Was It Phoebes Fault That Cole Was The Source?

[Esmeralda]

Saw a new post regarding this at a different site and agree with it totally.

No it was not Phoebe's fault, it was in Cole's nature to be that psychotic. He is part demon after all and that powerful demon half always conflicted with his human half which made him vulnerable to turning evil. Phoebe managed to bring out the human part in Cole where he feels love and most importantly he is loved by someone else. Even when Cole was The Source, his love for Phoebe brought out his human side in reality Cole was the nicest Source on the show because Phoebe helped keep him human.

Phoebe realized her relationship with Cole would lead to more toxic fumes then happiness which is why she left him. Also her good side truly took over once she killed Cole in season 4. Phoebe was always considered the witch who had the darker side and she realized that to save herself and humanity she had to stop using black magic and part of that black magic was Cole.

Phoebe was not at fault for making him like that, he was already like that, but any lunatic takes any situation into extremes and in this case his love/obsession with Phoebe.

[Chrisaholic]

I still think it was the Seer's great plan as the original Source let go off the Hollow. All played in her hands and she'd said so several times. Unwillingly or not, all were just a pawn in a big game.

[Melinda Halliwell]

Jan 1, 2015 8:53:10 GMT -5 Chrisaholic said:

I still think it was the Seer's great plan as the original Source let go off the Hollow. All played in her hands and she'd said so several times. Unwillingly or not, all were just a pawn in a big game.

Absolutley. Cole loved power unfortunately and when he lost his Belthazor side he felt lost and couldn't handle been human and so was more vulnerable to the Hollows and Source's power which he craved almost like a drug.

[Nimue]

Jan 1, 2015 8:53:10 GMT -5 Chrisaholic said:

I still think it was the Seer's great plan as the original Source let go off the Hollow. All played in her hands and she'd said so several times. Unwillingly or not, all were just a pawn in a big game.

I agree. Cole was just desperate to save the sisters, and didn't think about the consequences. However, I do believe that old Phoebe should have told them what was going on, regardless of how it would mess up the future, because that was bad writing. Also, Phoebe shouldn't have stopped Cole from giving his powers to the wizard. I can't quite remember: was Phoebe evil at the time or not? Because that could justify why she stopped Cole, if she was already turned.

[ljones]

I think he would have known... he was around how many years? 200. I'd assume by then he would have understood BOTH the Seer and the Source's intentions. Cole knows the Source better than anyone (except maybe the Seer) so I think he knew what he was getting himself into.

Cole knew the Source better than "anyone"? By "anyone", are you referring to the members of the Halliwell household and Leo? Because I have grave doubts that he was that close to the old Source. A hybrid assassin like him?

And I disagree that he knew what he was getting himself in. I think he had wondered if he was getting himself into a trap. But I believe that his concern for Phoebe and her sisters blinded him from wariness over any trap set by the Seer. And when he realized that the Source's spirit was taking possession of his body, he seemed genuinely surprised and shocked.

No it was not Phoebe's fault, it was in Cole's nature to be that psychotic. He is part demon after all and that powerful demon half always conflicted with his human half which made him vulnerable to turning evil.

What the hell kind of reasoning is this? Why do humans, especially today, continually believe that ridiculous myth that humanity is basically good . . . with the exception of criminals? You know what? Screw it! I was going to continue to contradict the above quoted statement, but I'm just too disgusted to even bother. Jeez!

[Nimue]

Jan 2, 2015 3:46:19 GMT -5 ljones said:

I think he would have known... he was around how many years? 200. I'd assume by then he would have understood BOTH the Seer and the Source's intentions. Cole knows the Source better than anyone (except maybe the Seer) so I think he knew what he was getting himself into.

Cole knew the Source better than "anyone"? By "anyone", are you referring to the members of the Halliwell household and Leo? Because I have grave doubts that he was that close to the old Source. A hybrid assassin like him?

