|
Post by pipercharmedphreak on Oct 30, 2007 21:57:18 GMT -5
[/quote]Actually . . . Phoebe was as intellectually capable as Prue. But her personality had a way of getting in the way of her common sense. Sometimes, Prue's own personality and tendency to jump to conclusions got in the way of her common sense.[/quote] definately just look at Sin Fransico!
|
|
|
Post by vandergraafk on Oct 31, 2007 18:00:45 GMT -5
I beg to disagree in two respects. First, Phoebe's flailing mathematical abilities were a subject of ridicule on several occasions. Second, the entire episode of Painted World hinges on Phoebe's struggles with what we might call book learning. Now, I will grant you that there are other measures of intelligence as Martin Gardner has eloquently argued for and written about. Still, Phoebe does not appear to have enjoyed the same academic success as Piper or Prue. Indeed, each of them completed college within four years. Phoebe did not.
I don't want to make too much out of the latter. Phoebe, unlike Piper or Paige, actually went to graduate school. And, from what we gather, she wrote a half-way decent term paper on the subject of imaginary friends, enough to receive an A- (I believe). And, Phoebe may simply have been a child not overly excited by secondary school. She found her calling only after first following her curiosity and opening the Book of Shadows. Besides, in which high school are courses on pyschology even offered?
As for the assertion that Phoebe was as intellectually capable as Prue, I don't think there's enough evidence to suggest that. Again, my remarks were confined to the traditional understanding of intellectually capable with respect to acquired knowledge. Certainly, Prue had a vast storehouse of knowledge about the antiquities. Phoebe had nothing comparable to offer. Worse: Prue openly employed her intellect in order to move ahead in the business world, lambaste Phoebe for being lost and lacking vision, and take charge of the Charmed Ones.
Indeed, I might even argue that Prue maintained this perspective up until the events of Love Hurts. Once she gained an understanding of Phoebe's power of precognition, Prue began to appreciate the challenges that Phoebe had in mastering this bewildering power. From that point onward until the disagreement over Cole, Prue and Phoebe actually get along, as Prue alters her standards for judging Phoebe.
|
|
|
Post by whitelightertony on Oct 31, 2007 18:37:00 GMT -5
My high school offered Psychology (and eventually, AP Psychology). But perhaps Phoebe's high school didn't offer it? Or maybe Phoebe was just too busy partying, drinking, smoking, and dating?
|
|
ljones
Whitelighter
Posts: 4,123
|
Post by ljones on Oct 31, 2007 23:54:12 GMT -5
One, Phoebe has always been better with computer skills than her sisters. She did not have any struggles with "book learning". She simply did not have the college education to get that job she wanted in "Painted World", which undermined her self-esteem.
Two, Phoebe became a college graduate by the end of Season 3. So, I don't understand when you say that she has not enjoyed the same success as Piper or Prue. She had interrupted her college education before or right after Grams' death. After spending time in college in Seasons 2 and 3, she managed to acquire a Bachelor's degree. In Season 7, she had decided to continue her education for a Master's.
So, I don't understand this belief that Phoebe was not as intelligent as Prue or Piper. Even before continuing her college education, Phoebe seemed just as capable of understanding the supernatural world as Prue . . . and more so than Piper.
|
|
|
Post by vandergraafk on Nov 1, 2007 11:15:19 GMT -5
You obviously have missed the point. You can't examine the question by simply looking at what Phoebe later does. You need to examine the self-image she acquired whilst experiencing high school. Prue was a very successful cheerleader who also excelled in academics. Piper excelled as well in academics, but lacked the self-confidence to achieve the social success that Prue had achieved. Phoebe hung out with the wrong crowd so to speak. She presumably ditched a lot of classes (like Paige) and didn't do well academically. In terms of her self-image as a result of this, she probably had great doubts about herself.
Were these warranted? It seems you and I agree that it was not. Unfortunately, that's not what high school does to students. As a high school teacher, I see that every day. Too many times, kids are told, shown or remonstrated for what they can't do. Yet, we (the politicians and bureaucrats) keep taking away opportunities for children to find themselves in school. Let's force everyone to go to college and denigrate working with hands: the arts, mechanics, carpentry, etc.
Prue, unfortunately, as a classic Type A personality, added to Phoebe's low self-image by constantly heaping scorn on her. I'm equally certain that Prue lambasted her poor "academic" record repeatedly. Phoebe only enrolled in community college while in San Francisco and fled from San Francisco the moment Grams died. True, she might have wished to search for her father who supposedly was working in New York, or at least, based there. But, it was as much to flee the stifling atmosphere she imagined would ensue once Prue took over.
P.S. So Phoebe didn't struggle with mathematics? Then how do you explain all of the references to that in later Charmed episodes. Or, is mathematics not a part of "book learning"? Besides, in the Painted World, she becomes a whiz at all sorts of subjects. By inference, I take that to mean that she did not show any particular skill in any of those areas whilst in high school.
