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Post by CharmedFaith on Mar 20, 2010 22:09:34 GMT -5
This is a continuation of the debate started here: thecharmedcafe.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=charmedebate&thread=9012&page=4Basically, can whitelighters reproduce? And can they pass on (some of) their powers to a child? Just some random quotes from the debate The reason Paige, Wyatt and Chris could orb was because their fathers were all white lighters and their mothers were witches - and plus there is no other record in the show of a white lighter having a kid, so I think it is completely valid that they got the power to orb. It was really up to the writers, and it never said otherwise in the show. Yes, but those whitelighter powers were EARNED by Leo and Sam, not inherited. Those powers would not be in the father's sperm and should not have been able to be passed on. Paige, Chris and Wyatt should not have gotten them until after they died and if they had earned them. I HATE the idea of witchlighters - it makes no sense and made death mean nothing even more than corporeal ghosts or Charmed Ones dying and coming back to life over and over and over and over and over.... Did anyone *really* think that Phoebe and Paige (IF Paige actually died) would stay dead after Kill Billie, Vol 2? Not even Piper did. That took away so much of the drama of the show, part of why I loved "Charmed" and hated "The Perils of Poor, Poor, Pitiful Piper". Yup. Much as I love "Morality Bites", Connie Burge truly blew it by showing Little Melinda. The only way Leo and Piper (or Patty and Sam) could have a kid was through adoption. Little Melinda, Paige, Wyatt and Chris should've never existed. If only.... Maybe if Whitelighter's weren't dead but a different magical species all together. It could explain passing on whitelighter powers. Then again it would be kind of creepy in a way. And I am just going to choose thinking of this when I think of whitelighters from now on: Yes they are dead, but when the Elders make them whitelighters, it heals all of their body parts and organs thus allowing them to produce sperm to make children. Didnt Leos heart still beat? |
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Esmeralda
Charmed
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Post by Esmeralda on Mar 21, 2010 9:53:23 GMT -5
Since so far I'm the only one taking the "without magic, there is no logical reason for there to be such a thing as a witchlighter" side of this debate, I've decided to copy over my last response and the replies to it so the debate can continue here. Keep in mind - if a logical reason can be found, I'm always the first to be able to admit that I'm wrong. But you have to convince me first... A lion could breed with a tiger. They could be similar but different. A lion is alive. So is a tiger. A whitelighter is not alive - s/he's dead, or more specifically undead. So is his sperm or her eggs. It's why I hate the idea of witchlighters. Like Piper dying and come back to life 50 million times or Patty and Penny becoming corporeal for no special reasons, it totally takes away the idea of death. Unless your name is Prue, of course. I couldn't. If being granted powers means that you could pass them down, then every Warren would have the same three powers that Melinda Warren had. They didn't. They were each a witch, given a power at birth - sometimes one that Melinda didn't even have like the ice and fire that the cousins from the 20's got. None of the so-called witchlighters are whitelighters - they are all witches. Being a whitelighter is only something that you become after you die. The so-called witchlighters are all alive, so they can not be whitelighters, which means they can't have whitelighter powers or whitelighter-affected powers. Without the crutch of magic, there is still no logical reason for there to be such a thing as a witchlighter. But yet they could be "killed" by a Darklighters poison. I wish the writer's were more clear on if a whitelighter was dead or alive. Numerous times Leo stated that he was dead, but I think he was refering to his previous life as a human. Becoming mortal also backs up my statement of him being alive, and that he has sperm. I think becoming a whitelighter isn't just gaining powers, I think they are a new species altogether. Paige was shown numerous times to be affected by a Darklighter's poison showing that she also gained the vunerabilites of a whitelighter aswell as whitelighter powers. However I must agree with you on the fact that Paige and Wyatt being able to use all these whitelighter powers takes the meaning out of being a whitelighter. I liked that fact that Chris was limited to Orbing and TK Orbing. Ive always agreed that a witchlighter shouldnt be able to gain all whitelighter abilities and that was a major show mistake with Paige and Wyatt. But other than that, they never full out stated what whtielighters really were. And if demons can have babies with mortals than I see no problem with whitelighters. Leo wasnt dead when his wings were clipped, he just didnt have any abilities. But I dont remember any references of Leos heart not beating, him having no body warmth, no pulse. But everything points to them being another magical specisis imo. And even Darklighters can reproduce sexually. That much we have confirmed. So it sounds like they brought him back from the dead imo. Yes, I forgot to mention that demons can breed with humans, or else we wouldn't have Cole. Was their any other Half breeds besides Whitelighters and demons on the show? I dont think so. Those were the major players of the show. And well demons covered a wide aray of demon species. We know darklighters are able to reproduce and those are basically the same as whitelighters (and we saw Paige as a darklighter in S6 finale) And thinking back now, Leo must have had a heartbeat and body warmth since Piper was dating him for a whille before she found out he was a whitelighter. Not to mention