Prue's Death - Could it have been avoided

[foxfire]

You know what's weird? Piper placed more blame on herself (using her "Leo healed me because I'm his wife" theory that was clearly wrong) than Phoebe did. I mean, Piper fell apart but Phoebe was so composed.

Anyway, I almost think it was slightly out of Prue's character to just chase after a demon like that. She may be impulsive sometimes but she is pretty cautious.

Although, I must say. It was total bull creating the Cleaners AFTERWARDS and then saying they'd been around for a long time. (Sorry that was random)

[ljones]

vandergraafk said:

Maybe we should call this thread the "Blame Game". What I find troubling is that some of us are having trouble distinguishing between opportunity and exposure. Let me explain.

What ljones cites as the consequences of Prue's decision to follow Shax out into the public clearly resulted in exposure of the worst sort. The actions of the Charmed Ones were broadcast not once, but twice on local and national TV. Though the sisters might have gotten away with the first one - after all, how were the media to explain what had happened - the second time on tape is much too coincidental to be glossed over. The media would have hung on like a pit bull gnawing away at some unfortunate chap's shin.

Exposure, though, is certainly not something new to the sisters. Indeed, there have been numerous instances of exposure over the years. One that I would like to cite and comment on is the dreadful exposure that surely emerged from Phoebe's attempt to avenge her bad karma on Jason, her now jaded former lover. The trashing of the press conference/speech given by Jason in front of many dignitaries, many presumably with media connections, by Phoebe and the resulting exposure of magic was potentially lethal to the Charmed Ones. However, the series conveniently glosses over this exposure and allows Phoebe cum Mata Hari to get away with renegade exposure.

Yet, exposure is only one side of the coin. Opportunity is the other. Exposure in All Hell Breaks Loose presented the Source with an opportunity to gain advantage. The Swarm King in Used Karma apparently was too stupid to see the possibilities or too obsessed with exacting revenge for his vanquished drones that he neglected to take advantage of the wonderful opportunity presented by Phoebe cum Mata Hari's foolhardiness and Piper's insistence that this exposure mess could be dealt with after "we deal with Phoebe and the Swarm King".

Opportunity can be small or large. In the case of All Hell Breaks Loose, Phoebe's obsession with "saving" Cole had the consequence of splitting up the Charmed Ones at a crucial time and isolating Leo from the remaining two sisters. It also afforded the Source the opportunity to exact the maximum amount from the Charmed Ones as they desperately sought to reverse time.

Blame whomever you will, but please try to appreciate the story in its entirety and complexity. If you wish to find fault, blame the writers for concocting the character of GI Alice, expert sniper who is able to elude the SFPD by a single bounce upon her beat up VW bus.

So, are you saying that we should blame Prue's death on the writers, instead of Prue or Phoebe? Or that there is no one to blame?


If you're going to blame Phoebe for going after Cole, you might as well place some of the blame on Prue for setting everything in motion with her decision to seek out Shax outside the manor, when they could have stayed home and continued to guard Dr. Griffith.

The sisters were already in deep trouble when they were exposed for the first time. And even with Phoebe in the Source's Realm and Prue uncertain on whether they had vanquished Shax or not, they decide to let release Dr. Griffith from the manor . . . and then go to the hospital to make sure that Shax was not after him?

Anyway, I almost think it was slightly out of Prue's character to just chase after a demon like that. She may be impulsive sometimes but she is pretty cautious.

But she had sometimes threw caution in the wind . . . especially when her pride got in the way.

[whitelightertony]

Although, I must say. It was total bull creating the Cleaners AFTERWARDS and then saying they'd been around for a long time. (Sorry that was random)

Normally, I'd agree with you, except when you take into account some of the comments made by the Cleaners themselves.

In "Crimes and Witch Demeanors," the Cleaners are very insistent to the Charmed Ones that the witches ultimately wouldn't have been able to cover up magical exposure and protect Darryl? How could they have known this? It seems to imply that the Cleaners possess some level of precognition, since they sound so certain that Phoebe and Paige couldn't have cleaned up the exposure by themselves.

