Piper's daughter or not???

[emilyischarmed]

So glad someone raised this question! I absolutely thought this was their daughter. I like to think that there's a girl-cousin joint power and boy-cousin joint power down the road for these folks. I am terminally forgiving of Charmed, so I was okay with how vague this part was. It was a jam packed finale, so either the language was cut explaining or it was meant to be implied, either way, I was okay with it. lol

[Deleted]

She's Mystery Girl and nothing more. She's not worth writing a sentence about, let alone an entire Wiki entry.

She is certainly not worth an entry bigger than Hannah's, that's for damned sure. 

At most, Mystery Girl is a footnote, if even that.

[Deleted]

Aug 5, 2015 0:19:57 GMT -5 @tim66 said:

She is certainly not worth an entry bigger than Hannah's, that's for damned sure. 

Yeah, that just boggles the mind.  How can this character who doesn't even EXIST in canon warrant a larger Wiki page than Hannah Webster?  Yes, Hannah wasn't exactly the most fleshed-out villain, but damn.  She was still in multiple episodes and has a backstory of some sort.  She has a CANON NAME.

[Deleted]

How can this character who doesn't even EXIST in canon warrant a larger Wiki page than Hannah Webster? Yes, Hannah wasn't exactly the most fleshed-out villain, but damn. She was still in multiple episodes and has a backstory of some sort. She has a CANON NAME.

You got me, Betty.  Mystery Girl does not deserve such a large entry.  She didn't even have a speaking role, for crying out loud.

Mystery Girl could have been anyone.  She could have been the daughter of a friend that Piper and Leo were babysitting, for all we know. 

[Deleted]

(This was something I wrote several years ago that I felt like posting again.)

Mystery Girl: The Smurfette of TCS

While many TCS fans didn't like idea of Chris & Wyatt having a younger sibling, period, I think we can all agree that the response to the infamous Lunchbox Scene at the end of "Forever Charmed" would've been much better had "Mystery Boy" been with Wyatt & Chris, instead. In fact, it seems like a good number of TCS fans are receptive of Chris & Wyatt having a younger male sibling, if the large number of TCS fanfics that include their cousin, Henry Jr, are any indication.

So, why then, are these fans somewhat willing to accept Henry Jr. or a younger male sibling, but not Mystery Girl or any other female cousin or sibling?

Unfortunately, extremely problematic tropes and gender dynamics arise when Wyatt & Chris have a younger sister rather than a younger brother. While the majority of fans aren't feminists (sadly), and therefore, may not have the analytical tools to really understand the problems caused by Mystery Girl's gender, most of them, at least subconsciously, sense something "wrong" with Mystery Girl's presence in a TCS series, and that's where the fans' negative response comes from.

Now, of course, some of you may be asking why Mystery Girl's gender, specifically, causes so many problems for TCS, and why would it be "less sexist" for the TCS cast to be all-male. That answer's easy--The Smurfette Principle. According to TV Tropes:

For any series not aimed solely at females, odds are high that only one female will be in the regular cast.

The Smurfette Principle is the tendency for works of fiction to have exactly one female amongst an ensemble of male characters, in spite of the fact that roughly half of the human race is female. Unless a show is purposefully aimed at a female viewing audience, the main characters will tend to be disproportionately male.

In many series, men will have various different personalities, but women will always be The Chick. Thus, by the Law Of Conservation Of Detail, you only need one.

In other cases, the women are feminized versions of existing male characters.

(Link: tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheSmurfettePrinciple)

As you can guess by the above definition, a TCS series that includes Mystery Girl would be a classic "Smurfette" setup, with a lone woman among men. The Smufette Principle, of course, happens to be one of the most insidiously sexist tropes in existence.

The main idea that the Smufette Principle rests on is the concept that the lone female character will represent women as a whole, whereas the male characters will represent individuals with individual personalities. Therefore, the words and actions of the male characters will reflect on them as individuals, whereas the words and actions of the female character will reflect on women as a whole; I'm sure you can now guess how this trope can lead to extensive sexism and misogyny in a work.

To look at TCS, specifically, let's observe how the Smurfette Principle affects the series when Mystery Girl is included.