And I disagree that he knew what he was getting himself in. I think he had wondered if he was getting himself into a trap. But I believe that his concern for Phoebe and her sisters blinded him from wariness over any trap set by the Seer. And when he realized that the Source's spirit was taking possession of his body, he seemed genuinely surprised and shocked.

No it was not Phoebe's fault, it was in Cole's nature to be that psychotic. He is part demon after all and that powerful demon half always conflicted with his human half which made him vulnerable to turning evil.

What the hell kind of reasoning is this? Why do humans, especially today, continually believe that ridiculous myth that humanity is basically good . . . with the exception of criminals? You know what? Screw it! I was going to continue to contradict the above quoted statement, but I'm just too disgusted to even bother. Jeez!

I think it has to do with Christianity, and other major, dominate religions which say that demons are evil. It's a very black-and-white way of seeing things that was very good for controlling people during the Middle Ages, and that probably makes people want to aspire to do better things with their lives. But that's not the case for all religions: for some of them, demons are just neutral beings. Also, for the ancient Greeks, demons were actually lucky or unlucky spirits that were attributed to a certain person and defined the rest of their lives (I've studied this in Philosophy).

[ljones]

I think it has to do with Christianity, and other major, dominate religions which say that demons are evil. It's a very black-and-white way of seeing things that was very good for controlling people during the Middle Ages, and that probably makes people want to aspire to do better things with their lives. But that's not the case for all religions: for some of them, demons are just neutral beings. Also, for the ancient Greeks, demons were actually lucky or unlucky spirits that were attributed to a certain person and defined the rest of their lives (I've studied this in Philosophy).

It's rather odd. Considering that this series was supposed to be about three sisters who are not only witches, but consider themselves Wiccans; you'd think the writers would have adhered closer to how Wiccans regard "demons".

[lilchi7212]

I guess you can say it was Phoebe's premonition of him getting hit with that energy ball that was thrown by the source that lead him down the path of him taking in the Hollow. Well what was Cole supposed to do Leo was dying by a darklighter arrow, Piper and Paige's active powers were taking in by the source,and Phoebe was afraid that they wouldn't make it and he couldn't do anything to help but he chose to stay.

[yinsoul]

The poor guy was just screwed. Everything was going downhill fast like Lilchi said- yes it was silly to listen to the Seer, wonderfully nasty creature she was, but there was little choice in the heat of the moment to be honest.
As dumb as the Source was, he did have them pretty dead to rights at that moment, if it wasnt for the Seer plotting against them he would have been running around with their powers soon enough. Well, until the Hollow ate him. And everything else.

[Deleted]

Feb 5, 2015 15:41:36 GMT -5 ljones said:

It's rather odd. Considering that this series was supposed to be about three sisters who are not only witches, but consider themselves Wiccans; you'd think the writers would have adhered closer to how Wiccans regard "demons".

The Charmed Ones are NOT Wiccans. For the MILLIONTH time.

Aug 16, 2015 12:24:16 GMT -5 yinsoul said:

The poor guy was just screwed. Everything was going downhill fast like Lilchi said- yes it was silly to listen to the Seer, wonderfully nasty creature she was, but there was little choice in the heat of the moment to be honest.
As dumb as the Source was, he did have them pretty dead to rights at that moment, if it wasnt for the Seer plotting against them he would have been running around with their powers soon enough. Well, until the Hollow ate him. And everything else.

Yeah, Cole was just trapped into an ugly situation. It probably wasn't the best idea for him to listen to the Seer, but he didn't have many options, especially since he was no longer Belthazor.

[Esmeralda]

Aug 22, 2015 10:05:03 GMT -5 @bettynewbie said:

Feb 5, 2015 15:41:36 GMT -5 ljones said:

It's rather odd. Considering that this series was supposed to be about three sisters who are not only witches, but consider themselves Wiccans; you'd think the writers would have adhered closer to how Wiccans regard "demons".

