Phoebe's empath abilities

[pubesy]

if phoebe used her power of premonition "any way she wanted" she would be living in a mansion in the bahamas far away from prue as she would have read the lottery numbers.

there would be no charmed.

[ljones]

pubesy said:

if phoebe used her power of premonition "any way she wanted" she would be living in a mansion in the bahamas far away from prue as she would have read the lottery numbers.

there would be no charmed.

And that's a problem?

[whitelightertony]

Look at this. Do we really have to buy this belief that all witches and other magical practitioners HAVE to have their lives dictated by a bunch of whitelighers or angels . . . and demons? None of them are deities. And even individuals have the right to choose whether we believe in a deity or not.

All I'm saying is that it was a matter of power. The Tribunal had the power to strip creatures of their magic. That authority couldn't be overruled by anyone except, most likely, the Angels of Destiny.

Yes they did. Through the Book of Shadows. Hence that "personal gain rule", which doesn't even exist with real Wiccans. Or the fact that Leo tends to show and tell them that the Elders had an assignment for them. And despite their bitching, the Halliwells tend to allow the Elders dictate their actions.

I always got the impression that consequences stemming from "personal gain" weren't The Tribunal or Elders doling out punishments/lessons, but instead, were karmic events that automatically happened based on the magic practitioner's intent.

[pubesy]

I always got the impression that consequences stemming from "personal gain" weren't The Tribunal or Elders doling out punishments/lessons, but instead, were karmic events that automatically happened based on the magic practitioner's intent.

thats the impression i got as well, and most times the charmed ones had the same ideas as the elders or followed the elders suggestions because they WANTED to not because they HAD to

[ljones]

pubesy said:

I always got the impression that consequences stemming from "personal gain" weren't The Tribunal or Elders doling out punishments/lessons, but instead, were karmic events that automatically happened based on the magic practitioner's intent.

thats the impression i got as well, and most times the charmed ones had the same ideas as the elders or followed the elders suggestions because they WANTED to not because they HAD to

Considering the number of times they had complained about the whitelighter/Elder rules . . . I don't think so.

All I'm saying is that it was a matter of power. The Tribunal had the power to strip creatures of their magic. That authority couldn't be overruled by anyone except, most likely, the Angels of Destiny.

Just because they had the power to do so, does not mean they also had the right. I don't believe that having power gives you the right to exercise your will upon others.

[pubesy]

;)tell that to all the world leaders.

[ShantaD]

I don't understand the problem with the Elders or the Tribunal having authority and setting rules of conduct and responsibility. So what if the show didn't go into the details about where they got their authority millennia ago? That isn't the story the show is telling.

We all live under laws and rules. If you're found not to follow them, you can go to jail, be fined, lose your driver's license, be expelled from school etc. It's no different in the Charmed universe. There are rules governing the use of magic, break them and there are consequences. If witches were allowed to use magic for personal gain, it would be at the expense of ordinary powerless mortals who lacked that enormous advantage. There is wisdom in the Elder's rules.

Without a governing body and rules and laws, powerhungry, violent psychos would terriorize innocent people who just want to live in peace and raise their families. Authority and rules are not a bad thing, they are protection for most people.

[ljones]

I don't understand the problem with the Elders or the Tribunal having authority and setting rules of conduct and responsibility. So what if the show didn't go into the details about where they got their authority millennia ago? That isn't the story the show is telling.

We all live under laws and rules. If you're found not to follow them, you can go to jail, be fined, lose your driver's license, be expelled from school etc. It's no different in the Charmed universe. There are rules governing the use of magic, break them and there are consequences. If witches were allowed to use magic for personal gain, it would be at the expense of ordinary powerless mortals who lacked that enormous advantage. There is wisdom in the Elder's rules.

We don't always have to follow every rule. Nor do we always have to bound ourselves to someone else's authority. If that authority figure's rules make no sense to you, I believe you have every right to question that authority figure and refuse to follow them.

The Charmed Ones have questioned the Elders' rules on so many occasions over the years. If they harbored that low opinion of them, they should have told the Elders to take a walk, years before S7.

[whitelightertony]

Considering the number of times they had complained about the whitelighter/Elder rules . . . I don't think so.

They may have blamed the Elders and whitelighters for consequences when the Charmed Ones broke the rules, but that doesn't mean the Elders/whitelighters were the ones actually determining and handing out the punishments. As I said, it could have been karmic events set in motion by the Charmed Ones' greed and selfishness...and the Charmed Ones simply chose to blame the Elders.

Just because they had the power to do so, does not mean they also had the right. I don't believe that having power gives you the right to exercise your will upon others.

I never said they had the "right." Only that they have the authority. Doesn't mean I agree with it.

