pubesy
Witch
"If I could dream at all, it would be about you. And I'm not ashamed of it." - Edward Cullen
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Post by pubesy on Feb 9, 2008 6:33:52 GMT -5
poor piper.  |
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Esmeralda
Charmed
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Post by Esmeralda on Feb 9, 2008 15:07:51 GMT -5
Why poor Piper?? She earned it by misusing her powers, just like Phoebe did in "Morality Bites." I would say "Poor world." With them running off like that and leaving their magical kids with Victor, I'm sure that's why Wyatt turned evil and took over the world. He's probably the one who put his mother and aunt on the pyre. (I think Leo and Paige both would've tried to stop Piper and Phoebe, so Piper and Phoebe ended up killing both of them, the reason why I said only Phoebe and Piper would end up on the pyre.)
Burn, Phoebe, burn!
Burn, Piper, burn!
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Post by whitelightertony on Feb 9, 2008 15:54:00 GMT -5
Esmerelda, in this "alternate future" that you envision, what do you believe were Piper's and Phoebe's motivations for engaging in selfish abuses of magic?
Do you think Victor denied them visitation of Wyatt and Chris (who would have been in his custody), and that hastened their downward spiral?
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Esmeralda
Charmed
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Post by Esmeralda on Feb 10, 2008 4:31:35 GMT -5
Esmerelda, in this "alternate future" that you envision, what do you believe were Piper's and Phoebe's motivations for engaging in selfish abuses of magic? Do you think Victor denied them visitation of Wyatt and Chris (who would have been in his custody), and that hastened their downward spiral? Nope. I believe that when they left, they never came back, never even *wanted* to see their sons/nephews--too busy with their own little private "normal lives" while continuing to use magic for personal gain until they were caught and even if Leo thought otherwise, he was too cowed by Piper to do anything as shown by the fact that he went along with it. Hence the reason for leaving the deeds to the Manor and P3 with Victor--they knew they were going to be using astral projections to defeat Zankou; which meant they knew they wouldn't die, so there's no other real reason for them leaving the deeds and why Piper had such a tearrful good-bye with her sons and Phoebe and Paige did with their nephews--they thought they'd never see their sons/nephews again and they didn't until their sons/nephews put them on the pyre. Burn, Piper, burn! Burn, Phoebe, burn! And, naturally, they burned when Chris was 14--THAT'S how his mother died! And remember, I don't believe this is the alternate world--I believe it's truly what happened and S8 is nothing more than a fantasy! Perhaps it was based on what really happened (how else could they dream up Billie & Christy--I'm sure they met them wherever they ended up, since it most certainly wouldn't be San Francisco), but totally twisted in order to fulfill Piper's dreams even as she burns. Nothing else makes sense. Now if Chris would just keep his ultra-skinny a$$ in his own future where it belongs and stop going back in time and teaching his mother and aunts that Wrong Things Done for The Right Reasons are Okay (otherwise known as Ends Justify the Means) and that it was okay for him to murder three Valkyrie and for them to steal Darryl's soul without permission so that they could rescue Piper (and so he wouldn't be around to stop the sister and Leo from figuring out that the Titans were going to murder the original Elders so they wouldn't be murdered and Leo wouldn't have to become an Elder/Avatar/mortal) maybe the rest of the world would be okay! |
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pubesy
Witch
"If I could dream at all, it would be about you. And I'm not ashamed of it." - Edward Cullen
Posts: 1,171
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Post by pubesy on Feb 10, 2008 6:30:40 GMT -5
i'm probably a minority here, but i quite enjoyed season 8.
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Post by whitelightertony on Feb 10, 2008 18:26:58 GMT -5
Raising Wyatt and Chris was supposed to be part of their so-called "normal lives."
How can you seriously assert that Piper and Leo would never want to see their sons again? If they didn't, then why would they return to Victor's apartment in "Still Charmed and Kicking"?
They didn't think of the astral projection scheme until the last minute. Up until then, the Charmed Ones truly thought they were going to die.
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Esmeralda
Charmed
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Post by Esmeralda on Feb 11, 2008 0:57:52 GMT -5
Nope. They decided on the astral projection as a tip of their cap to Prue before they visited Chris and Wyatt and gave Victor the deeds. They knew what they were going to do--leave everything behind, and that included the boys or everyone would think the boys had been kidnapped. I know because I remember my friend Aurora, a HUGE Chris-fan, was INFURIATED that they'd do that!
And the return to Victor's apartment is part of S8. That's part of the fantasy, remember???