Say that Mystery Girl is going to protect innocents with Wyatt and Chris. Of course, since she's the youngest sibling and the only one that isn't part whitelighter, she won't have the "power" the boys have, and therefore, will need to either be saved/protected or kept at home more than them. Since Mystery Girl is a representative of women as a whole, by custom of the Smurfette Principle, this TCS series would be promoting the idea that women are inherently weaker than men, and therefore, will need to constantly be rescued and protected, should they dare to leave the "feminine" domain of hearth and home. Is this a message we want to be sending people the 21st Century, especially in the spinoff of a show that was all about strong independent women doing their own thing?

But, you ask, what if Mystery Girl isn't out protecting innocents with Wyatt & Chris? What if she's still at home with Piper & Leo, while the boys are off in another town? Well, believe it or not, the sexist implications are even worse in that scenario. By keeping Mystery Girl, our lone female representative, at home while the boys are off doing their own thing, this TCS series would be sending home the message that women are so much weaker than men that they don't belong anywhere but the home, and don't they dare try to follow the boys out into the public! Again, is this a message we really want to be sending in the 21st Century?

Well, what if Mystery Girl is killed and the boys have to avenge her death? Nope, you can't escape sexist implications here, either. Yet again, you send home the message that women are inherently weaker, since whatever killed Mystery Girl obviously wasn't strong enough to get Wyatt & Chris. In addition to that, this scenario also invokes the dreaded "Women in Refrigerators" trope, or the idea that women only exist to get killed/maimed so they can further the male protagonist's storyline.

I could go on an on, but the main idea is that, no matter what you do with Mystery Girl, sexist implications will always arise. Even if you, personally, don't see her as a representative of women as a whole, by virtue of the Smurfette Principle, she will be seen that way. It's an inevitability in situations where you have a lone woman among men, regardless of whether or not a writer actually feels that way.

And, there, you can see why most TCS fans would prefer Mystery Girl to either not exist or be turned into Mystery Boy. You completely bypass the Smurfette Principle and all of the nasty tropes it leads to when your cast of 2-3 is all-male. In fact, you even have room for gender role subversion with this setup, such as making the youngest guy be the "damsel in distress" or the eldest guy be a nurturing "mother-like" figure. You actually have room to send a message about gender that is acceptable for this decade.

Of course, none of this really matters now, since the hypothetical TCS spinoff will never be created. But, then again, a non-existent spinoff also bypasses the Smurfette Principle.

[Deleted]

As someone who witnessed the carnage of the Melinda Fallout on the original Charmed Sons board (that almost made one Admin quit) it makes me wince that this character, who had no lines and was onscreen for all of ten seconds, could cause so much trouble. If there was ANY reason that flash forward should have been cut, that was it.

I mean, as you said, Betty, anyone trying to use Mystery Girl in their stories is damned if they do and damned if they don't. The Smurfette thing is hard to get around. I can see why so many wish the character had never been brought up, or consign her to be a cousin or friend of TCS, rather than their sister. It seems far less troublesome.

Of course, since my stories deal with characters outside the main family, whether Mystery Girl is a cousin, friend, or sister, really doesn't matter to me. However, I can see why anyone trying to do a TCS centered series faces the issue of how to address this character. She exists, and thus must be acknowledged. However, the problem is just how to acknowledge her. As I said, the easiest solution is to just make her a cousin (Phoebe's daughter) or a friend visiting. Much easier to get around.

Still, it's possible that Mystery Girl was yet another rat that sank the TCS ship.

Hopefully this will be another mistake the reboot, should it happen, will learn from and avoid.

[adzpower]

Which girl? The one with young Wyatt and Chris? I think that was pretty obviously her daughter.

[Deleted]

It is her daughter. Brad wanted each sister to have three and that's what we get in the flashforward.

Brad Kern (during the flash-forward): "The fact that everyone of them had three children, I thought was a nice touch."

And that's what we see- Phoebe with two kids about to release the third; Paige with three kids; Piper with three kids.

I'm no fan of the sprog overloaded sloppily ever after either, but it happened.