[pubesy]

ljones said:

I don't understand the problem with the Elders or the Tribunal having authority and setting rules of conduct and responsibility. So what if the show didn't go into the details about where they got their authority millennia ago? That isn't the story the show is telling.

We all live under laws and rules. If you're found not to follow them, you can go to jail, be fined, lose your driver's license, be expelled from school etc. It's no different in the Charmed universe. There are rules governing the use of magic, break them and there are consequences. If witches were allowed to use magic for personal gain, it would be at the expense of ordinary powerless mortals who lacked that enormous advantage. There is wisdom in the Elder's rules.

We don't always have to follow every rule. Nor do we always have to bound ourselves to someone else's authority. If that authority figure's rules make no sense to you, I believe you have every right to question that authority figure and refuse to follow them.

The Charmed Ones have questioned the Elders' rules on so many occasions over the years. If they harbored that low opinion of them, they should have told the Elders to take a walk, years before S7.

How can we as citizens tell the government to piss off and "take a walk" if we dont agree with a rule. take rules for illegal street racing, for example, some people think its their right to drive their car at high speeds on public roads at night. and that the police should not be able to impound their cars if they are caught. but the law is there for a reason......to save lives. and you as a citizen must follow the law or suffer the consequences.

its the same as the charmed ones.

[ljones]

How can we as citizens tell the government to piss off and "take a walk" if we dont agree with a rule.

We can. And we have done it. We're supposed to be intelligent beings, after all. If we can honestly see that a rule doesn't make sense or hampers the personal rights of an individual, I believe we have the right to tell the government to piss off. It's called exercising one's intellect and rights as an individual.

its the same as the charmed ones.

How does BLINDLY adhering to the authority of the Elders supposed to make people safe?

What exactly do you want me to do? Acknowledge that it has to be one way or the other? Do you want me to acknowledge that a person should blindly follow authority figures or blindly ignore the rules?

Life doesn't work that way. Surely you know this. It all depends upon the situation. There are some rules that, indeed, protect the safety of others. But that doesn't mean that all rules and laws have to be blindly obeyed. That certainly doesn't mean that the Charmed Ones have to blindly obey the Elders. The Elders are supposed to be the leaders of guardian angels. Guardian angels SHOULD NOT have any authority over mortals. They can only guide mortals . . . with the latter's consent. If the latter doesn't give any consent or tell that guardian angel to get lost . . . then that angel or whitelighter should.


If Wiccans in real life managed to create redes or codes of behavior in how they conduct a spell, why did Constance Burge think it was necessary to dump whitelighters and Elders on the show? She didn't think that witches in general could dictate their own behavior? Mind you, there would probably be witches who cross the line, just as the Halliwells have. But they would have eventually paid the consequences of their actions without the Elders or the Tribunal treating them as children under their control.

[pubesy]

ljones said:

How does BLINDLY adhering to the authority of the Elders supposed to make people safe?

it doesn't.

What exactly do you want me to do? Acknowledge that it has to be one way or the other? Do you want me to acknowledge that a person should blindly follow authority figures or blindly ignore the rules?

no.

Life doesn't work that way. Surely you know this. It all depends upon the situation. There are some rules that, indeed, protect the safety of others. But that doesn't mean that all rules and laws have to be blindly obeyed.

of course i know that.

That certainly doesn't mean that the Charmed Ones have to blindly obey the Elders. The Elders are supposed to be the leaders of guardian angels.

they don't blindly obey the elders. the elders are not just the leaders of guardian angels, they are also highly respected by the magical community. and they form half of the tribunal. the tribunal is the magical "police"

wiccans do have rules. and they have gods and goddess. they also have karmic concequences for whatever they release into the word.

[whitelightertony]

How can we as citizens tell the government to piss off and "take a walk" if we dont agree with a rule. take rules for illegal street racing, for example, some people think its their right to drive their car at high speeds on public roads at night. and that the police should not be able to impound their cars if they are caught. but the law is there for a reason......to save lives. and you as a citizen must follow the law or suffer the consequences.

This isn't the best example...illegal street racing causes harm to others (at the very least, puts others in danger).

On the other hand, take something like same-sex marriage: gay marriages are illegal in most states, but would they really be causing harm to anyone?

Just because something is included under the law doesn't make it right.

[pubesy]

it probably wasn't the best example, i agree

i am not saying all laws are right. neither am i saying that all laws set by the elders/tribunal are fair either..... for example, leo and pipers forbidden relationship. but their rules on the consequences of personal gain are fair, as just because you have power, does not mean you should use it to suit your own needs.

[ljones]

pubesy said:

it probably wasn't the best example, i agree

i am not saying all laws are right. neither am i saying that all laws set by the elders/tribunal are fair either..... for example, leo and pipers forbidden relationship. but their rules on the consequences of personal gain are fair, as just because you have power, does not mean you should use it to suit your own needs.