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pubesy
Witch
"If I could dream at all, it would be about you. And I'm not ashamed of it." - Edward Cullen
Posts: 1,171
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Post by pubesy on Feb 12, 2008 2:50:55 GMT -5
how could a mother and father leave their sons behind?
piper and leo would have never abandoned their children. i never believed that. they honestly thought that the plan would never work and they were going to die. its the only thing that explains it
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Esmeralda
Charmed
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Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
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Post by Esmeralda on Feb 13, 2008 13:59:25 GMT -5
how could a mother and father leave their sons behind? piper and leo would have never abandoned their children. i never believed that. they honestly thought that the plan would never work and they were going to die. its the only thing that explains it You believe that--I don't. And the fun thing about belief--no need of proof--you simply know it in your heart--so this probably doesn't belong in the Debate area--it's not something that can be debated. No way they thought they were going to die if they knew they were going to use astral projection, so, yes, they always meant to leave the boys behind, because that would allow them to keep their covers, hence the reason S8 is just a fantasy. |
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Kit-the-cat
Witch
There are tons of people I'd like to freeze for all of eternity, but we won't go into that!-Holly
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Post by Kit-the-cat on Feb 13, 2008 14:19:16 GMT -5
Oh wow how the site has moved on since my absence. For a start Paige is the baby sister. No matter how nicely you put it, Paige is the youngest and there fore the BABY of the family. It's called Biology darling, and you cannot argue the fact that Paige was born last, making her the youngest and the baby of the family.
Secondly if Prue returned, who says Paige would have to leave. Paige could of easily of stayed a Halliwell, even if she was not a witch, she could of just lived out life as a Whitelighter.
Of course the sisters were right in moving on with there lives after the death of Prue, they couldnt of been expected to morn for the rest of there life.
Season 4 was actually the darker season. Up until then it had been rather light hearted etc. I for one thought S2 was hilarious, especially the Finale. Pubesy, you are correct in saying tht the show had a new dynamic, but not the right kind. Instead of getting greater, it got worse. Season 7 is proof of this. Connie Burge wrote most of the first 3 season ( i hope i am correct in thinking that), and as the creator of the show, she knew the direction she wanted Charmed to of gone in. With or without Shannen, Kern would still of ruined the show.
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Esmeralda
Charmed
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Post by Esmeralda on Feb 13, 2008 15:31:26 GMT -5
Oh wow how the site has moved on since my absence. For a start Paige is the baby sister. No matter how nicely you put it, Paige is the youngest and there fore the BABY of the family. It's called Biology darling, and you cannot argue the fact that Paige was born last, making her the youngest and the baby of the family. Oh, yes, I can argue that. No way Paige *IS* the baby! She's the YOUNGEST, yes, but baby, never! Maybe *Patty* might consider her her baby as her youngest, but the sisters, nope, never, no more than Piper was truly the oldest or Phoebe truly the middle--despite acting as the defacto leader of the Charmed Ones, Piper still acted like the middle--sure the whole world was against her--and just like Phoebe acted like the baby, otherwise known as PhoeME, because that's what they were; it's how they were raised. Just being born the youngest does *not* make you the baby of the family any more than Prue would've been the oldest had she been adopted by a family who already had a bunch of kids as a baby and joined the Halliwells later. In order to be the baby, you have to grow up with others who treat you as the baby--being treated as the baby is what gives you those particular characteristics. Paige grew up as an Only Child and was treated as an Only Child as she grew up, so she would/should have the characteristics of an Only Child, which are closer to those of the Oldest than the baby--she should've been more like Prue than a Phoebe-wannabe. If Paige had become part of the family when she was under 5, under 10, then, yes, the others would've probably treated her as the baby and she would've ended up gaining those characteristics, but not as a grown woman who is over 21! This is all very simple family dynamics. There have been *many* studies which have proven this all to be true, that it has more to do where you were in the birth order *as you were raised*. For Patty to try to get the sisters to treat her as the baby when they met her as a grownup woman was very unfair to both them and Paige herself, which is why I was very surprised when she said so. That was *so* unlike my favorite character! Paige is *NOT* a whitelighter. She has whitelighter powers due to her father, but she can not actually become one until she dies. For the Elders to try to treat her as one in S8 is part of the reason I think S8 never occurred but is just a fantasy. And due to Paige's mother, she still would always be a witch. If Prue had remained with the family, Paige would've simply not be Charmed, because she would not have gained the power to move things with her mind, nor would she be able to join with any of the other sisters to harness The Power of Three, the thing that made them Charmed. She only gained these after Prue no longer had them after her death. I agree, which is why blaming Piper's horrible change to a selfish self-centered b*tch on Prue's death makes no sense. Actually Connie hardly wrote any of the episodes--Kern actually wrote more of the first three seasons than she did. She was executive producer of the first two and an advisor of the third, although I don't think Kern listened to her a lot--the beginning of the kernization of the characters which ruined them started in S3. Kern is actuallly a very good writer when he had Connie to ride herd on him. After that, that's another story... |
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ljones
Whitelighter
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Post by ljones on Feb 13, 2008 20:32:49 GMT -5
Personally, I think that Kern did a better job in Season 3 . . . without Burge's influence, than he did in Season 2 . . . with her influence.
