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Post by whitelightertony on Feb 9, 2008 15:39:17 GMT -5
I never said they were deities. But they have apparently been given power (perhaps by the Angels of Destiny?) to strip magical creatures of their powers if they believe a creature needs to be punished.
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pubesy
Witch
"If I could dream at all, it would be about you. And I'm not ashamed of it." - Edward Cullen
Posts: 1,171
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Post by pubesy on Feb 10, 2008 6:26:29 GMT -5
i thought the elders were in the same level of the good guys heirachy as the angel of destiny. the season 4 finale said something about being sent by someone. i always assumed it was the elders
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ljones
Whitelighter
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Post by ljones on Feb 10, 2008 14:01:50 GMT -5
Why would a bunch of guardian angels, many who were former humans, have such power over all magical beings? That makes no sense whatsoever. What was Burge and Kern thinking?
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Post by whitelightertony on Feb 10, 2008 17:58:19 GMT -5
The Angels of Destiny are above the Elders in the hierarchy.
I think it was only the four members of the Tribunal who could strip magical powers - - not the Elders in general.
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pubesy
Witch
"If I could dream at all, it would be about you. And I'm not ashamed of it." - Edward Cullen
Posts: 1,171
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Post by pubesy on Feb 10, 2008 21:19:23 GMT -5
maybe there are different levels of elders. ie. there are not just whitelighters and elders and thats it.
maybe there is no highest power. maybe the highest power is a person's choice.
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ljones
Whitelighter
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Post by ljones on Feb 10, 2008 21:44:37 GMT -5
They're just a bunch of demons and whitelighters. Why would Kern allow them to have authority over witches and other magical beings?
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pubesy
Witch
"If I could dream at all, it would be about you. And I'm not ashamed of it." - Edward Cullen
Posts: 1,171
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Post by pubesy on Feb 11, 2008 20:51:25 GMT -5
well someone had to have authority over the charmed ones. they were never considered to be without guidance from the elders.
it had always been inferred that someone or something elder-like had authority over the charmed ones- especially in seasons 1-4. and good and evil working together was supposed to be the greatest power of all, so the tribunal kind of makes sense if you look at it that way.
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ljones
Whitelighter
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Post by ljones on Feb 11, 2008 22:59:32 GMT -5
Why was it important that someone have authority over the Charmed Ones? What are they? Children? Do real life Wiccans answer to some formal authority? If not, why did Burge and Kern believe that it was necessary that the Charmed Ones did?
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pubesy
Witch
"If I could dream at all, it would be about you. And I'm not ashamed of it." - Edward Cullen
Posts: 1,171
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Post by pubesy on Feb 12, 2008 2:07:11 GMT -5
yes, it was important that there was an authority figure over the charmed ones.
it had been written into the storyline from the very first season. everyone in like has a figure of authority, whether it be a boss, parents, a code of conduct, or a diety. the charmed ones were no different.
wiccans do have a level of authority, the wiccan reide. to work with nature, and harm none or it will return threefold. (i am no expert on any form of religion, so i am sure you will understand if i am not 100% accurate here)
anyway, sure the charmed ones were "witches" but they were never wiccans. the show always followed a Christian, good versus bad philosophy. there is no good and evil in wicca. so to follow this Christian format there needed to be a "supreme good authority figure" (elders, angel of destiny, other beings which were never made clear) and a "supreme evil authority figure" (the source)
to me thats kind of why the show lost its appeal. how can you be on speaking terms, yet feel resentment towards a supreme good, yet destroy the source of all evil, so there is no "really bad, evil being"
it was better when these figures were ambiguous, and you did not know much about them.
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Hansemand
Elder
He's looking at you kid.
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Post by Hansemand on Feb 12, 2008 19:53:58 GMT -5
Doesnt she gain the empath ability in either end of season 5 or beginning of season 6 cause doesnt she use it in Valhalley of the Dolls?? But yeah i agree it was a good storyline, i dont really know what happened to it! Yes, she gets her empath abilities in Season 5. In Valhalley of the Dolls, she shows for the first time that she can use it to reflect powers, when Piper tries to attack her. Phoebe taps into Pipers emotions and thereby reflects Pipers own powers back to her again, when she tries to blow Phoebe out of the way, Piper did not see that one coming. How to describe Phoebe's empath powers the best way: A small upgrade of Star Trek TNG's Deanna Troi and her empath abilities. Deanna was able to sense emotions, because she was half Betazoid and half human (human father, Betazoid mother). |
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ljones
Whitelighter
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Post by ljones on Feb 12, 2008 20:31:01 GMT -5
Unfortunately, you're right about the Halliwells remaining Christians. No wonder I found their characters to be disappointing. WHY?  |
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pubesy
Witch
"If I could dream at all, it would be about you. And I'm not ashamed of it." - Edward Cullen
Posts: 1,171
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Post by pubesy on Feb 13, 2008 6:17:14 GMT -5
yes, it was important that there was an authority figure over the charmed ones.
WHY? because a) it had been written into the storyline from the very start of the show. b) the love and the struggle for piper and leo would never have happened. leo may not have even bee in the show. c) in the earlier seasons leo used to orb up to the elders when a demon attack could not be explained, d) the elders originally gave the show it's morality. e) EVERYONE in life has a figure of authority. what makes the charmed ones any different? enough reasons? you may not agree with them, but thats the way the show was written.