The Charmed Ones are NOT Wiccans. For the MILLIONTH time.

Aug 16, 2015 12:24:16 GMT -5 yinsoul said:

The poor guy was just screwed. Everything was going downhill fast like Lilchi said- yes it was silly to listen to the Seer, wonderfully nasty creature she was, but there was little choice in the heat of the moment to be honest.
As dumb as the Source was, he did have them pretty dead to rights at that moment, if it wasnt for the Seer plotting against them he would have been running around with their powers soon enough. Well, until the Hollow ate him. And everything else.

Yeah, Cole was just trapped into an ugly situation. It probably wasn't the best idea for him to listen to the Seer, but he didn't have many options, especially since he was no longer Belthazor.

But he was! It was his powers that Phoebe's potion had taken away. That's why it was so easy for him to not tell the sisters anything about now having the title of the Source - he was still and always would be Belthazor much more than he was ever the human Cole.

[Deleted]

(Cole embraces his demonic self completely. He pushes Sikes up and he hits the roof. Belthazor grabs him and pulls his athame out of his belt. They suddenly freeze. Piper and Paige have entered the room. They race over to Phoebe.)

[Cut to downstairs. Emma walks in through the front door and picks up the potion.]

[Cut to the attic. Belthazor and Sikes start to unfreeze. Piper and Paige quickly untie Phoebe. Belthazor pulls Sikes up and stabs him with the athame. Sikes screams and bursts into flames. He disappears. Belthazor turns to the girls.]

Phoebe: Cole? (He walks towards them with the athame.) It's over. You can turn back now. Cole, you can do it. For me, for us.

Paige: Hurry, throw the potion. maybe it'll work on him.

(Piper holds up the potion.)

Phoebe: No, don't. Cole, please, you can do this, you're good.

(Emma runs in and throws the potion at Belthazor. Flames surround him and he screams. The flames disappear and Cole drops to his knees.)

Paige: What happened?

Phoebe: That was the power stripping potion I made to free Cole. (She goes over to him.) Are you okay? (She hugs him. Emma picks up the athame. Phoebe sees her.) No! (She goes over to her.) You got your revenge. You killed the demon you were after. Belthazor's dead, gone forever. Cole's a human being, an innocent.

...

[Scene: Manor. Phoebe's room. Phoebe is waiting around for Cole. After a while, Cole finally walks in.]

Phoebe: Cole. Oh my god, I was so worried.

(She runs over and hugs him.)

Cole: Oh, I'm sorry, but I had to take a walk, and then I lost track of time and I tried to shimmer back here and I realised I, I didn't have my powers anymore.

Phoebe: But that's a good thing. Isn't that what we always wanted?

Cole: I don't know, do we? I mean, I get it that I'm finally off the Source's radar and that I don't have to worry about demons tracking me down all the time but, I-I-I'm grateful for that, don't get me wrong. It's just... (he laughs)

Phoebe: What? Come here.

(They sit on the bed.)

Cole: For all intense purposes I've been a demon for over a hundred years, it's all I've ever know. Or been. What am I supposed to do now? Who am I?

Phoebe: Well, you're still the good man I fell in love with.

Cole: But not the one you wanna marry.

Phoebe: I love you, Cole. And nothing will ever change that. But I'm not ready, not yet. And that's got more to do with me and my issues, than it does you.

Cole: I still don't know where that leaves us, especially now.

Phoebe: Well, just because you're not a demon anymore doesn't mean we can't live in sin.

(They kiss and lay down on the bed.)

From "Black as Cole."

It was the demonic half of Cole, aka. Belthazor, that Phoebe's potion vanquished.  The dialog pretty clearly states it.  It's implied even further in "Charmed and Dangerous" when Cole takes in the Hollow:

[Cut to the underworld. Cole appears in the Source's cave. He looks around.]

Seer: Don't be afraid. (He spins around. The Seer walks in.)

Cole: Who are you? Where am I?