[Deleted]

Sept 10, 2015 17:42:34 GMT -5 @tim66 said:

As someone who witnessed the carnage of the Melinda Fallout on the original Charmed Sons board (that almost made one Admin quit) it makes me wince that this character, who had no lines and was onscreen for all of ten seconds, could cause so much trouble. If there was ANY reason that flash forward should have been cut, that was it.

I mean, as you said, Betty, anyone trying to use Mystery Girl in their stories is damned if they do and damned if they don't. The Smurfette thing is hard to get around. I can see why so many wish the character had never been brought up, or consign her to be a cousin or friend of TCS, rather than their sister. It seems far less troublesome.

Of course, since my stories deal with characters outside the main family, whether Mystery Girl is a cousin, friend, or sister, really doesn't matter to me. However, I can see why anyone trying to do a TCS centered series faces the issue of how to address this character. She exists, and thus must be acknowledged. However, the problem is just how to acknowledge her. As I said, the easiest solution is to just make her a cousin (Phoebe's daughter) or a friend visiting. Much easier to get around.

Still, it's possible that Mystery Girl was yet another rat that sank the TCS ship.

Hopefully this will be another mistake the reboot, should it happen, will learn from and avoid.

Pretty much, Tim.  There's just ZERO way to acknowledge Mystery Girl as a sister of Wyatt and Chris without invoking possibly sexist implications, which is the LAST thing I ever wanted to see in a TCS spinoff.  If the only alternative to "The Charmed Sons + Smurfette" is a full-blown reboot, then bring on the reboot!  I think that's now much more likely to happen than a spinoff, anyways.

[erikamarie]

Sept 11, 2015 7:01:24 GMT -5 @p3nathan said:

It is her daughter. Brad wanted each sister to have three and that's what we get in the flashforward.

Brad Kern (during the flash-forward): "The fact that everyone of them had three children, I thought was a nice touch."

And that's what we see- Phoebe with two kids about to release the third; Paige with three kids; Piper with three kids.

I'm no fan of the sprog overloaded sloppily ever after either, but it happened.

This has been said again and again, even so someon'ld clear up what were the writers smoking when they wrote this

Piper: (Voice Over) Allowing me time to get back to my roots and cook something other than potions, for once. (Piper tastes the sauce.) And open the restaurant I’d always dreamed of owning.

Paige and Phoebe talk about their kids but Piper forgest to mention that, as well as a restaurant, she got a girl: wow,just like Piper!

We've seen Wyatt, Chris and Ladybag while they were coming out of the same school, then we saw Wyatt, Chris and Mistery Girl going to school all together
Why it's so hard to think that Ladybag'ld be in a strong relationship with her cousins!

When Phoebe marries, Wyatt is three and Chris one year old: Phoebe was in a hurry to have a baby, we may think that Ladybag was born after a year,so the three cousins would be close as age, while the second girl, born maybe two years later, could be too young, compared with the boys, to bond in the same way

Why should Ladybag be a guest at the Manor?
For example, seeing that Phoebe may be at least 40 years old when the third child was born, this ccould have caused an hospitalization for a few days, every aunt'dl take care of one of the girls


We can find so many logical explanations about the girl with the lunch bag but only if Piper'll say that the girl is her daughter, that will be her daughter

[Deleted]

Brad wanted each sister to have three and that's what we get in the flashforward.

I suggest you take a look at this TVTrope article.

Basically, what Kern may have intended doesn't mean jack sh*t.  The only thing that actually counts is what ultimately made it on the air.   And there is nothing in that flash forward that gives any identity to Mystery Girl.  Not one. 

Erikamarie has got some excellent alternative ideas.  Mystery Girl could be any on of them.

[Deleted]

Sept 11, 2015 10:52:20 GMT -5 erikamarie said:

This has been said again and again, even so someon'ld clear up what were the writers smoking when they wrote this

Piper: (Voice Over) Allowing me time to get back to my roots and cook something other than potions, for once. (Piper tastes the sauce.) And open the restaurant I’d always dreamed of owning.

Paige and Phoebe talk about their kids but Piper forgest to mention that, as well as a restaurant, she got a girl: wow,just like Piper!

We've seen Wyatt, Chris and Ladybag while they were coming out of the same school, then we saw Wyatt, Chris and Mistery Girl going to school all together
Why it's so hard to think that Ladybag'ld be in a strong relationship with her cousins!