If you are going to misquote me, then at least acknowledge this. In my first entry, you chose to quote fully the context of my comment. "Worse: Phoebe was not as capable intellectually of countering Prue." But then you choose to distort my meaning in your retort by writing that "Phoebe was not as capable intellectually". Well, that's not what I wrote and clearly not what I meant. Leaving out the phrase "of countering Prue" distorts the entire meaning. What I meant was that on any given issue that allowed Prue to employ the vast storehouse of knowledge she had built up, Phoebe was more or less out of her league. She didn't have at her fingertips a lot of "book knowledge". Nor was she inclined to take on Prue at this level of debate. Does that mean she wasn't intellectually capable? No, of course, it doesn't.
For example, if you tried to engage in a discussion with me on German politics, I probably would bury you. If, on the other hand, we had a discussion on all things "Wiccan", I would get creamed. Is either one of us intellectually incapable? No. Are we intellectually disadvantaged in certain areas, clearly. Could we overcome that if we chose to, yes? Do I wish to master all things Wiccan? No. Did Phoebe wish to master all things Prue? No! No! No! Especially since Phoebe viewed Prue's obsessive tendencies as one reason why Prue was so darned uptight!
|
|
ljones
Whitelighter
Posts: 4,123
|
Post by ljones on Nov 1, 2007 17:28:52 GMT -5
Sorry, but I still disagree with you.
Wasn't it established that despite being a screw up, Phoebe was still a good student in school? And wasn't the same established for Paige?
|
|
|
Post by whitelightertony on Nov 1, 2007 18:15:18 GMT -5
Paige didn't become a good student until after her adopted parents were killed.
|
|
|
Post by vandergraafk on Nov 1, 2007 18:38:36 GMT -5
I never got that impression about Phoebe. Rather, Phoebe had the reputation not only as problem child, she kept it up after she left school (Pre-Witched when she was arrested for shoplifting). Besides, if she went to community college, it probably was because she didn't have the grades to get into a good school.
Unfortunately, I have no idea why you disagree with me. Maybe it's because you've concocted in your mind something you think I wrote and vehemently disagree with that. As I pointed out above, your initial disagreement rests on a very obvious distortion resulting from the elimination of the qualifier. Turning a limited statement into a generalized discussion about her intellectual qualities is disingenuous to say the least.
|
|
|
Post by whitelightertony on Nov 2, 2007 0:35:38 GMT -5
Also, Phoebe and Aviva's conversation in "The Fourth Sister" implies that Phoebe cut classes quite often - - and thereby did not excel in school.
|
|
|
Post by vandergraafk on Nov 2, 2007 11:44:11 GMT -5
Yes, that's my recollection too. In Triquetra, Keith Topping notes that "Aviva sneaks out of school to meet Phoebe. She guesses (correctly) that Phoebe used to do similar things when she was Aviva's age." (page 35).
Paige and Phoebe are so alike in this respect, it is uncanny. Yet, how each overcame this "problem" is different. The death of Paige's adopted parents and her profound shock and grief over her unexplained survival propels Paige to succeed academically in order to prove to herself and her deceased parents that she could do it. For Phoebe, opening the Book of Shadows, receiving her powers and using these powers for good - helping the down on their luck older folks in I've Got Me Under Your Skin - turns her life around. All the heaped upon scorn from days past - Freebie, the Shoplifting, School Ditching Delinquent - melted away, as Phoebe found herself.
|
|
ljones
Whitelighter
Posts: 4,123
|
Post by ljones on Nov 3, 2007 2:45:52 GMT -5
Also, Phoebe and Aviva's conversation in "The Fourth Sister" implies that Phoebe cut classes quite often - - and thereby did not excel in school. Cutting classes in school and not getting good grades is not a sign of a lack of intelligence. This is what was said in "The Fourth Sister": That's it. There have been constant hints that Phoebe was rather wild in high school. But nothing has ever been hinted that she did not excel in school or was a semi-idiot. I get the feeling that you two are projecting your own beliefs of what Phoebe's intelligence should have been like, because of her wild past.
|
|
|
Post by whitelightertony on Nov 3, 2007 3:31:17 GMT -5
Well what evidence have you found that suggests Phoebe was intelligent during her childhood or in high school?