Seer: Back in your once and future life... Belthazor.

Cole: Belthazor? (The Seer moves closer.) Seer.

Seer: Even now I can see the void where your demon half used to exist. It craves to be complete again.

Cole: How'd you know I was still alive?

Seer: I had a vision. One where you and I do great things together.

Cole: I don't work with evil anymore.

Seer: You might reconsider if you hope to save your precious witch. Only you and I can help to beat the Source.

Cole: I'm listening.

Seer: If you take in the Hollow, you can absorb the Source's power when he attacks. Once powerless, they can vanquish him.

(She picks up the Hollow box.)

Cole: And what happens to me after?

Seer: The witches and I will banish the Hollow back to its crypt. You will return to normal.

Cole: How do I know this isn't one of The Source's tricks? Or one of yours for that matter.

Seer: The Source has been corrupted by the Hollow. And is going to destroy us all. He can not be allowed to continue with this path of madness.

Cole: If I do this, what do you see then?

Seer: A future for both sides.

(He walks across the room.)

Cole: Is this the great thing you saw us doing together?

Seer: Perhaps. However, you won't even know unless the Source is stopped first. It's your only chance to save your love.

(He walks over to her and she opens the box. The bee-like creatures fly into Cole through his eyes and mouth.)

The loss of his demon half is what allowed Cole to be possessed by the Source so easily.  He only thought he was helping Phoebe and her sisters by taking in the Hollow.

Es, I think you're letting your hatred of Cole's character blind you to the facts.

[lilchi7212]

Aug 22, 2015 10:12:12 GMT -5 Esmeralda said:

Aug 22, 2015 10:05:03 GMT -5 @bettynewbie said:

The Charmed Ones are NOT Wiccans. For the MILLIONTH time.

Yeah, Cole was just trapped into an ugly situation. It probably wasn't the best idea for him to listen to the Seer, but he didn't have many options, especially since he was no longer Belthazor.

But he was! It was his powers that Phoebe's potion had taken away. That's why it was so easy for him to not tell the sisters anything about now having the title of the Source - he was still and always would be Belthazor much more than he was ever the human Cole.

 I think he didn't tell her was b/c of he was afraid of getting shunned again like he did in "Exit Strategy" I betcha the Source inside of him was probably reminding Cole about how he was shunned by Phoebe after he killed Jeanna.

[Deleted]

It all comes back to that rubbish black and white morality that Charmed had.  Kern is not the only one at fault here, as I said, Execute Producers Aaron Spelling and E. Duke Vincent (born in 1923 and 1932) are also at fault here.  Both came of age in the 1950's, and time locked Charmed into that bygone era.  This probably why Charmed has been sadly forgotten by everyone except those people here.

Compare that to Buffy and Supernatural, both shows which have shades of gray.  The reason, Joss Whedon (born in 1964) and Eric Kripke (born in 1974) ran their shows with modern values in mind because they came of age in the modern era.   Because of that, these shows have caught on in a way that Charmed never could, IMO.

[ljones]

The Charmed Ones are NOT Wiccans. For the MILLIONTH time.

I am quite aware that what they regard as "Wiccan" is a load of crock. But I cannot help but wonder why they kept referring to them following "the Wiccan code"? Or that Piper and Leo were married in a Wiccan ceremony . . . allegedly.





If you'd watch "The Three Faces of Phoebe" (I think that's the name of the episode), you'd see that Cole did try to tell Phoebe. But the Source's influence prevented him.

But . . . it was not Phoebe's fault that Cole became possessed by the Source.

[lilchi7212]

Sept 3, 2015 22:56:04 GMT -5 ljones said:

The Charmed Ones are NOT Wiccans. For the MILLIONTH time.

I am quite aware that what they regard as "Wiccan" is a load of crock. But I cannot help but wonder why they kept referring to them following "the Wiccan code"? Or that Piper and Leo were married in a Wiccan ceremony . . . allegedly.





