Phoebe's empath abilities

[ljones]

Here is some interesting reading material:

manawydan.net/thedemonsjumble/data/media/21/harmed01_the-rede.jpg

[whitelightertony]

so it would be ok for phoebe to guess the lottery numbers correctly every week?

No, it wouldn't. And in "Dead Man Dating," we saw exactly what would happen each time Phoebe abused magic in such a way.

it would be ok piper to freeze time every day so she could make sure p3 was perfect, or that all her housework was done.

I don't see what's so wrong with that. Piper wouldn't be hurting anyone by doing any of those things. Hell, we know she freezes Leo in bed for her own sexual pleasure...should Piper's powers be stripped because of that?

or she could blow up a statue on he street because "she didn't like it?

Not if it belongs to someone else. If Piper uses her power of combustion to destroy someone's property without just cause, then there would probably be some sort of karmic consequence for it.

it would be ok for paige to orb herself and her friends around the world everyday because she felt like it?

Why not? How does Paige teleporting herself across continents harm anyone else? The show has pretty much established that Paige uses her orbing power at her own discretion, ever since she mastered it.

[pubesy]

rhetorical questions were used from those above posts.

no it wouldnt be ok for piper to freeze time so she could do menial nasks like housework or fix p3. what happened if a person accidentally walked in? and how is that fair to all the other clubs in the region?

and it wouldnt be fair for paige to orb around the world with friends....magical exposure?

[whitelightertony]

no it wouldnt be ok for piper to freeze time so she could do menial nasks like housework or fix p3. what happened if a person accidentally walked in? and how is that fair to all the other clubs in the region?

I'm not quite sure how freezing time would help Piper with doing housework. But...

Anytime Piper freezes a room, she risks someone else walking in from another room. So should she never use her power?

and it wouldnt be fair for paige to orb around the world with friends....magical exposure?

It's been implied that Paige (or Leo, or other whitelighters) target the particular spatial area where they intend to orb to. I doubt Paige would recklessly take the risk of orbing into the middle of a crowded mall.

[ljones]

No, it wouldn't. And in "Dead Man Dating," we saw exactly what would happen each time Phoebe abused magic in such a way.

The reason why I viewed Phoebe's use of magic to win at the lottery was not because she used it for personal gain. I didn't like the fact that she would have been harming the real winner by robbing him or her.

[~B@MeLiSsA30@B~]

That makes a lot of sense.

[pubesy]

I'm not quite sure how freezing time would help Piper with doing housework.

there would be, in theory more hours in the day for her to do other things, as she has frozen time.

Anytime Piper freezes a room, she risks someone else walking in from another room. So should she never use her power?

but is the risk justified? freezing a demon to protect an innocent...yes. freezing a person because you "feel like it"... no.

It's been implied that Paige (or Leo, or other whitelighters) target the particular spatial area where they intend to orb to. I doubt Paige would recklessly take the risk of orbing into the middle of a crowded mall.

i wasn't so much worried about that.....but how would she explain to her friends how she orbd without exposing magic?

[whitelightertony]

there would be, in theory more hours in the day for her to do other things, as she has frozen time.

Piper doesn't literally freeze the flow of time on Earth; she freezes matter through particle immobilization. The only ones who've been shown to stop time completely are the Angels of Destiny and the Avatars.

but is the risk justified? freezing a demon to protect an innocent...yes. freezing a person because you "feel like it"... no.

So what about when Piper froze the security camera in "A Paige From the Past"? Or when she was pregnant and froze the woman who'd been about to touch her belly?

There has always been some motivation behind Piper freezing someone or something. So is your problem that Piper is supposedly being selfish by freezing things, or that she's risking exposure?

i wasn't so much worried about that.....but how would she explain to her friends how she orbd without exposing magic?

I thought your earlier comment about Paige orbing her friends around was meant to be tongue-in-cheek.

As long as the Halliwells choose to keep magic a secret, I doubt Paige is going to orb her friends around the world. And Paige has conceivably balanced it before...for example, when Phoebe moved to Hong Kong, I'm sure Paige orbed across the Pacific to bring Phoebe back to San Francisco quite a bit. Paige had to have explained her disappearance to people somehow.

[pubesy]

admittedly, WLtony, they were pretty ridiculous extreme examples to use there, i knew that when i posted. thats why i used them.

its more saying that using magic for constant cases of personal gain is not ok. just because you HAVE power, does not mean you should use it at every chance possible.

[whitelightertony]

But what I'm saying is that if using one's magical powers for personal reasons doesn't cause harm to others, then there should be no consequences for it.

[pubesy]

well, i guess it is probably ok as long as it harms no one, even though it still does not sit right... just my thoughts.

but i still dont think large gains should be attained from their power, ie cheating the lottery, or piper freezing a jewelry store and taking, for example

but usually the girls used personal gain, and it did harm another, like turning reporters into rats, etc

its a very fine line.

[ljones]

whitelightertony said:

But what I'm saying is that if using one's magical powers for personal reasons doesn't cause harm to others, then there should be no consequences for it.

I agree.