|
|
|
Post by vandergraafk on Nov 5, 2007 19:11:37 GMT -5
Please, please, please stop abusing the terms of this debate. Ljones, you do an excellent job of arguing with yourself. I never wrote that Phoebe was a semi-idiot (whatever that is) or lacking in intelligence. You are the one who has conjured those terms. What I said was that high school was not a place where Phoebe found a lot of "academic" success. How do you imagine I would respond to this statement? Unless you achieve academic success in high school, you are going to be a loser in life. Here's my response both as a teacher and a citizen. My father failed all of his high school classes bar two: mathematics and shop. For that, he became a highly skilled cable splicer for the telephone company and was able to build many things with his hands. High school, the way it's structured and the things it demands of its inhabitants, don't always bring out the best in people. No Child Left Behind is making this even worse. I see Phoebe as someone who was not inspired in high school and voted occasionally with her feet to opt out of a stifling environment. Unfortunately, her school probably did not offer stimulating classes like psychology as whitelightertony's did. So, she played hookie. Are there consequences to that? Of course, she would not have gotten a high enough GPA to attend a top flight university. Instead, she was lucky to have community college as an option. Now, does any of this mean: once and done? By that I mean, if you blow it in high school does that mean you might as well kiss life goodbye? Well, it could. It certainly places you at a disadvantage. Can these be overcome? Of course, but the sacrifice may even be greater. Was Phoebe able to overcome her poor academic record? Yes, certainly. Did she ever match Prue's level of book knowledge? Probably not. Did it matter? To Phoebe, why should it? She found her own path, one that led her to professional success and contentment.
|
|
|
Post by foxfire on Nov 8, 2007 11:43:47 GMT -5
Hmm... a conversation about Phoebe's intelligence! How intriguing. I think I'll add my two cents.
Something about Phoebe I always found that I related to most was her insecurity about her intelligence. While she's not good at math or (I assume) science, she's good at reading people and was the sister who demonstrated the most techno know-how. I would assume that Phoebe would have had to have had good grades to get into college and on top of that would have had to of got good grades on her SATs, would she have not? Unfortunately, I'm not too certain of the standards in the States seeing as I'm in Canada and all we have to send in are our grades.
As I see it, Prue and Phoebe seemed to have been the "smart sisters". I see Prue as being the person who could help when it came to history and such but Phoebe was good with people problems.
|
|
|
Post by vandergraafk on Nov 8, 2007 19:10:55 GMT -5
Would that be two Canadian cents (worth more) or two American cents (now worth less)? In the event, in order to get into a top flight college or university, you will need high SAT scores and good academic grades. For example, at UCLA incoming students have a GPA (Grade Point Average) of 4.25 (I believe). That's above and beyond straight A's. Such scores can only be achieved if students take AP (Advanced Placement) classes that supposedly are taught on a college level. An A there is worth 5 points, not 4.
There is a secondary and even tertiary structure to the American post-graduate system. There are, of course, state universities that aim more for B and C students. And, for really struggling students, there are community colleges where they can take basic, high school level, classes in order to get ready for the real world of academia. Or, students might attend such schools in order to transfer after two years to, say, a UCLA (University of California in Los Angeles). Indeed, the Terminator expects more students to go this route. And, of course, community colleges are great places for continuing learners (folks of my generation who want to go back and dust up their skills or learn something new).
Phoebe probably had no choice but to attend community college because of low grades. She might have been able to attend San Francisco State (part of the California State University system that trains teachers and provides instruction for non-top flight students).
|
|
|
Post by whitelightertony on Nov 8, 2007 20:35:46 GMT -5
They never really told us the name of the college that Phoebe attended, but as you suggest, I would imagine it was closer to a state university (where C and B students can get in) rather than a competitive university that requires high SAT or ACT scores.
|
|
|
Post by foxfire on Nov 8, 2007 20:53:22 GMT -5
I'm disappointed that we didn't get to see a lot of Phoebe's college life. When she first announced her return to school it suggested to me that we'd be getting guest stars of several new teachers and students when really we got all of one episode to see what college was like for her ("Animal Pragmatism").
I would have preferred more of a 90210 approach to Phoebe's life in college. Also, I'm confused as to how Phoebe graduated in season... 4? Shouldn't she have been in college for four years?
|
|
|
Post by vandergraafk on Nov 8, 2007 21:10:06 GMT -5
Before Phoebe left for New York, she was probably taking classes at community college. She may have earned as many as 2 years of credit for all we know. How this squares with her "shoplifting" behavior in Pre-Witched is anybody's guess? Remember: she was taking lots and lots of classes during Season 3. Once the psych bug got a hold of her, I imagine she was quite motivated. That - and a certain Cole Turner!
|
|
ljones
Whitelighter
Posts: 4,123
|
Post by ljones on Nov 8, 2007 21:44:38 GMT -5
Before Phoebe left for New York, she was probably taking classes at community college. She may have earned as many as 2 years of credit for all we know. How this squares with her "shoplifting" behavior in Pre-Witched is anybody's guess? Remember: she was taking lots and lots of classes during Season 3. Once the psych bug got a hold of her, I imagine she was quite motivated. That - and a certain Cole Turner! How do you know that Phoebe had been in community college before she left for New York? By the time she had graduated from college around the end of Season Three, she had earned a Bachelor's degree. It took her at least a year-and-a-half (from mid-Season 2 to the end of Season 3) to finish earning that Bachelors' Degree. Which means that she may have completed 2.5 years of college before she left for New York.
|
|
|
Post by whitelightertony on Nov 9, 2007 3:24:25 GMT -5
She also might have taken summer courses in the Summer of 2000.
|
|