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Post by whitelightertony on Jul 1, 2008 13:25:44 GMT -5
He was made up by me.  If Phoebe died, why wouldn't Piper or Paige have mentioned it in their voiceovers? |
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xoFeliciaFinleyxo
Elder
*It's me charmedandhollyfan, just changed my name* I LOVE FELICIA FINLEY!!! She's my idol!!
Posts: 6,081
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Post by xoFeliciaFinleyxo on Jul 1, 2008 13:41:24 GMT -5
i truly think that the girl was Piper's daughter. After all she wanted to have a daughter right?
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Post by The Original P3 on Jul 1, 2008 13:45:28 GMT -5
i truly think that the girl was Piper's daughter. After all she wanted to have a daughter right? Yeah sure. Cuz if you want something that means it's gonna happen right? Damn..my billion dollars should be getting here any day now. How exciting! ;D |
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Post by HollymCombs on Jul 1, 2008 15:41:24 GMT -5
I have a view final things I want to say on this topic. I don't want to get into a big argument over it, but I thought I might as well just put a few things out there. Although it wasn't said in the show, Brad Kern said in December 2006's Charmed Magazine that the grandchild seen closing the door was named Prudence as a final nod to Prue. Brad Kern would be aware of this kind of detail don't you think? So I personally do believe that her name is Prudence after all. And this is moreso a question out of my own curiosity. For those of you who believe that the girl in the scene with Piper, Leo, Wyatt, and Chris is not Piper's daughter, and is not named Melinda, how do you explain the Book of Three Volume 2 saying that she is? Since the Book of Three Volume 2 is an official Charmed book, in my personal opinion it really settles the matter. I'm just wondering if I'm maybe missing something that would make this seem less than reliable. Why do you not believe what is stated in this book? I am not going to argue either side as to who the girl in the last scene is. I personally am not sure that she really IS the daughter of someone imparticular. I believe that she is Piper's granddaughter, but I think that that could be all that was ever decided. Maybe the writers never thought "this girl is Chris's daughter, or this girl is Melinda's daughter" (etc.). Maybe they just thought that it would be nice to end it with Piper and her granddaughter. That way it is open ended for interpretation. I know that was a bit of a confusing explanation lol, but hopefully you know what I mean  . And here is one more thing. This part doesn't prove anything (I realize this), but this is my take on it. The finale was meant to tie all loose ends with the girls. It gave them all their happily ever afters. They showed what happened in their futures. I do believe that certain things were meant to be left open ended, but I think the gist was supposed to be assumed. When you see Piper with her sons and then another girl, I believe that you are supposed to assume that it is her daughter. I don't think they wanted you to be thinking, "oh maybe Phoebe died and Piper is raising her daughter". Or anything along those lines. Wow this is long. I just have one last point though lol. It costs the show money for every person that they hire. They showed 2 girls with Phoebe, and none of them were the same actress as the girl who was with Piper, Leo, Wyatt, and Chris. It wouldn't make sense for them to hire an extra actress for the girl with Piper if she was Phoebe's daughter. They would have just used one of the same girls that were in the scene where Phoebe goes into labor. Okay, I'm done now! . Sorry, that was way longer than I expected lol. |
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Post by vandergraafk on Jul 1, 2008 17:06:28 GMT -5
From Charmed Magazine Issue #14 (page 63), in response to a question regarding names, Brad Kern made the following statement:
I don't know (with respect to the names of Paige's children). We never had to come up with a name. I can't even remember, actually, right now, if I came up with names for the stage direction of the script. I do know that Prudence was the name of the last girl that magically closed the door on the series, but that name never made it into dialogue. But in the script or at least in my heart that was my final nod to Prue."
Perhaps part of the confusion arises from the question that was posed by a certain Kelly Follen of London who asked what the names of the sisters' future children were. Asserted was the statement that "(w)e know that Phoebe's daughter Melinda was named after Melinda Warren."
Yet, in the Book of Three Volume 2, we only know that their (Piper and Leo's) daughter, Melinda, is born when Chris is three. It seems very unlikely that both Phoebe and Piper would name a daughter Melinda, first or middle name. Imagine the confusion. Besides, as I have argued, the full name is Prudence Melinda. For the reasons both Assassin Witch and I have offered, Melinda would be the name she went by.
We also know from the Book of Three Volume 2 that Phoebe and Coop have three daughters (two and four years apart). Since Chris was conceived during Season 6 (2004) and born at season's end, then Melinda must have been conceived during 2007. Given that Coop and Phoebe don't get married until sometime after May 2006, Phoebe's conception of her first daughter would be some time thereafter - before, during or after her nuptials to Coop.
It is possible that Phoebe gave birth before Piper. However, if we accept the visionquest from The Legend of Sleepy Halliwell as correct, then Phoebe is pregnant when Chris appears to be about 4 or 5. Prudence Melinda would already have been 1 or 2 at this time.