There is nothing wrong with using one's powers for personal gain . . . as long as it is not used to deliberately harm others. It's a stupid rule that the Halliwells should have ignored. In fact, it is a stupid rule that Constance Burge should not have introduced in the first place. I find it laughable that the show made such a big deal over witches using magic for personal gain. Yet, Burge completely ignored two of the actual laws for Wiccans - mainly using spells and magic on others without the latter's consent . . . and using magic to deliberately harm others. Not only did the Halliwells abused their powers for the last two, but the show's writers NEVER bothered to point out that they were wrong to do so.

[pubesy]

its ok to use powers for personal gain? its ok?

are you sure?

so it would be ok for phoebe to guess the lottery numbers correctly every week?
it would be ok piper to freeze time every day so she could make sure p3 was perfect, or that all her housework was done. or she could blow up a statue on he street because "she didn't like it?
it would be ok for paige to orb herself and her friends around the world everyday because she felt like it?

does that mean it would be OK to create beings to save innocents for them, so they would not have to anymore?

think about what you are saying.......

[ShantaD]

I find the rule about not using magic for personal gain to be absolutely correct. It would be immoral and unethical. Not only could Phoebe win the lottery each week, witches could use their powers to advance their careers, their wealth, their love lives. They could achieve immeasurable power and wealth with ease. They could change the past, the present or the future to suit their needs. It's absurd to think misusing magic this way should be acceptable.

There are rules against insider trading, employees winning contests by their employers, buying elections, bribing public officials, forgery, making money etc all in the name of fairness and ethics. Why should witches be except from that same standard just because they use their powers in secret?

Also many, maybe most, uses of magic for personal gain would probably be ruled illegal even under existing laws.

[ljones]

So, how do you feel about using magic against someone without their consent? Or using magic to deliberately harm someone? There are no such rules about magic in CHARMED, yet real life Wiccans actually address them. Why did Burge include that ridiculous "personal gain" rule, yet failed to address those two issues that are actually part of the Wiccan Rede?

By the way, did you know there was such a thing as a Prosperity Spell amongst Wiccans?

[pubesy]

a rule against using magic on others should have ben introduced, sure i agree, but the personal gain rule is JUST as important.

i'm sure there is a prosperity spell. but please, please, please, please dont compare the chamed ones to wiccans. they are completely different.

for one thing, wiccans dont have magic powers spurting from their hands, freeze time, orb, use telapathy on an everyday basis, make things explode, etc.
they also dont kill demons.

[Esmeralda]

From what I know about Wicca (which has mainly been through fiction, since I'm Christian), the sisters most definitely weren't Wiccans; they were a combination of Wiccan, Christian, Buddhist and a bunch of others--whatever happened to fit the particular plot. (religious-wise, I definitely think they were Christian despite Grams being a Wiccan High Priestess, mainly because it's obvious that the writers/producers are and don't know much about the other religions). I would've preferred for a show like this if they *had* been true Wiccans, but I don't think it would've made the air--network bigwigs never would've allowed it.

If they *had* been true Wiccans, maybe they would've followed something like this, which I saw at another site:

The Wiccan Rede (Long form)
It is also known as The Rede of the Wiccae and the Witches' Creed
Generally credited to Doreen Valiente

"Hear now the word of the Witches, the secrets we hid in the night,
When dark was our destiny's pathway, That now we bring forth in the light.

Mysterious Water and Fire, The Earth and the wide-ranging Air,
By hidden Quintessence we know Them, and we will keep silent and dare.

The birth and rebirth of all Nature, the passing of Winter and Spring,
We share with the life Universal, rejoice in the Magical Ring

Four times in the year the Great Sabbat returns, and the Witches are seen,
At Lammas and Candelas dancing, on May Eve and old Halloween

When daytime and nighttime are equal, when sun is at greatest and least,
The four lesser Sabbats are summoned, again Witches gather in feast.

Thirteen silver moons in a year are, thirteen is the Covens array,
Thirteen times at Esbat make merry, for each golden year and a day.

The power has passed down the ages, each time between woman and man
Each century unto the other, ere times and the ages began.

When drawn is the Magickal circle, by sword or athame of power,
Its compass between two worlds lies, in the land of shades of that hour.

Our world has no right to know it, and the world beyond will tell naught,
The oldest of Gods are invoked there, the great work of Magic is wrought.

For two are the mystical pillars, that stand at the gate of the shrine,
And two are the powers of Nature, the forms and the forces divine.

And do what thou wilt be the challenge, so be it in love that harms none,
For this is the only commandment, By Magick of old be it done.

Eight words the Witches Rede fulfill:
If it Harms none, Do what Thou Will!"