If this is true, and if the Cleaners can indeed see into the future (regarding scenarios of exposure), then perhaps they foresaw that Tempus would reverse time, erasing the mass exposure created by Shax and the Charmed Ones? If the Cleaners foresaw that space-time regression followed by Prue's death and then Shax's vanquish in the privacy of the Halliwells' attic, the Cleaners might have seen no need to "clean up" after Shax and the Halliwells during the original timeline in "All Hell Breaks Loose."

I do want to touch upon something else related to "All Hell Breaks Loose," however. Does anyone else find it a bit odd that Shax would try to attack the Halliwells in broad daylight? (once on the street, when Prue and Piper first came after him; then again outside of the hospital, when he targeted Dr. Griffiths)

After all, The Source himself didn't want magic to be exposed anymore than the Elders did. Otherwise, why would he have agreed to let Tempus reverse time? So, if The Source was opposed to magical exposure, why would Shax (presumably following The Source's orders) be so reckless as to expose himself in front of the mortal world not once but TWICE?

Maybe Shax was acting out of his own volition when he attacked the Halliwells and Dr. Griffiths in public; but, since it led to exposure, wouldn't Shax's actions have elicited some sort of punishment or consequence from The Source directly?

[ljones]

I do want to touch upon something else related to "All Hell Breaks Loose," however. Does anyone else find it a bit odd that Shax would try to attack the Halliwells in broad daylight? (once on the street, when Prue and Piper first came after him; then again outside of the hospital, when he targeted Dr. Griffiths)

After all, The Source himself didn't want magic to be exposed anymore than the Elders did. Otherwise, why would he have agreed to let Tempus reverse time? So, if The Source was opposed to magical exposure, why would Shax (presumably following The Source's orders) be so reckless as to expose himself in front of the mortal world not once but TWICE?

Maybe Shax was acting out of his own volition when he attacked the Halliwells and Dr. Griffiths in public; but, since it led to exposure, wouldn't Shax's actions have elicited some sort of punishment or consequence from The Source directly?

This is a very good point.

[foxfire]

Many demons from seasons 5 and on attack in broad daylight (which kind of made the show seem WAY too light).

I'm guessing that Shax is pretty much a bloodthirsty idiot who really doesn't know when demons are SUPPOSED to attack but merely he knows that he wants them dead. Perhaps?

[spiritsas]

I think, as far as the Cleaners are concerned, that was a story idea which simply didn't exist in the first three seasons. Just adds to any long running show's inconsistencies, which are bound to happen.

As for the attack in broad daylight, one can double talk that Shax, like the sisters, was prone to mistakes, that he was pissed about being blown up and saw an opportunity to strike again. Of course, the actors don't write the show, the writers do, with direction from the producers. This was just the way the writers came up with the exposure scenario, setting up the need for time reversal and winding up with a different outcome than the first time Shax attacked in the house.

[vandergraafk]

Some day I'd like to write a book straightening out Charmedverse... to create it whole cloth, as it were.

Never mind! No, you missed my point. My point is: I AM NOT TRYING TO BLAME ANYONE!!!!!

Spiritkas is, of course, correct when he notes the evolutionary nature of Charmed sometimes led to the creation of ad hoc entities. Perhaps the Cleaners and the Tribunal are examples of such adhocrocratic entities (another new word for the day). Maybe we should about Steven J. Gould's notion of punctured equilibrium when it comes to discussing the role of evolution in Charmedverse!

[whitelightertony]

Many demons from seasons 5 and on attack in broad daylight (which kind of made the show seem WAY too light).

But that was after The Source had been vanquished. There was really no one to keep all those demons in check.

I'm guessing that Shax is pretty much a bloodthirsty idiot who really doesn't know when demons are SUPPOSED to attack but merely he knows that he wants them dead. Perhaps?

I could certainly buy that, in terms of explaining Shax's personality and actions. But I'd imagine he was constantly maintaining contact with The Source, and after the first exposure it seems The Source would have at least reprimanded him. Unless maybe The Source decided to accept the deal from Cole and Phoebe before he got around to actually punishing Shax?

[whitelightertony]

I think, as far as the Cleaners are concerned, that was a story idea which simply didn't exist in the first three seasons. Just adds to any long running show's inconsistencies, which are bound to happen.

I agree that the writers didn't come up with the idea for The Cleaners until Season 6.

