Reality Bites
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Post by Reality Bites on Apr 14, 2011 14:45:52 GMT -5
Well one could argue that Cole had a greater temptation or lean towards evil since he spent nearly 100 years of his life committing evil acts such as murder, theft, dark magics, and whatever else goes on in the demonic world.
Yes, the sisters are more than capable of committing evil acts, but when compared against Cole there is no real contest. His capacity for evil is greater, but that's the lifestyle he is more accustomed too.
Besides, who would honestly expect a year or so of "good" acts to deter Cole from his old habits completely? Especially when he attempted to give up being evil cold turkey like it was just so easy to switch sides. It's all about self-control... something Cole never really had, which may be why he snapped so hard during season 5.
Cole was just as black and white as the sisters thinking he could go either way whenever he felt like it. And when trying to be good for Phoebe didn't work (late season 3/early season 4/early season 5) and then trying to lure Phoebe to evil (season 5) didn't work, something seemed to snap in him that caused him to go on this obsessive rampage that resulted in his banishment to limbo.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Apr 15, 2011 2:01:24 GMT -5
One could argue that. And someone else could disagree. Which I will. I still believe that just about anyone can take the path of evil, when the right moment in the right situation occurs. It is sooo very easy . . . and I get the feeling that humans basically cannot accept this about themselves. Perhaps that's why it's easier to accept a more black-and-white morality, especially when it comes to fictional characters that are not quite . . . human.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Apr 15, 2011 8:01:38 GMT -5
One could argue that. And someone else could disagree. Which I will. I still believe that just about anyone can take the path of evil, when the right moment in the right situation occurs. It is sooo very easy . . . and I get the feeling that humans basically cannot accept this about themselves. Perhaps that's why it's easier to accept a more black-and-white morality, especially when it comes to fictional characters that are not quite . . . human. You're very correct. Which is why I *LOVE* black-and-white morality in my fantasy shows, which Charmed definitely is, and why I *HATED* it when that got messed up. Making bad decisions, being punished, learning from the lessons. That I loved. Making bad decisions and being rewarded for it. That I hated. Which is why I love Seasons One and Two. |
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Jad
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Post by Jad on Apr 15, 2011 20:12:14 GMT -5
Season one, episode one, Phoebe makes a bad choice by reading the spell that gave them all their powers.
She force the powers and responsibilities on her sisters. She had no clue as to the consequence of reading the spell. She had no right to read that spell with out some kind of investigation.
So, first epdisode and complex moral decisions from the start. Only the characters idiocy kept the moral questions black and white.
From the first episode, I understood that the characters had no moral depth. It did not surprise me that they de-evolved from there. I wouldn't have watched it if they didn't. It's what made the show fun as the main characters were always jumoing fron=m the frying pan into the fire.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Apr 21, 2011 2:16:27 GMT -5
I used to love black-and-white morality in my fantasy sagas. I no longer do. The older I got, the less I liked it. I'm at a point at which I have deep contempt toward black-and-white morality in any kind of story. It just smacks of lazy writing to me.
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Post by joshingabout on Apr 21, 2011 4:55:32 GMT -5
I too prefer the 'shades of gray' approach to shows. Black and White is too boring for me. I like my morals mixed  But that's just me. |
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Apr 21, 2011 7:31:08 GMT -5
Yep, you're absolutely right.
But I find no boredom in black-and-white as long as it's well done. When the main characters act like mortals and do wrong, but then are punished for the wrong and learn from it, that's what I love.
When due to being grey they are allowed to do wrong and are rewarded by it, then I'm disgusted by it, and the last five seasons of this show disgusted me because that's what the three sisters were allowed to do.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Apr 21, 2011 7:33:19 GMT -5
Season one, episode one, Phoebe makes a bad choice by reading the spell that gave them all their powers. She force the powers and responsibilities on her sisters. She had no clue as to the consequence of reading the spell. She had no right to read that spell with out some kind of investigation. So, first epdisode and complex moral decisions from the start. Only the characters idiocy kept the moral questions black and white. From the first episode, I understood that the characters had no moral depth. It did not surprise me that they de-evolved from there. I wouldn't have watched it if they didn't. It's what made the show fun as the main characters were always jumoing fron=m the frying pan into the fire. Why would you call it idiocracy or no moral depth? I would say totally the opposite. It was the latter version of the sisters who had both of those. |
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Jad
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I was going to go with Liberty Jad, aren't you glad I didn't?