Of all of the seasons during the Prue Years, I have never been that impressed by Season 2. To me, it seemed to stagnate, following the series' introduction in Season 1.
I have to agree. I never any reason for Piper to automatically take charge when she became the oldest sister upon Prue's death. I never thought that she had the personality of a natural leader. Frankly, Paige seemed to be more of a natural leader than any of her sisters . . . aside from Prue.
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pubesy
Witch
"If I could dream at all, it would be about you. And I'm not ashamed of it." - Edward Cullen
Posts: 1,171
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Post by pubesy on Feb 13, 2008 22:05:40 GMT -5
what Esmeralda said! paige was the youngest, not the baby.
have you ever thought that maybe the power of 3 would cease to exist? paige couldn't be a whitelighter. she was still alive, and besides, leo was their whitelighter.
maybe a power of 4 would have been created.
that is, if prue somehow came back from the dead to stay. if she never died, then paige would never have been found.
but i have never thought prue would come back.
if she did it would only be as a ghost for a cameo appearance.
season 4 did have some dark parts. i will agree, especially at the end of the season. but i as alot more lighthearted. Paige photocopying the BOS, the unintended boob job, spells gone awry, phoebe becoming suzie home maker, the list goes on.
seasons 1-3 were alot more serious. i thought season 4 was excellent! so the downhill slope cant be blamed on kern or McGowan. just the inability to come up with new ideas, and to make sure the ideas MAKE SENSE!!
and anyway, like it has been said, connie did not write many episodes, she was just responsible for creating the story of charmed.
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ljones
Whitelighter
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Post by ljones on Feb 14, 2008 15:37:27 GMT -5
Actually, the series' decline can be blamed on Kern. He had remained the producer after Season 4.
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pubesy
Witch
"If I could dream at all, it would be about you. And I'm not ashamed of it." - Edward Cullen
Posts: 1,171
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Post by pubesy on Feb 14, 2008 22:09:02 GMT -5
i don't think it is completely kern's fault for the decline. it was just the lack of original ideas by ALL the writers and producers. including Combs and Milano.
i dont think you can blame ALL the bad plots on just one person
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Post by whitelightertony on Feb 15, 2008 1:54:30 GMT -5
Well, how much control did Holly and Alyssa actually have over the storylines?
Sure, they were producers, but Kern had more authority than they did.
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Kit-the-cat
Witch
There are tons of people I'd like to freeze for all of eternity, but we won't go into that!-Holly
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Post by Kit-the-cat on Feb 15, 2008 7:48:36 GMT -5
Ok i never said that Rose is to blame for the down fall of charmed. She simple went in and did what she was paid to do, which was read a script wrote by Brad Kern. Who is to blame.
Yes seasons 1-3 were a lot more serious, and that is what made the first few seasons amazing. Season 1-3 concerntrated more on Wicca where as the later seasons where all about Unicorns, Goblins, Dragons. It got silly and unrealistic, and Charmed should not of gone silly. It should of stayed grounded. Or as grounded as possible, considering the topic of the show.
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pubesy
Witch
"If I could dream at all, it would be about you. And I'm not ashamed of it." - Edward Cullen
Posts: 1,171
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Post by pubesy on Feb 15, 2008 8:43:38 GMT -5
i dont think the show ever focused on wicca (as in the religion), but it did in the earlier seasons focus more on the craft side (making potions, using the BOS, scrying, etc).
but other than that i completely agree with you drewsGal
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ljones
Whitelighter
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Post by ljones on Feb 16, 2008 11:42:47 GMT -5
i dont think the show ever focused on wicca (as in the religion), but it did in the earlier seasons focus more on the craft side (making potions, using the BOS, scrying, etc). but other than that i completely agree with you drewsGal They tried to focus on Wicca . . . occasionally . . . with episodes like "All Halliwells' Eve", Piper and Leo's marriage in "Just Harried", "Witch Trial" and Prue's funeral in "Charmed Again". The sisters' possession a Book of Shadows (something that Wiccan witches do possess) is also another example. |
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pubesy
Witch
"If I could dream at all, it would be about you. And I'm not ashamed of it." - Edward Cullen
Posts: 1,171
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Post by pubesy on Feb 17, 2008 0:24:57 GMT -5
yeah, but they are teeny tiny examples,
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