[whitelightertony]

but i still dont think large gains should be attained from their power, ie cheating the lottery, or piper freezing a jewelry store and taking, for example

Phoebe didn't get to keep her winning lottery ticket. And Piper had to freeze the jewelry store and steal the videotape to prevent exposure.

but usually the girls used personal gain, and it did harm another, like turning reporters into rats, etc

I thought Piper turned the reporters back into humans?

[pubesy]

Phoebe didn't get to keep her winning lottery ticket. And Piper had to freeze the jewelry store and steal the videotape to prevent exposure.

i know that. and piper's example was merely that, it had nothing to do with any episode of charmed

I thought Piper turned the reporters back into humans?

yes, she did, but she should not have turned them into rats in the first place.

[ShantaD]

It's a very fine line which the show crossed back and forth over. There was lots of lip service paid to not using magic for personal gain which was then ignored whenever convenient.

For instance, I had no problem with Paige orbing Phoebe back and forth from Hong Kong. It allowed Phoebe to live her own life (which she was completely entitled to do), while being there for her sisters when they needed her in their Charmed duties.

However Leo orbing Piper and the boys to Europe for a vacation crossed way over the personal gain line. Not only did it save them the enormous cost of traveling, unless you enter a country from a valid entry point with a valid passport, you are breaking the law. So this instance of orbing around I did find unethical. Legally, financially and timewise there was considerable personal gain.

Yet in another episode, Paige orbs ice cream out of the fridge and Piper warns about personal gain. As long as she was orbing it from her own freezer and not the local supermarket, I don't see the personal gain in it. The only person she is hurting is herself, since she'll end up weighing 400 pounds if she gets into this habit.

The show veered back and forth with no consistency.

[pubesy]

correct. and wheres the fun in going to paris if you dont go on a plane!

[whitelightertony]

However Leo orbing Piper and the boys to Europe for a vacation crossed way over the personal gain line. Not only did it save them the enormous cost of traveling, unless you enter a country from a valid entry point with a valid passport, you are breaking the law. So this instance of orbing around I did find unethical. Legally, financially and timewise there was considerable personal gain.

I guess I don't see what was so bad (unethical) about this? Piper and Leo weren't preventing anyone else from going to Italy. And it's not like they were abusing Leo's orbing power by randomly popping into Italians' homes to steal stuff.

[ShantaD]

Leo was not made a whitelighter to orb his family around Europe on vacation. He was made a whitelighter and given his powers for a specific purpose. Government employees aren't allowed to give their state cars to their families to drive around on errands and vacations. Most companies have rules against using company equipment for personal use or taking them home for the family to use. It's the same thing. It's the personal use of a power given to him for a much greater purpose. Not to save money and time. And since Piper was always whining about wanting a normal life, the cost and hassle of traveling to Europe with children is part of that.

And it's illegal to pop in and out of countries without going through immigration and customs. I don't see why Piper and the boys should be above the law.

They are also taking money away from businesses associated with travel. Without orbing, they would have had to chose plane or boat like the rest of us. What would happen to the travel industry if people could just orb around?

The bottom line is their powers were not meant to save them thousands of dollars whenever they wish or allow them to break laws.

[whitelightertony]

Leo was not made a whitelighter to orb his family around Europe on vacation. He was made a whitelighter and given his powers for a specific purpose. Government employees aren't allowed to give their state cars to their families to drive around on errands and vacations. Most companies have rules against using company equipment for personal use or taking them home for the family to use. It's the same thing. It's the personal use of a power given to him for a much greater purpose. Not to save money and time. And since Piper was always whining about wanting a normal life, the cost and hassle of traveling to Europe with children is part of that.

Well, by that same analogy, government employees aren't prohibited from having interracial relationships...yet, for some inane reason, the Elders found it necessary to ban interspecies relationships between magical creatures.

Things change. Rules change. At the beginning of the series, Leo indicated that he wasn't allowed to orb the Halliwells anywhere. Obviously, if the Elders hadn't relaxed the restrictions on orbing for whitelighters, they would have stripped Leo of his wings a long time ago.

And it's illegal to pop in and out of countries without going through immigration and customs. I don't see why Piper and the boys should be above the law.

So should Paige be prevented from helping her overseas charges just because she isn't using Northwest Airlines? It's also illegal to incapacitate people or use plastic explosives. Does that mean Piper is breaking the law when she uses temporal stasis or combustion? If Phoebe reads someone's emotions, is that akin to statuatory rape?

I don't find it practical to hold magical creatures to the exact same standards as powerless mortals.

They are also taking money away from businesses associated with travel. Without orbing, they would have had to chose plane or boat like the rest of us. What would happen to the travel industry if people could just orb around?

Well obviously that's not the case, since most people can't orb. If everyone had orbing abilities, it would save people all over the world time and money, and there wouldn't be a need for the commercial travel/airline industries to exist in the first place.

The bottom line is their powers were not meant to save them thousands of dollars whenever they wish or allow them to break laws.

I got the impression that Leo and Piper's family vacation to Italy was a one-time thing.

[ljones]

If Phoebe reads someone's emotions, is that akin to statuatory rape?

Not when she does it accidentally. When she does it deliberately . . . it is.