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Post by Jad on Apr 22, 2011 1:12:16 GMT -5
The Charmed Ones made bad decisions from the beginning and it only got worse. That was my point.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Sept 10, 2012 20:06:20 GMT -5
In "The Good, the Bad and the Cursed", Victor revealed to Phoebe that he didn't know that Patty was a witch, until after they were married:
He even said this to Leo in the same episode:
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Sept 11, 2012 7:50:01 GMT -5
Season Three was when black-and-white morality went out the door - with the introduction of Cole and the takeover of Kern. One of the reasons why his and Phoebe's storyline is my least-favorite of the original three sisters' main ones.
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Post by ~B@MeLiSsA30@B~ on Oct 16, 2012 12:09:52 GMT -5
Well, when Cole met and finally accepted that he was in love with her. The way she behaved at the time, he was able to be both, and control his demon side. Let his human side take over.
But because his fellow demons wanted him killed because he betrayed them, he was constantly on the run and him and Phoebe couldn't truly be together without fear he would die. So, I can see why she would want him to be human. So they couldn't track him. That's completely understandable when two people wanna be together. But his demon side was a part of him too. That's what made him who he was. What made him appreciate humanity. His love and desire to protect his love "Phoebe."
She had plans on using that potion that made him completely human, but it was never used. Instead, it was sitting in her purse. That lady used the potion on him that made him human. Not Phoebe. I don't blame Phoebe for him becoming human, but I blame her partially for the way she treated him afterwards.
He's used to protecting her, being in the fight, and now she casts him aside while they go battle. Cole really did try to behave like a human being. He tried getting a job, but that didn't fall through with his actions. Phoebe just expected too much out of him at times. Cole is used to being a demon. She should of let him help them more than she did.
But after awhile, Cole started going crazy because he lost a part of himself. He didn't know who he is now, or what he should do. So the evil took advantage of Cole's state of mind, knowing his desires, and Cole unknowingly what would really happen. Cole now became the source of all evil. So, I do believe if a lot of way, it was Phoebe's fault. I think if Cole again became the man Phoebe met, and fell in love with. Being part human, part demon. Cole would not of been in that state of mind, and would not of as easily became the source. He didn't want any part of it. But, as you know, when he was human. He was going crazy without his powers, so it was easy to make him the source.
I don't blame Cole at all. It's never a good feeling when we feel like we lost ourselves, and we want something to feel that void in our hearts. When you fall in love, you fall in love with all of them. And Phoebe picked and choose how she wanted him to be.
I like Phoebe, and I can understand her side too, but even so, she is still to blame at the end for him becoming the source.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Oct 16, 2012 15:45:40 GMT -5
When you say "human side", what exactly are you talking about? Because both humans and demons can be murderous, vindictive, greedy and cold.
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Reality Bites
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When witches don't fight we burn.