slept with him. When you think about it, she would know right away whether or not he has "man juice". Boy have we gotten off topic. For Es's list, I believe the Tall Man should fit somewhere up there. He was trapped by The Source because he couldn't defeat him, and he basically abosrbed everything including magic. It took Phoebe's brat's powers to beat him, and if I recall he was more powerful than the Po3. LOL, which indeed we had, which is why I'm glad CharmedFaith started a new thread (Thanks!) Because believe it or not, I think I'm finally starting to see the light. I've always thought of whitelighters as angels. They're not. They're mortals brought back to life and given different powers. I still don't think they can pass down those powers, since I still think that if powers were passed down, all of the Warrens would have the same powers, which they don't, but, well, you guys are half-way there! And I'm happy now. If you guys only knew how much it hurt me to realize that Charmed was first screwed up with this whole witchlighter crap during my very favorite episode, "Morality Bites" - but seeing what can happen when a witch has a kid with a whitelighter - because the kids are part whitelighter and part Charmed they become even more powerful than their mothers and suddenly more important to the show than their mothers, when it's suddenly more important to guard a kid than save innocents, so how badly it screwed up the show and then thinking about it and realizing how very illogical someone who is dead having a kid with someone who is alive is... Now I understand. If Leo was brought back to life and given different powers, then he could indeed have had Melinda with Piper. And as I've always believed, Melinda is a witch (she only talked about not using her magic) with only witch-powers. Charmed was screwed up when Kern decided to make it "fresh" by having Paige's powers be affected by the fact that her father was a whitelighter. Had she only had Prue's power to move things with her mind (or better, a totally different WITCH power all her own, since as I've pointed out, these powers *weren't* passed down, only being a witch was), they never would've come up with witches having whitelighter powers, as should've happened. That should've been saved for those who had earned if after they had died. I'm so happy that indeed it was KERN who screwed up by inventing the whole witchlighter crap and not Connie! |
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Post by SEERofCHAOS on Mar 21, 2010 14:33:17 GMT -5
You say if Whitelighters could pass down powers than the Warrens would have all the powers, but Chris didn't seem to have all the powers of a whitelighter. Paige also didn't get all the powers as a whitelighter until the Elders started granting them to her, which they shouldn't have because she really didn't do anything.
It seems to be only Wyatt who could use all the capabilities of a Whitelighter, but then you know, he is the Twice Blessed Child.
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Esmeralda
Charmed
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Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
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Post by Esmeralda on Mar 21, 2010 15:05:24 GMT -5
*roll eyes* That he was, one of many reasons why the show REALLY jumped the shark when he was invented.
Had he and Chris never been invented, I wonder if this whole idea of witchlighters would bother me as much as it does - when Paige first showed up as one, I found it fascinating... But then she didn't upstage the other two the way Wyatt and Chris upstaged their mother and her sisters. She didn't completely change their destiny from protecting the innocents to protecting the Twice Blessed Brat.
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Post by SEERofCHAOS on Mar 21, 2010 15:12:12 GMT -5
If the writers thought of whole storylines instead of "what can we include in this episode that will make it work" than we wouldn't have problems like these.  I mean look at Josh Whedon and Buffy, he foreshadowed storylines seasons ahead. Charmed couldn't foreshadow what is going to happen after the commercial break.  |
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Post by StoryGirl83 on Mar 21, 2010 16:39:17 GMT -5
Well, that was all very interesting and gives me something to think about that I hadn't before. The reason I am responding is because I felt the need to say that Chaos' comment about Charmed not being able to predict what was happening after the break made me burst out laughing. Thanks for the laugh, even if it was at the sake of Charmed.
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Post by CharmedFaith on Mar 21, 2010 17:11:53 GMT -5
Ya Chris and Paige (initially) didnt get the full whitelighter package. At first Paige could only heal with Leos assistance. But then the show went on to making all of them full fleged whitelighters. So its no different than the Warren line recieving one of Melindas abilities (when you look at S1-4)
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ljones
Whitelighter
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Post by ljones on Mar 21, 2010 20:54:14 GMT -5
I don't recall Chris "TK Orbing" (or teleporting other objects). I do recall him using telekinesis, like Prue.
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Post by SEERofCHAOS on Mar 21, 2010 21:03:27 GMT -5
I don't recall Chris "TK Orbing" (or teleporting other objects). I do recall him using telekinesis, like Prue. I think you're right. There was one instance when evil Chris TK orbed something with black orbs, but I don't recall good Chris doing so. |
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Esmeralda
Charmed
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Post by Esmeralda on Mar 21, 2010 21:13:48 GMT -5
So Evil Chris was more powerful than So-Called-Good Chris (a contradiction in terms as far as I'm concerned). This show gets stranger as it goes along.