If you'd watch "The Three Faces of Phoebe" (I think that's the name of the episode), you'd see that Cole did try to tell Phoebe. But the Source's influence prevented him.

But . . . it was not Phoebe's fault that Cole became possessed by the Source.

That's what I said before but some people haven't bought into that apparently or they don't accept it. I don't know the whole Source storyline is confusing.

[adzpower]

Cole being The Source was Cole's fault, he didn't have to agree to take in the hollow, not only that but he had tons of chances to tell Phoebe the truth so the sisters could have helped him, but he left it too long and by then it was too late.

[yinsoul]

Sept 4, 2015 16:14:06 GMT -5 adzpower said:

Cole being The Source was Cole's fault, he didn't have to agree to take in the hollow, not only that but he had tons of chances to tell Phoebe the truth so the sisters could have helped him, but he left it too long and by then it was too late.

He didn't have to say yes to the Seer's plan, certainly not. So yes it was his fault, in that way, but honestly, can he be faulted for it?
The sister's powers were gone, aside from Phoebe's. Leo was about ten minutes from pushing up daisies again. Sourcey McStupidBeard (thanks O.L.) was closing in like a dog on a treeless squirrel, after which the Hollow was going to to take him out. Here Cole was, squishily mortal in the middle of it all, and his beloved was next on the axe block. Then the Seer says, "Well, you could stop him..."
Conniving thing that she was or not, its pretty hard to say I wouldnt have agreed to something kind of sketchy too. What was he going to do? Run? Even with Pheebs in tow (if she would have gone, because I doubt the others would have, and she wouldn't have abandoned her sisters), what exactly would they have done powerless? Dont forget ol' Sourcey is a ticking timebomb which even the Seer was sweating bullets about. The Hollow practically had its knife and fork and napkin all ready to go; it didn't seem like it would have taken long.
Yes, he shouldn't have agreed, of course, but imho, he didn't seem to have much of a choice. It was just bad.

I think Esmeralda will disagree, but it also seemed like Cole was being suppressed. (During The Three Faces of Phoebe theres that little convo in his head "I'll kill us both," "Mwa ha no you won't", not to mention the bathroom scene, which seemed as if he was in pain when he tried to say something to Phoebe- Ill have to study the rest of the episode.) Again, my opinion, but I feel as if Cole only shows up through mitigating actions- sparing Paige several times, his affection for Phoebe, and you really only see him again when its revealed that Pheebs is pregnant.

*stands by for tomatoes*

[Deleted]

Sept 3, 2015 22:56:04 GMT -5 ljones said:

I am quite aware that what they regard as "Wiccan" is a load of crock. But I cannot help but wonder why they kept referring to them following "the Wiccan code"? Or that Piper and Leo were married in a Wiccan ceremony . . . allegedly.

I guess the show was trying to hop on the Wicca bandwagon of the late 90s/early 00s (think The Craft and Practical Magic). Willow from Buffy became a "Wiccan" for the same reasons.

The Wicca fad more-or-less died sometime around 2001-02, which is one reason why the "Wicca" shoutouts mostly disappeared in the later seasons.

[lilchi7212]

Sept 4, 2015 20:08:32 GMT -5 @bettynewbie said:

Sept 3, 2015 22:56:04 GMT -5 ljones said:

I am quite aware that what they regard as "Wiccan" is a load of crock. But I cannot help but wonder why they kept referring to them following "the Wiccan code"? Or that Piper and Leo were married in a Wiccan ceremony . . . allegedly.

I guess the show was trying to hop on the Wicca bandwagon of the late 90s/early 00s (think The Craft and Practical Magic). Willow from Buffy became a "Wiccan" for the same reasons.

The Wicca fad more-or-less died sometime around 2001-02, which is one reason why the "Wicca" shoutouts mostly disappeared in the later seasons.

Yeah but it came back with Vampire Diaries and The Originals