When Phoebe marries, Wyatt is three and Chris one year old: Phoebe was in a hurry to have a baby, we may think that Ladybag was born after a year,so the three cousins would be close as age, while the second girl, born maybe two years later, could be too young, compared with the boys, to bond in the same way

Why should Ladybag be a guest at the Manor?
For example, seeing that Phoebe may be at least 40 years old when the third child was born, this ccould have caused an hospitalization for a few days, every aunt'dl take care of one of the girls


We can find so many logical explanations about the girl with the lunch bag but only if Piper'll say that the girl is her daughter, that will be her daughter

Exactly.  For as long as Piper wanted to have the girl she saw in the "Morality Bites" future, you'd think she would've gladly mentioned having a daughter, and yet, she mostly just talked about her restaurant.  And, that girl wasn't seen or heard from again after the Lunchbox Scene... all other future scenes of Piper's kids were just Wyatt and Chris.

Now, I can believe that Kern WANTED Mystery Girl to be Piper's daughter.  I've even read that an early version of the script actually had that girl telling Piper "I love you, Mommy."  However, the fact remains that none of this made it into the final episode, so Mystery Girl's canon identity is up in the air.  Yes, she COULD be Piper's, but she could also NOT be.  We simply don't know, and unless we get future canon (unlikely), we'll probably never know.

[Deleted]

I hope we're not heading for another Melinda Fallout.  I still have nightmares about the last one, we were beating each other over the head with our own severed limbs.  *shudders*

[Melinda Halliwell]

Well some people tend to agree and disagree on certain things Tim like whether that is Melinda in the flash forward or not.

All you can say really is, "Alright then if you think that is Melinda then your more than welcome to believe it." Even if you don't there.

Everyone has their own opinions which hopefully can be said without any arguments fuelling.

[Esmeralda]

Sept 11, 2015 19:33:25 GMT -5 Melinda Halliwell said:

Well some people tend to agree and disagree on certain things Tim like whether that is Melinda in the flash forward or not.

All you can say really is, "Alright then if you think that is Melinda then your more than welcome to believe it." Even if you don't there.

Everyone has their own opinions which hopefully can be said without any arguments fuelling.

I'm glad we have another member who can agree to disagree.

I believe she's Piper's daughter - it's too obvious. What I don't agree with most fans and what isn't canon is what's her name - that's what's never made clear, just like we have no idea what any of the girls in the next generation are named, or the granddaughter. We know all the boys - Wyatt, Chris, Little Henry and Matthew, but we don't know any of the girls. Most fans think that like the comics, Piper named her daughter Melinda. But that's not what she was going to call Wyatt if he was the girl he should've been. That's why as far as I'm concerned, she'll always be Prudence Melinda Halliwell-Wyatt.

And, yeah, when I posted my version of "Forever Charmed" that was part of the "Melinda wars" at The Charmed Sons, I called her Melinda and even let her have the power to orb, figuring if Leo could pass his powers to his sons when he's dead, he'd still be able to pass them to his daughter, but I've since been convinced by other fans that that doesn't make much sense, and I prefer her being full-witch, just like I prefer Chris being half-Elder and more powerful than his half-whitelighter brother. I believe he's as twice-blessed as his brother - having a Charmed One for a mother and a whitelighter/Elder for a father. This is not the case for S6 Chris, since I'm sure the original Leo became an Elder long after Chris was conceived - or Chris never would've been conceived. Therefore Little Chris grown up will have more and better powers than Wyatt, part of why I'm very glad the spin-off never happened - they would've been too powerful and it would've gotten too boring besides having two leads who can't act their way out of a paper bag - they get by strictly by their looks.

But fans have since convinced me that Piper's daughter's name is actually Prudence Melinda, and if she is called Melinda, it's just using her middle name in order to keep her separate from her aunt. But if other fans want to think her first name is Melinda and Phoebe's the one who has a daughter named Prudence, even if she's younger than Melinda, especially now that's what they're called in the non-canonical comics, that's fine with me. We very simply don't know what her name is, so for each fan, it's up to them to decide what they think her name is - and they're all right. What we do know for sure and what the Charmed wiki is wrong about, she's definitely not the same Melinda from "Morality Bites" - she's from the original universe where she's an only child and the age that Wyatt would've been, which is why I believe that in the canon universe, her name is Wyatt Matthew, another reason why her name doesn't have to be Melinda.