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Post by SEERofCHAOS on Mar 21, 2010 21:17:49 GMT -5
So Evil Chris was more powerful than So-Called-Good Chris (a contradiction in terms as far as I'm concerned). This show gets stranger as it goes along. I am pretty sure Chris could do it too, I think he just perferred regular TK. I would prefer it to. EDIT:Oh yes, remember when Baby Chris was playing Candyland and he switched the cards using TK orbing in Season 8? |
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Post by erikamarie on Mar 22, 2010 7:05:58 GMT -5
the whitelighters are human recombined with new powers so the normal laws of genetics should work for them also for this reason I don' think that Paige kids could orb only their grandfather was whitelighter. I think paige and Chris inherited one of the powers of the Warren family like the other witches ancestors before them and the special nature of their fathers has changed-in Paige casee-enriched -in Chris case after all he is the son of a Charmed One-the power to move objects. Neither the one nor the other have more powers, Wyatt powers are linked in particular to his birthday more than his parents
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Esmeralda
Charmed
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Post by Esmeralda on Mar 22, 2010 7:35:20 GMT -5
So Evil Chris was more powerful than So-Called-Good Chris (a contradiction in terms as far as I'm concerned). This show gets stranger as it goes along. I am pretty sure Chris could do it too, I think he just perferred regular TK. I would prefer it to. EDIT:Oh yes, remember when Baby Chris was playing Candyland and he switched the cards using TK orbing in Season 8? Chris didn't switch the cards. Wyatt did. Chris was too young to know what Candyland was. He could sense and save his brother, but cheat? How can you cheat at something that you don't know what it is? The camera just showed him watching. Had he waved his hand or something, I'd agree with you, but he didn't. It was Wyatt. |
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Post by erikamarie on Mar 22, 2010 10:49:14 GMT -5
from www.twiztv.com/scripts/charmed/season8/charmed-821.pdfKILL BILL VOL.II Victor Bennet: Unless you draw a double red,you don't stand a chance, my man. Go ahead. Pick that card Wyatt picks a single blu, the card orbs out another card orbs in, the double red Victor Bennet: Hey, that's cheating Wyatt: It wasn't me. It's Chris Victor Bennet: No way. He doesn't have any powers yet Wyatt: yes, he does Chris was too little to understand the game but he is able to understand what his grandfather is saying |
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ljones
Whitelighter
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Post by ljones on Mar 22, 2010 15:36:44 GMT -5
I think that Paige's ability could have simply been described as teleportation and that the writers were pulling crap out of their collective asses when they named it "telekinetic orbing" . I don't recall Chris teleporting other objects. Which is why I find the argument that he had Paige's ability, but simply decided to use telekinesis. I've never seen Leo teleport other objects. Just himself and anyone clinging to him (namely Piper). |
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Post by SEERofCHAOS on Mar 22, 2010 16:33:44 GMT -5
But they never called it anything in the show. TK orbing is a fan coined term.
And I refuse to call it teleportation. Paige sometimes moved objects like Prue, just covered in orbs.
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Post by ghostrider on Mar 22, 2010 23:13:39 GMT -5
I personally am not comfortable with witch-lighters but I have to wonder what the problem would be about a witch getting involved with a white-lighter in the first place. Patty produced Paige and had to give her up and Piper and Leo had to marry on the sly....so we know this is taboo. My guess is the reason is partly do to what they can bring-forth from their union. So the ability to create a child with a white-lighter, at least from the writers stand point, was never in question.
This made me wonder for the first time about Paige. She was indeed born a witch....there is no question that she had white-lighter capabilities....but she knew nothing about this until Prue died. It seems that had Prue lived maybe she would have remained in the dark for the most part......except, she orbed herself from her adopted parents car, thus saving her life. She didn't realize what she had done but that doesn't change the fact that she did it. She had no control or understanding of this but it shows just who she really is. This is interesting as it is an example of at least some of the wisdom the elders had. Mating with a white-lighter has some strange strings attached to it. Prue alive or dead....Paige was still walking around with some unusual talents.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Mar 23, 2010 12:52:50 GMT -5
But they never called it anything in the show. TK orbing is a fan coined term. And I refuse to call it teleportation. Paige sometimes moved objects like Prue, just covered in orbs. This is why I hate those fancy terms that were very seldom used on the show. Using all of the fancy terms simply confuses things. Modes of transportation like orbing, shimmering and flaming were used, but that was about it. Paige and Prue moved things with their minds. Piper froze stuff and exploded stuff. Phoebe got flashes of the future or the past, felt other people's feelings or lifted into the air. *shrug* Why use terms that weren't used on the show? LOL and there we go off-topic again!  |
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Post by CharmedFaith on Mar 23, 2010 12:59:01 GMT -5
Because thats how fans work. Just like in Buffy, the fans coined Buffy and friends The Scooby Gang before it was ever brought up in the show (i dont remember if it ever was). I dont think its a bad thing that fans coined Paiges power as telekinetic orbing since it perfectly describes her power. Sure she moves things with her mind but it involves orbs. If it looks different it is going to have a different name or else you could end up with telekinetic moleculaer combustion.
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Post by SEERofCHAOS on Mar 23, 2010 15:07:41 GMT -5
It was, but it rarely comes up.
I am just going to stick to calling it tK Orbing because it is easier for me than saying "moving things with orbs".
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