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Post by Reality Bites on Oct 17, 2012 4:05:07 GMT -5
When you say "human side", what exactly are you talking about? Because both humans and demons can be murderous, vindictive, greedy and cold. This is true, but can demons be caring, loving, selfless, and nurturing? I think when people refer to Cole's "human side", they are speaking of the human ability to rise above the more sinister aspects of their duality. While humans can be good or evil, demons are portrayed as being wholly evil with no aspect of good. This is the primary argument in the Season 1 episode "Love Hurts" when describing the path of future Whitelighters, and the Season 3 episode "Primose Empath" when the empath priest describes the nature of demons. Cole as a human can still be evil, but he also has a better chance of embracing qualities associated with good because of the empathy humans have the potential to develop naturally. In Charmed, especially, good magical creatures are always good and evil magical creatures are always evil. Only the human characters can switch sides, which is why witches can become warlocks. They are only humans with powers, so they have the duality of being good (a witch) or evil (a warlock). Demons don't convert to good, and Angels don't convert to evil. Whitelighters, being elevated human souls, seem to still possess their duality (as seen with Gideon). When Cole came back in Season 5, he wasn't a demon anymore. His demon side had been vanquished in "Black as Cole" and he was free of the demonic essence of the Source after "Long Live the Queen". Cole was a resurrected human who amassed a ton of potent demonic powers. This is evident when he was stripped of those powers by Paige in the episode "Sympathy for the Demon" and became mortal once again. The evil acts committed by Cole in Season 5 were done by a human who allowed himself to be corrupted by the powers he amassed, which saw him turn back to the behavioral traits of the demonic culture and environment he grew up in. So, being half-human (and later fully human) doesn't mean Cole is good because he is human. I think it means he has the ability to choose between being good or evil, just like any other human in the Charmed world. |
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Post by ~B@MeLiSsA30@B~ on Oct 18, 2012 11:16:22 GMT -5
That is very true, but I'm not talking about other demons or other humans and how they may or may not behave. I'm just talking about Cole's behavior right now.  As for human beings, that is right though. That's why we have prisons because their are people just like that. Even though, I was just talking about Cole. |
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Oct 19, 2012 13:21:00 GMT -5
I have a problem with this explanation. I have a problem with this because I don't believe that demons equal evil and humans equal good. That's crap to me. Other supernatural shows - like "BUFFY" - were not afraid to explore a more complex concept. Unfortunately, for "CHARMED", it was. Mind you, the series has featured supernatural evil beings that managed to fall in love, express wisdom on the folly of seeking revenge and express familial love. If the writers were capable of showing this, why in the hell did they, Burge and Kern insist upon their ridiculously rigid morality? Which is why I now view the series as a collection of kiddies' fairy tales pretending that it is a fantasy television series for adults.
The Halliwells were capable of evil, without having any demonic blood. Leo proved to be capable of evil without any demonic blood. Other characters that are human proved to be capable of evil without demonic blood. The series has shown all of this.
First of all, with or without powers, Cole was always half-demon/half-human. That was his DNA. And a good deal of his bad deeds in Season 5 came from his love of Phoebe and his inability to deal with his loss of her love, not because any "behavioral traits" from a demonic culture. Hell, Piper ended up behaving just as bad, whenever she faced the loss of someone - namely Leo or any of her sisters. Yet, the show's writers and many fans refuse to face this, due to their determination to stick with the "demon=bad; human=good" mindset. When I think of how well written and complex "CHARMED" could have been, it just irritates me, sometimes.
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Reality Bites
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When witches don't fight we burn.
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Post by Reality Bites on Oct 19, 2012 23:23:43 GMT -5
I have a problem with this explanation. I have a problem with this because I don't believe that demons equal evil and humans equal good. That's crap to me. Other supernatural shows - like "BUFFY" - were not afraid to explore a more complex concept. Unfortunately, for "CHARMED", it was. Mind you, the series has featured supernatural evil beings that managed to fall in love, express wisdom on the folly of seeking revenge and express familial love. If the writers were capable of showing this, why in the hell did they, Burge and Kern insist upon their ridiculously rigid morality? Which is why I now view the series as a collection of kiddies' fairy tales pretending that it is a fantasy television series for adults. I think you're misinterpreting Charmed's portrayal of good and evil. Charmed doesn't automatically equate human=good and only good. Charmed has repeatedly shown humans can be good or evil from the very first