been turned into Belthazor, so the lawyer was the real one, it would've been totally different, but Cole is Belthazor much more than he is Cole and as a Charmed One, she couldn't love him and the way he kept using his powers. Her potion didn't get rid of Belthazor's evil, only his powers, the reason he gave in to the Source - he loved being strong and evil more than weak and good. I agree, Phoebe tried to forget that Cole was also Belthazor, as many women try to forget that they are loving the wrong man When Cole lost his powers, he wasn't able to come to terms with it, he didn't want being a common man, he wanted to be powerful, rich and revered with his beautiful objectified wife I'ld say yes, Phoebe loved deeply Cole, having confidence in his love and in his will to not be Belthazor again She was dramatically naive |
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Post by Esmeralda on Nov 25, 2016 20:18:23 GMT -5
But like so many first loves, that wasn't true love. She was in love with the idea of being in love with him because he loved her - in other words, infatuated - she didn't love him. She couldn't love a half-demon, only the lawyer he pretended to be, the one who wasn't the real Cole after being a mercenary demon for 100 years. A leopard doesn't change his spots that quickly or that easily and especially not for love. He can try, he can pretend, but he can't - not that quickly. That's where Kern blew it. If he had made Cole Cole Turner the lawyer who had just recently been turned into Belthazor, so the lawyer was the real one, it would've been totally different, but Cole is Belthazor much more than he is Cole and as a Charmed One, she couldn't love him and the way he kept using his powers. Her potion didn't get rid of Belthazor's evil, only his powers, the reason he gave in to the Source - he loved being strong and evil more than weak and good. I agree, Phoebe tried to forget that Cole was also Belthazor, as many women try to forget that they are loving the wrong man When Cole lost his powers, he wasn't able to come to terms with it, he didn't want being a common man, he wanted to be powerful, rich and revered with his beautiful objectified wife I'ld say yes, Phoebe loved deeply Cole, having confidence in his love and in his will to not be Belthazor again She was dramatically naive I agree with everything except Phoebe deeply loving Cole - she loved the Cole she wanted him to be - again, infatuation - not the Cole he truly was. When she finally accepted that, that's when she turned her back on him and he became a crazed stalker. In his own way, he was as dramatically naive as she was - neither obviously had a lot of experience in loving someone who you thought was something else. Hence the tragedy of their relationship and why Cole should've remained vanquished in Season Four - a much better ending for their infatuation story. I just wish Leo had opened his eyes to Piper and the fact that she was treating him the same way Phoebe treated Cole for the same reason - wanting him to be her dream guy whose world revolved all around her - and left her long before they had Wyatt and Chris. Both Phoebe and Piper should've matured a lot more before either fell in infatuation. |
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Post by Granny Charmed on Nov 26, 2016 8:08:16 GMT -5
Now this wasn't confirmed with any evidence dears. But I was under the impression that Cole and Leo were both Phoebe and Piper's first true serious relationships on the show. Given with how they turned our beloved Grams into a man hater in the later seasons - I can't help but wonder if this played a part in it, or maybe this girl is wrong on this.
Es makes a good point, about Cole. If he truly was just a lawyer would only recently turned into Belthazor - then it would be different.
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Post by sol on Nov 28, 2016 2:17:45 GMT -5
Are you sure? Or have you forgotten?
A first love is like a twister, you even get lost all capacity for reasoning and discernment and Phoebe was so stupid to marry Cole even if she wasn't hunger for marriage
Piper was ready, she belongs to that kind of women that when they fall in love, they are not overwhelmed by passion, not even with their first love
I agree, Phoebe had only collected flirt girlish, Piper was too taken by her duties - her sick grandmother, money for their home and medicine - to find the lightness of spirit it takes to be willing to fall in love
I totally agree, in this case Cole'ld be like Leo, a human raised as a normal boy
Cole have gained extensive experience in the human world only as a powerful demon who can have prestige and wealth, he never could, like Leo, be happy with being only a support of the Charmed Ones
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Post by Esmeralda on Nov 28, 2016 8:26:25 GMT -5
I'd agree with you regarding Piper if she didn't treat Leo - wanting him to be human - the same way Phoebe treated Cole - wanting him to be human. Neither truly loved the real person but only the person they wanted them to be - infatuation, which is not true love.