I'm just trying to explain why, in the context of the Charmedverse, The Cleaners wouldn't have intervened in "All Hell Breaks Loose."

[ljones]

rebeccamalfoy said:

I think it could have been avoided if Phoebe had not gone to save Cole from the Underworld. She would have been there to call for Leo to heal.

Has it ever occurred to you that the whole mess could have been avoided if Prue had not dragged Piper out of the house to track down Shax and not get caught on camera using magic?

Or if Prue had decided to be patient and prepare for Shax to make another attempt to kill the doctor inside the manor?

Given Shannen's own history of bad decisions, there's no reason to suppose she was any more correct in her assessment of Charmed's appeal than any other would-be TV critic.

Actually, I believe that Shannon's assessment of the show was nearly accurate. In fact, I believe it became even more accurate during the show's last four seasons.

Eventually, Constance Burge left Charmed for whatever reason. Some of that surely had to do with the direction the show was taking, a turn toward the dark side (the Source, Cole, etc.), which I personally liked, but one that I am certain did not please Ms. Burge! After all, she wanted to write a series about three sisters who happened to be witches, not a series about three witches who vanquish more and more powerful demons as an obsession.

My problem with Constance Burge is that she wanted to maintain the show's style and substance as it was established in Season 1. I believe that this attitude nearly stagnated the show in Season 2.

However, starting with the handling of the Source storyline in late Season 4 and ending with the show's finale, I feel that Brad Kern had damaged CHARMED a lot more than Burge had done in Season 2.

[spiritsas]

wtony - I see your point. I was, as is my nature, to be a bit logical and linear about how I look at these things. But you are correct, given you assumption.

Malfoy - What SD assessment are you referring to?

As far as Constance Burge is concerned, we all owe her a great deal for creating the show. She may have "borrowed" some of the concept from the movie Practical Magic, but she certainly made it all her own and then gave it the audience. It's well known she and Brad Kern disagreed over the nature and direction of the show, but that stuff happens. There may also have been other forces (network and sponsor pressures) that we are not privy to, which may have influenced the show's direction. Plus any show, no matter how good, has to change and grow or it becomes stale. It can only be edgy, in a particular way, for so long. One may disagree with the direction Brad took the show, but if the cast had that many problems, they would have bailed long before.

Let's face it, Charmed, like any show had its shares of ups and downs, and various problems, plus a network which underpromoted the show terribly, and then abandoned it. It's over, and they ended it well (though not all agree with that either).

[foxfire]

It's very strange to me the direction they went with Charmed given the WB's history of supernatural shows. You think they'd give them a bigger budget to compete with Buffy after it moved to UPN. Then again, they probably wanted an alternative to Buffy so as Buffy got darker they wanted Charmed to be lighter.

I also think vanquishing the Source was a good and bad thing. They probably should have made an even bigger bad for the following seasons (à la Buffy or Sailor Moon).

[vandergraafk]

Well, foxfire, I'm afraid that I'd have to disagree. If the Source were not really the Source of All Evil, then either it was misnamed or the audience was about to be cheated in a major way. Charmed chose a middle path that did not necessarily promise success. Killing the Source did carry with it an immense risk. As in any show that hinges on a major pivot point - will Diane and Sam become lovers (Cheers); will Superman's secret be outed (Lois and Clark) - a TV program risks losing its raison d'etre. It certainly killed Lois and Clark. Getting rid of Diane saved Cheers. Having the Source infect Cole saved Charmed.

Still, Charmed was only temporarily saved. Cole eventually was vanquished. The Source blew to bits when the Seer took out the Council (Womb Raider). Shifting focus to Wyatt - and the threats against this magical baby - and by introducing Chris bought some time. The Avatars provided a useful distraction and allowed another big baddie, imprisoned in the dungeon we had been introduced to in Womb Raider, gave us a new big baddie: Zankou, who, if budget considerations and the lack of certainty about renewal, not led to his demonic demise would have given Charmed a new demonic lease on life.

Did I say temporary? Yes, the show actually lived on for another four years after the vanquish of the Source! Not bad.