Now Chris is already two years old by the time Forever Charmed occurs. If this is Phoebe's second child, then her first daughter is already 1 or so years old. Thus, Phoebe and Piper's daughters would be about the same age. It is highly unlikely that Phoebe and Piper would choose the same name at approximately the same time.
If, on the other hand, this is Phoebe's first daughter, then it is even less likely that Phoebe would have named her daughter the same as Piper's. She would already be aware that Piper, Leo, the boys, Auntie Paige and everyone else would have referred to Piper's daughter as Melinda.
I hope this helps! Apparently, Hollycombs and I were looking at the same issue of Charmed Magazine. Still, some of her contribution is murky. Let me summarize. Hollycombs asserts that "for those of you who believe that the girl in the scene is not Piper's daughter ..." the Book of Three Volume 2 states otherwise. No, it does not. Neither in the synopsis of the episode (Forever Charmed) nor in the family tree (page 19) is the designation of Piper's daughter as Melinda ever tied to this particular scene. All we have as proof is apparently the scene direction that surely must have this noted and Melinda's evidence from the actress who played the girl. (Have I got that correct, Melinda?)
The girl in the last scene is clearly Piper's granddaughter. Doesn't she ask Piper to read on? More, grandmama or something to that effect. Second, Kern already has indicated it was Prudence. What we don't know is whether it was Chris or Wyatt's daughter. My own preference is for Chris since Chris closed the door (violently) on Season 5. What a way to tie up loose ends!
Coincidence, I think not. As Phoebe surely would have noticed, there are no coincidences in Charmedverse. That Piper and Leo have nine grandchildren (Book of Three, Volume 2 - page 19) is mentioned. Let's see nine is three squared. The power of three, each of the three has three children. Coincidence, I think not!
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Post by HollymCombs on Jul 1, 2008 19:29:38 GMT -5
I appreciate all of the information you have provided.
Just to clarify on my part, I do not own the Book of Three Volume 2 (although after this discussion I think I'm going to have to buy it lol). So what I stated about it saying that Piper has a daughter named Melinda is what I have read online (I have not seen the actual page in the book where this is stated). Plus, as far as the magazine goes I do not own that either. I read that online as well. So I read moreso the summary of what Brad said online (not word for word). I'm sorry if I gave you the impression that I actually was reading it firsthand. That was not my intention.
I have one question though. Where did you find out that Phoebe's daughter was named Melinda? I haven't heard that before. I agree if Phoebe's daughter's name is Melinda it would be strange for Piper's daughter to be named Melinda as well.
I'm slightly confused as to what you are arguing when you say that what the Book of Three Volume 2 mentions does not tie Piper's daughter to that particular scene. Do you believe that Piper does have a daughter, but that is just not Piper's daughter in that scene? I lost you a bit as to what your belief is.
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Post by vandergraafk on Jul 1, 2008 20:10:08 GMT -5
No, I clearly believe that it is Piper's daughter in that scene (the scene where Piper is dispensing bagged lunches to her children). What cannot be claimed is that the Book of Three, Volume 2 indicates who that child is. The book merely says that Piper has a daughter named (Prudence) Melinda. It can be logically inferred - unless you are a canonista - that this is indeed Melinda in the scene. Melinda, the contributor, claims that there is evidence that this is indeed Melinda in the scene. This is information she has from knowledge of the girl who played the role.
As for the Phoebe's daughter named Melinda, this was the assertion contained in the question that Charmed Magazine #14 asked Brad kern (the December issue you referred to). Where this Kelly of London got this information I haven't a clue. That neither Charmed Magazine nor Brad kern took note of this bit of misinformation is puzzling. Charmed Magazine's oversight is understandable. I can list loads of errors that make their way into this magazine, especially as pertains the powers of the witches. Brad Kern's "oversight" is a bit more vexing. As it was contained in a very long question, he might not have given it a thought or perhaps he focused on "Melinda" and not the name Phoebe that preceded it.
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Post by K. Aabye on Jul 2, 2008 2:38:51 GMT -5
Yeah you are correct. I do believe when information is from a reliable source then it is correct. They don't take a role about someone they haven't read about. If I didn't know that little girl then I wouldn't be telling you on here that the character she played was named Melinda.
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Post by whitelightertony on Jul 2, 2008 4:27:45 GMT -5
They never really give us an exact year when Phoebe gave birth to her first daughter, so it's unknown whether Phoebe's oldest is younger or older than her cousin, Melinda.
As far as overlooking details such as a failure to give Paige's twin daughters first names: perhaps Kern left it open-ended so that someone could retcon identities for those characters, if the series is ever revisited in spinoff/sequel form someday?
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Post by vandergraafk on Jul 3, 2008 11:17:03 GMT -5
Oh, come on, whitelightertony, you really are expecting me to toss you a slo-pitch ball, aren't you? I know you have names for Paige's twins (so do I). And, you've thought about their magical powers (or lack thereof). So, batter up!
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Post by whitelightertony on Jul 4, 2008 11:44:26 GMT -5
I subscribe to the theory that Paige named her daughters Pandora and Posie.