It's part of why I think "Forever Crap, I mean Forever Piper, I mean Forever Charmed" is just Piper's delusion as she dies after the explosion in "Kill Billie, Vol. 2" - I can't see Leo happy without an identity in the human world, so I can't see him agreeing to remain Piper's little errand boy and staying with her that long.
If you had to have that ending, I would've preferred going straight to Phoebe reading the Book to her daughter, Ladybug, in the attic, and then Piper peeking in, telling Phoebe to come down and help with dinner - after all, she lives there, too. They leave Ladybug with the Book and then just Piper and Phoebe going down the steps, with the pictures, but no sign of Leo, or Coop or Paige's kids or Phoebe's other two daughters or Piper's daughter or grandkids - just Grams, Patty, Victor, (hopefully) Prue, Piper, Phoebe, Paige, Wyatt, Chris (since they have to be) and Ladybug.
Then as they reach the bottom of the step, Paige and Henry walk in, Paige closing the door as she does - the end. That would've done it just fine for me - if we had to have it that way.
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Post by sol on Nov 29, 2016 2:20:28 GMT -5
I like your final
But
Love Hurts
Leo wished to be human again but he didn't, there were the Elders that pushed him to choose to become human again
And
The Demon Who Came In From the Cold
Phoebe didn't ask, it was Cole that wished to give up his powers
Leo and Cole wished to change their status and it happened almost accidentally
Leo was ready, Cole not, Piper and Phoebe only faced these new reality
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Post by Esmeralda on Nov 29, 2016 8:17:05 GMT -5
In both situations they were in the midst of that first love that you were talking about. Life proved that neither of them truly wanted what they say.
Now had the show ended when it should've - after "All Hell Breaks Loose" - I'd agree with you totally. In the true Charmedverse, Piper showed that maybe given the right conditions, she could love Leo the angel as much as Leo the man and Phoebe showed that given the right circumstances she could love Cole the demon (because she believed that he could control that side without her help - and that he wanted to because he wanted to, not because she wanted him to) as much as the lawyer. They were both showing signs of maturing in S3 and had that continued, they could've.
But in the alternate-universe spin-off of "The Perils of Poor, Poor Pitiful Piper" aka "PhoeME and Her Fantasy Men" aka "Two Witches Plus One Living Whitelighter Equals The Power of Three?", those selfish, self-centered b!tches who never grew up and never thought of their man but only of themselves, never could and never would. Their actions prove they *never* would've/could've made the choices they make in these conversations - and in that case, rather than being like Season Two when after Leo lost his wings, she got him a job at P3 so he could still be a man, she turned him into the one thing she truly wanted in a man - an errand boy to do her wishes - the way Phoebe got what she wanted from a man - her daughter.
Hence the reason I think they would be happiest living together with just Piper's sons and Phoebe's daughter and no men, while Paige, who was lucky enough to not be raised by S4-S8 Grams, had Henry.
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Post by ljones on Dec 7, 2016 23:14:27 GMT -5
I can't believe I'm reading this. Phoebe is supposed to love Cole based on what he was? This is true love?
Being human doesn't mean squat. All one has to do is explore world history. Doing so will prove just how monstrous human beings can be. Even the show has proven this . . . when it has the balls to do so.
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Post by sol on Dec 10, 2016 7:26:49 GMT -5
I thought it was clear I was talking about Cole, not about his love story with Phoebe
And Cole loved power and wealth, he had a dominant personality, he'ld never settle for a normal life, as a human, simple lawyer
If he had not loved the power, he'ld discuss with the sisters of the Seer's offer but he lured the idea of a powerful son, of the creation of an invincible dynasty
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