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ljones
Whitelighter
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Post by ljones on Feb 13, 2008 20:36:32 GMT -5
That's your reason? Because the whitelighters and the Elders had been written into the show? Are you trying to say that we, the viewers, had no right to question this? Or that the writers could have develop the story in which the Halliwells STOPPED allowing the Elders to dictate their moral compass - which they had done briefly in late Season 7? The Elders gave the show its morality? C'mon! Guardian angels or not, the Elders had NO RIGHT to dictate the morality of the Charmed Ones or any other witch. It is up to the individual to determine his or her own moral compass. To have the Elders dictate their moral compass is to rob the Halliwells and all other witches of whatever free will they had. Besides the Elders were supposed to be the leaders of whitelighters - who are nothing more than guardian angels. Guardian angels cannot guide charges without the latter's consent. Even Kern and his writers came to this conclusion when the Halliwells told the Elders to take a walk in late Season 7. I don't believe in blindly following the dictates of some authority figure. |
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pubesy
Witch
"If I could dream at all, it would be about you. And I'm not ashamed of it." - Edward Cullen
Posts: 1,171
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Post by pubesy on Feb 13, 2008 21:28:48 GMT -5
yes, it's one of many reasons. believe it or not, charmed was a TV show. it was created by writers and acted by actors. for the whole Christian good v evil plot to work the show needed a "god" and a "devil" persay. they couldn't actually call these forces "god" and "devil" because
a) God and Devil are Christian terms. using them would mean that the show was a Christian show, Christians would get upset because they believe witchcraft is evil.
b) Everyone knows that witches don't believe in god and the devil.
hence the terms elders and the source were coined.
if you remember waaaaaaay back in seasons 1-3, the charmed ones knew NOTHING about the source or the elders. they didn't know who they were, what they looked like, what powers they had. all they knew about the elders was what leo told them, and he didn't say much. it was in seasons 5-8, that the source had been vanquished and the elders constantly came down for a "visit" that the elders lost their touch. they lost their mystery. they were not seen as a mysterious force of good. they were seen as bumbling idiots who did not know how to protect themselves and relied on the charmed ones, instead of the other way around.
i am not saying that you have no right to question this. you should question it. i have all the time whilst watching the show. but i have finally come to accept that the elders DID play an important role. they guided the girls when they knew nothing about the craft. the sent down leo. they helped the girls with finding demon info.
the elders never DICTATED the girls morality. right from the very beginning the girls argued with the advice the elders gave leo to give to them. the elders would suggest one way to vanquish a demon, and the charmed one would do it a different way. the girls were CONSTANTLY questioning the elders. the charmed ones had PLENTY of free will.
the elders, however helped the viewers see the morality of the episode. leo would always come back from the elders and give the girls a pep talk, or link the demon to an act in everyday life. or find new info about a demon, or whatever.
neither do i!
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Post by whitelightertony on Feb 15, 2008 1:20:58 GMT -5
Another thought on The Tribunal: perhaps the Angels of Destiny consented that the four Tribunal members would be the only ones who could punish magical creatures by stripping their powers (sort of as a way for the magical community to "self-police" itself), but it had to be by a majority vote.
And the Angels of Destiny could overrule The Tribunal's decision, if they saw fit.
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ljones
Whitelighter
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Post by ljones on Feb 15, 2008 2:07:08 GMT -5
Look at this. Do we really have to buy this belief that all witches and other magical practitioners HAVE to have their lives dictated by a bunch of whitelighers or angels . . . and demons? None of them are deities. And even individuals have the right to choose whether we believe in a deity or not.
Yes they did. Through the Book of Shadows. Hence that "personal gain rule", which doesn't even exist with real Wiccans. Or the fact that Leo tends to show and tell them that the Elders had an assignment for them. And despite their bitching, the Halliwells tend to allow the Elders dictate their actions.
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pubesy
Witch
"If I could dream at all, it would be about you. And I'm not ashamed of it." - Edward Cullen
Posts: 1,171
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Post by pubesy on Feb 15, 2008 8:12:50 GMT -5
the charmed ones were never real wiccans anyway, so there is no point comparing them to the wiccan religion. sure, there may be no "book" to follow....(ie bible, koran, teachings of buddha etc) but don't think for a second there are no "rules" in wicca. theres the threefold law, for example. and there are dieties in wicca. they just dont rule over. wiccans do blessings and ceremonies for their dieties as well.
Leo tends to show and tell?
half the time the girls have already figured out what is going on and have already formed a plan of action or vanquished the demon anyway.
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ljones
Whitelighter
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Post by ljones on Feb 15, 2008 11:55:56 GMT -5
the charmed ones were never real wiccans anyway, so there is no point comparing them to the wiccan religion. sure, there may be no "book" to follow....(ie bible, koran, teachings of buddha etc) but don't think for a second there are no "rules" in wicca. theres the threefold law, for example. and there are dieties in wicca. they just dont rule over. wiccans do blessings and ceremonies for their dieties as well. Leo tends to show and tell? half the time the girls have already figured out what is going on and have already formed a plan of action or vanquished the demon anyway. And half the time they took orders from the Elders via Leo. And by the way, who cares whether or not the Halliwells were Wiccan? That does not mean that they had no choice but to accept the Elders' authority. If they had the right to tell the Elders to get lost in S7 (which they did), they had the right to do so any time during the series' run. |
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Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?"
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Post by Esmeralda on Feb 15, 2008 13:27:21 GMT -5
Yeah, she got it back--that's how she was able to see the Avatar's version of Utopia and wanted to switch powers with Piper so she could see it, too. She also used it to see her and Dex married. She definitely didn't learn her lesson--all of her premonitons once she got them back were extraordinarily self-centered and selfish, rather than the way they were supposed to be used--finding innocents who needed their help.
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ljones
Whitelighter
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Post by ljones on Feb 16, 2008 0:42:12 GMT -5
I never had any problems with Phoebe using her premonitions for learning about her future love life, etc. I mean . . . they are her problems. Who are the whitelighters to dictate how she uses them? I would have a problem if Phoebe had used her premontions or any other power to deliberately harm someone.
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