As I gather from Jennifer Oeillette's excellent book "The Physics of the Buffyverse", the big baddie in the realm of Buffy could never be defeated. It just kept sending out more and more threats in order to destroy the slayers. Where Buffy sort of ran into trouble was that ultimately they killed Buffy and had to bring her back in a strange sort of way.

By the way, one can see the danger that Charmed was flirting with when killing the Source after building him up as the Source of All Evil in the Ultimate Battle scenario. With no Source left and Zankou apparently the last baddie in the dungeon, the writers could only resurrect the TRIAD and claim that Cole really hadn't vanquished these guys. I know I groaned when I heard the TRIAD invoked again. I really groaned when I learned in Kill Billie, Volume 2 that the TRIAD were evil incarnate, meaning that the TRIAD really couldn't be vanquished, whereas the Source (of All Evil) could be? It didn't make sense and still doesn't make sense. But, then, not much about the Ultimate Battle makes sense anyhow.

And, why did the Source have to be vanquished? Well, he obviously felt threatened by the Power of Three, and even a reconstituted Power of Three meant that the Charmed Ones would never ever be safe from the Source. Besides, the sisters, epecially Piper, had to slay the Source in order to exact vengeance for the death of Prue.

[foxfire]

Or better yet, why not (after Cole) just have a new Source? Why couldn't they? I mean it may have been slightly cheesey if it had been the same kind of guy. But let's face it, Charmed never had any female villains who seriously posed a threat to the Charmed Ones. So why not have a female Source?

Then again, the Source wasn't exactly the Source of ALL evil despite being given that title. If that were true, he could have made his own demons and he wouldn't have even imprisonned Zankou. Why couldn't they invent a villain who was essentially the essence of evil?

[vandergraafk]

Well, they did! The TRIAD, as evil incarnate, the embodiment of evil, pretty much makes it the Source of all things evil. I don't like it, especially as we know the coronated Source was more powerful than the TRIAD. Certainly, the coronated Source was ruthless. He imprisoned, exiled or slaughtered rivals. Maybe that's why he was vanquishable. Such great power carried with it the risk of a vanquish. The TRIAD accepted lesser powers with the condition that it could never be vanquished, though it might lose the ability to become corporeal for a time.

Yes, there was a female Source - very briefly. The Seer incanted the oath before the Council and became the Source at the Council's ceremony until she imploded at the hands of the great evil ensconced in her womb and vanquished each member of the Council. As the Grimoire was later buried inside a mountain in the West Andes, how could a new Source ever hope to be coronated again?

I'm for equal rights and all of that. But, think about it. Do we really want a woman as the source of all things evil? Don't a lot of men complain already that women are evil, especially ones they are married to? Why give them even more ammunition? (Boy, am I ever gonna get flamed for that comment!)

[foxfire]

Look at it this way, when Phoebe was the Queen of All Evil, was she not more badass than Cole? I mean, she could have gotten rid of him and ruled the underworld herself.

Look at Buffy, they had an infinite number of villains. But who was the most powerful and definitely the coolest? Glory! Then again, she was a goddess. Of course, all of Sailor Moon's big bads were usually female and it always made sense.

Charmed did have a number of kickass villains (like the Furies, the Siren and of course Katya). But they never had one who posed such a risk.

[vandergraafk]

Let me get this straight! You WANT a woman to become the Source of All Things Evil? Oh my!

[foxfire]

It would have made a bigger challenge for the Charmed Ones.

[ljones]

If the Source were not really the Source of All Evil, then either it was misnamed or the audience was about to be cheated in a major way.

Personally, I believe that it was misnamed. A demon as the source of all evil? That doesn't even make any sense to me.


As for having a female as the Source . . . why not? One of the best villains on the show was a female - namely the Seer, portrayed by Debbi Morgan.

Having the Source infect Cole saved Charmed.

I disagree. I think that the show lost a lot of fans when that happened. In fact, Brad Kern was flooded with a lot of questions asking when Julian McMahon would return to the show, following "Centennial Charmed".

[foxfire]

Cole had to leave the show at some point. He was never really a long lasting character, not like Leo. Plus, Julian McMahon needed to go on to other things. Although, they could have merely come back as a guest had they not killed him.

Personally, they should have just had him stripped of his powers and finally get over Phoebe. That way he could have left the show with grace.

This seems to be getting way off topic...