They can both orb, levitate, glamour, sense, and heal.
Pandora develops the whitelighter power of thermokinesis (the ability to heat things), and the witch power of combustion (which manifests itself in exploding orbs).
Posie develops the whitelighter power of bulbokinesis (the ability to produce bubbles), and the witch power of temporal stasis (which manifests itself in frozen orbs).
Pandora later takes over for Leo as the new Headmatron of Magic School.
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Post by vandergraafk on Jul 4, 2008 12:09:52 GMT -5
Who would name their daughter Pandora? Besides, do you really think Paige is into that whole P thing?
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Post by K. Aabye on Jul 4, 2008 12:50:33 GMT -5
Apparently she must have been, but I do believe Posie is the granddaughter of Paige and not daughter. It was stated in one of the official books "The warren witches" that one daughter was named Pandora (the other daughter's name wasn't mentioned) and it was stated that Paige had a granddaughter named Posie.
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Post by vandergraafk on Jul 4, 2008 14:07:57 GMT -5
Are you referring to Seasons of the Witch? What source are you referring to?
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Post by Cara Halliwell on Jul 4, 2008 14:09:08 GMT -5
Melinda, that is a book. The author could have just made it up. im just sayin'.
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Post by vandergraafk on Jul 4, 2008 14:53:20 GMT -5
Which book are we referring to? Most of these were written before Forever Charmed "finalized" things, as it were.
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Post by K. Aabye on Jul 5, 2008 3:14:58 GMT -5
I am referring to the book called "The Warren Witches" google it. I know the books were made before Forever Charmed aired but as the names of Paige's twins were never mentioned on the show, maybe the book was right when they stated her name to be Pandora. I just don't get why they didn't state the name of the other twin. The final episode of the show was supposed to have tied up all lose ends but apparently it didn't and that's why this discussion is still going.
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Post by vandergraafk on Jul 5, 2008 12:36:40 GMT -5
Boy, this brings back memories. Yes, it is the collection of short stories published under the title "The Warren Witches". The story you are referring to, "Family History", was written by Laura J. Burns. The relevant passage reads as follows:
"Paige had to force her jaws to stay closed. Everything that Posie said made her more curious. So her daughter was a strong witch, and she knew about the power of three, and she was teaching her own child the craft---
'What's her name?' Paige blurted out. 'Your mom?'
'Pandora,' Posie said.
Piper snorted, and Paige felt a blush creep up her cheeks. She was going to name her daughter Pandora? That was just asking for trouble.
'But she calls herself Dora,' Posie added.
'Can we stop talking about the future, please?' Leo begged."
At least this description of Paige correctly depicted Paige as introspective enough to question why she would name her own daughter Pandora. Yet, Paige does it nevertheless. Hmmm.
To answer your questions, Melinda. First, since this collection was published in 2005 - and the story was probably written in 2004, there is quite a time gap between its creation and the filming of Forever Charmed. Second, there is no reason to assume that Mr. Kern was even aware of this story and the names given to Paige's offspring. Third, who was the father? Richard? That might explain why Pandora was a powerful witch, but alas Richard and Paige ended as Richard tread ever more preciptously along the path of warlockdom. Stripping his powers and severing her relationship to Richard was the only solution. Fourth, as the canonistas will surely browbeat you heavily with, the books are not part of the Charmed canon. (My own view is more catholic, but not akin to the Catholicism imposed by the canonistas.) Yes, I am aware that Diane Gallagher has a story in this fine collection, and she was integral to Charmed. Paul Ruditis has a story therein as well, and both he and Ms. Gallagher are responsible for editing both volumes of the the Book of Three.
My point remains: as well as I know Paige - I claim to channel her all of the time (yeah, right vandergraafk. and what drugs are you taking?), Paige would never name her daughter Pandora. And, she wouldn't be hung up with the whole P thing. Now, the J thing: Julie, Jamie, Jenny or Jo. That sly twist of humor is entirely within Paige's mindset. Henry wouldn't have a clue!
The essence of Paige can be found in I Dream of Phoebe when she asks a genial Phoebe whether she shouldn't rather be attending to Major Nelson. Paige would never do this to her own daughter!
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Post by whitelightertony on Jul 5, 2008 15:11:06 GMT -5
Well, it's true the Charmed books are not officially considered canon (except maybe for "Trickery Treat"...and not even that has been verified by the producers).
But why wouldn't Paige name one of her daughters Pandora? Why is that so out of character for Paige?
And maybe Posie was a granddaughter of Paige's...but she was Pandora's daughter, and Pandora named her own daughter after her twin sister Posie?
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Post by vandergraafk on Jul 5, 2008 15:16:55 GMT -5
You're grasping at straws, whitelightertony. Paige would never buy into this whole P thing, although she would use the occasion of two daughters - twins, no less - to honor her "twin" mothers: Patty, her birth mother and Millicent (unnamed, I know) her adopted mother.
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