BUT for me all of that is true IF that flash-forward is real. It's just too sappy for each sister to end up with three kids, and there's no way I can believe that Leo could tolerate Piper long enough to stick around long enough to see their grandchildren. I hope he'd finally grow some balls and take his sons and walk out on his shrew of a wife. It's why I'll always truly believe that all of "Forever Crap", I mean "Forever Piper", I mean "Forever Charmed" is just Piper's delusion as she dies after the explosion in "Kill Billie", Vol 2 along with Paige and Phoebe, so the boys are raised by Leo (who gets his wings back) and Victor. And that's the REAL reason why Wyatt doesn't turn evil - he's not raised by Piper!

BUT that's what I believe - what some people call my head-canon. Each fan is allowed their own head canon and allowed their own opinion.

I know those who wanted The Charmed Sons spin-off couldn't stand the idea of a girl upstaging Wyatt and Chris, so they had to use every rationalization in the book to come up with a reason why there's no way the one they call "Mystery Girl" can possibly be Piper's daughter, and they've used those rationalizations so often they actually believe them.

Those who never thought the spin-off would happen look at it otherwise, thinking that there's no way she can possibly be anyone but Piper's daughter.

But none of us are wrong, none of us are right - we each just have our own opinion, because based on what was shown we very simply do not know.

So as Melindahalliwell put it so well, everyone has their own opinions which hopefully can be said without any arguments fuelling.

That's how members leave and boards die.

Please. Let's not let that happen to the Cafe.

[Deleted]

When I first watched the series finale I assumed it was Phoebe's daughter because of the Avatar flash forward vision where it showed her at school with Wyatt & Chris. But I do think she was intended to be Piper's daughter.

[Deleted]

We know all the boys - Wyatt, Chris, Little Henry and Matthew

Matthew?  Who in the dead gods of Krypton is "Matthew"?

Most fans think that like the comics, Piper named her daughter Melinda. But that's not what she was going to call Wyatt if he was the girl he should've been. That's why as far as I'm concerned, she'll always be Prudence Melinda Halliwell-Wyatt.

You can call her Princess Consuela Bananarama, for all it counts.  The fact remains that Mystery Girl has no canon name.  Sorry folks, blame Brad Kern, not me. 

I know the budget for S8 was tight, but how much would paying that child actor to address Piper and Leo as "Mommy" and "Daddy" have set them back?

But I do think she was intended to be Piper's daughter.

I refer you to the TV Tropes article, a link to which I posted above.

[West]

I own copies of charmed scripts I bought from ebay years ago for a few charmed episodes. I own a copy of Forever Charmed, if I ever find it, I'll post it here.

But it should finally end this debate once and for all.

Not sure how I can post the script pages through here. Is there an upload feature for stuff?

Again I dont have time anytime soon.

[Esmeralda]

Sept 11, 2015 23:53:40 GMT -5 @blacklighter said:

When I first watched the series finale I assumed it was Phoebe's daughter because of the Avatar flash forward vision where it showed her at school with Wyatt & Chris. But I do think she was intended to be Piper's daughter.

As pointed out earlier that Avatar one was of a utopian future that no longer exists, but I can see why you might think that.

[Esmeralda]

Sept 12, 2015 6:06:40 GMT -5 West said:

I own copies of charmed scripts I bought from ebay years ago for a few charmed episodes. I own a copy of Forever Charmed, if I ever find it, I'll post it here.

But it should finally end this debate once and for all.

Not sure how I can post the script pages through here. Is there an upload feature for stuff?

Again I dont have time anytime soon.

Good idea, but not worth your effort. Just because it's in the script doesn't make it canon. Only what is actually aired is canon, so the fact that she's obviously Piper's daughter is canon; the idea that her name might be Melinda is fanon, even if that's what it says in the script. That's what the actress who played the daughter said her script said, but that still doesn't make it canon.