season all the way up to Season 8. As seen in episodes such as "Dream Sorcerer," "Feats of Clay," "Morality Bites," and "The Devil's Music." You're confusing the fact that it is the SISTERS who were routinely championed as good characters, despite some of their questionable decisions and actions. From your commentary of using the Halliwells as a comparison, you seem more upset with the fact that the sisters are blindly associated with good inspite of their actions than the overall human characters. You're equating the biased or rigid morality the writers applied to the sisters onto the moral code used for the human characters on the show. Honestly, you would be hard-pressed to find an example of a human character outside of the four main stars that aren't called out for their evil actions. It's not that humans are seen with a rigid morality, it's the sisters that have a rigid morality written for them. The Halliwells were capable of evil, without having any demonic blood. Leo proved to be capable of evil without any demonic blood. Other characters that are human proved to be capable of evil without demonic blood. The series has shown all of this. Did you read the entirety of my post? Charmed has routinely shown that demons aren't the only ones who could be evil. I even stated the example of how whitelighters are shown to be capable of being good or evil due to their human origins. First of all, with or without powers, Cole was always half-demon/half-human. That was his DNA. Actually this is not true. Stripping Cole of his demon half, could have very well stripped Cole of the DNA strands that made him half-demon and gave him his demonic powers. As far as the show is concerned, stripping Cole of Belthazor made him human. We can't ignore the laws of how this magical world works. Based on the evidence we are given, without powers Cole was FULLY human. Your disagreement with this outcome doesn't make it null and void if it is a fact within the show. And a good deal of his bad deeds in Season 5 came from his love of Phoebe and his inability to deal with his loss of her love, not because any "behavioral traits" from a demonic culture. And those bad deeds he did for his love of Phoebe as well as the bad deeds he did due to his inability to deal with losing her love were influenced by the attitudes, traits, and ideologies he acquired from living within the demonic culture of the underworld. An example of this can be seen in Season 5's "Witches in Tights": Phoebe wanted to talk to Edward Miller, but Cole, seeing a threat of exposure relied on the tactics we have seen countless other demons use in similar situations such as Inspector Rodriguez ("Love Hurts"), Seekers ("Death Takes a Halliwell"), and Sykes ("Black as Cole"); to avoid exposure he kills the guy. I'd say that's a specific behavior inherited from demonic culture. The same way, killing "narcs" or "rats" is a behavioral trait inherited from gang culture. Yes, some people can rise above their cultural environment, but a lot choose not to in order to rely on the familiar. Which is why Cole's dependency on his demonic powers allowed him to rely on the familiarity of a "demonic" way of life. Hell, Piper ended up behaving just as bad, whenever she faced the loss of someone - namely Leo or any of her sisters. Yet, the show's writers and many fans refuse to face this, due to their determination to stick with the "demon=bad; human=good" mindset. When I think of how well written and complex "CHARMED" could have been, it just irritates me, sometimes. Well, in my posts I have clearly stated that in Charmed humans are not automatically the good antithesis to the demon=bad. As a matter of fact, I think Charmed has an entirely different morality than the one you're arguing it has. From the examples of this post and my previous post I will stand behind the argument that Charmed writers are insistent that; Demons=Predisposed to Evil, but can be Good - Cole
- Drake
- Kira
- Derek's son
- There are others
Humans=Good or Evil/Bad - Maggie Murphy [good]
- Kyle Gwydion [good]
- Whitaker Berman [evil]
- Tony Wong [bad]
- Tom Peters [good/evil/good]
- Mikelle [bad/good]
- There are others
Witches=Good or Evil/Bad - Janna [good]
- Tautha [evil]
- Montana witches [bad]
- There are others
Whitelighters=Predisposed to Good, but can be Bad - Gideon
- Simon
- Leo
- There are others
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Oct 26, 2012 13:57:16 GMT -5
Sorry, but I disagree with all of you. I just do. I've already pointed out that the series has shown humans capable of evil. But not until an episode from the later years was it able to openly accept that humans can be either good or evil.
The series has also shown that demons are capable of love and wisdom. Yet, it refused to completely acknowledge that they are capable of good, due to its insistence that all demons are evil.
I also disagree that stripping Cole of his powers made him completely human. Now, you're stating that powers alone made Cole part demonic or susceptible to evil. If that was the case, why not say the same about the Halliwells? I'll go even further. Why continue to blindly accept the series' one-dimensional view on morality, based upon the characters' species. There is something rather bigoted about the producers and writers' thinking in that regard. It accepts the idea that anyone who is not an "Other" or something not like us is inferior. I know that the series never openly admits it, but that is the message it is sent, whether Kern and his writers realized this or not.
Season Three tried to throw black-and-white morality out of the door. It failed. Labeling Cole as being capable of good, due to possessing human blood is NOT tossing aside black-and-white morality to me.
Why post the scene featuring Cole's murder of Ed Miller? What were you trying to prove? That he's capable of evil? Of course he is. But most of his worst actions in Season 5 still came from his inability to face the lack of Phoebe's love. Why is that hard for you to accept? Because you want to label him as evil, due to his demonic blood, and nothing else?
By the way, can you explain why the sisters failed to determine how he became the Source? Or better yet, why not post the scene in which Phoebe and Paige set Rick Gittridge up to be murdered by demons? Or post scenes featuring Piper's breakdown after Leo became an Elder at the end of Season 5?
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Reality Bites
Familiar
When witches don't fight we burn.
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Post by Reality Bites on Oct 27, 2012 0:18:00 GMT -5
I didn't state that. I clearly state with demonic powers or not, Cole can be good or evil. So the rest of your argument, in conjunction with that belief, is irrelevant to the conversation.
If you read my post, you would have seen what I was trying to prove because it was explicitly stated:
"Phoebe wanted to talk to Edward Miller, but Cole, seeing a threat of exposure relied on the tactics we have seen countless other demons use in similar situations such as Inspector Rodriguez ("Love Hurts"), Seekers ("Death Takes a Halliwell"), and Sykes ("Black as Cole"); to avoid exposure he kills the guy. I'd say that's a specific behavior inherited from demonic culture. The same way, killing "narcs" or "rats" is a behavioral trait inherited from gang culture. Yes, some people can rise above their cultural environment, but a lot choose not to in order to rely on the familiar. Which is why Cole's dependency on his demonic powers allowed him to rely on the familiarity of a "demonic" way of life."
It was to show, not that Cole is capable of evil, but to dispute your claim that his demonic upbringing had no influence on his actions in Season Five. It was to illustrate how Cole resulted to a solution to a problem by relying on methods learned from demonic culture.
No one is disputing this or being un-accepting of this point of view. However, you are arguing that Cole's bad deeds are solely based on his misguided attempts to deal with losing Phoebe's love. All I am doing is stating that his demon upbringing had an impact on his decision making skills, because it was easy for him to lean on methodologies learned from such a harsh and violent environment that was ingrained in him for over a century.
This was even stated in my last post:
"And those bad deeds he did for his love of Phoebe as well as the bad deeds he did due to his inability to deal with losing her love were influenced by the attitudes, traits, and ideologies he acquired from living within the demonic culture of the underworld."
I clearly accept that his actions come from his inability to handle losing Phoebe's love, but I also claim that those decisions were influenced by his experiences gained from his living within a demonic culture for over a century. My argument has nothing to do with his DNA, but his upbringing. Why is that hard for you to accept? Because you want to label him as so morally complex his experiences, attitudes, traits, and ideologies gained from living in a demonic culture have no long lasting influences whatsoever?
Because those topics had nothing to do with the current direction of the discussion. I stated a belief about Cole. You said that I was wrong in my opinions. To defend my opinion, I took evidence from the show to support my position. There was no reason for me to attempt to deflect the current direction of the discussion, when I stand firm in my opinion and know of evidence from the primary source, which supports this opinion in order to showcase that your outlook on Cole ignores particular evidence from the show.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Oct 29, 2012 15:59:33 GMT -5
Using Ed Miller as an example of Cole's inner evil does not work for me. Why? Because the Halliwells and Leo have committed evil for similar reasons. That's what I'm trying to point out. What's the use of using Cole's demonic past or DNA as an example of why he's evil, when the Halliwells and Leo have proven they can be just as evil as him?
What is the point of using Cole's demonic past and DNA, when demons in other episodes have proven capable of falling in love, harboring familial love and giving wise advice regarding the topic of revenge?
What I'm trying to point out is that the series' black-and-white morality just did not work for me. It allowed Constance Burge, Brad Kern and their writers to engage in some truly terrible writing filled with inconsistencies, and one-note characterizations. If only they had rose above such infantile writing, "CHARMED" could have ended up being a truly decent series, instead of an industry joke.
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But that's just me.
