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Post by erikamarie on Feb 15, 2016 11:55:24 GMT -5
No, it wasn't. The essence of the Source went with him to the Demonic Wasteland - that is obvious since it was *that* Source who we saw return in S8 - the Hollow only absorbs powers, not essences, and it was those powers that went into Cole. He was never possessed - he just gave into the powers when they went into him because he'd rather be evil and powerful than good and powerless. If that wasn't the case, he would've/should've told the sisters so they could take the powers/essence out of him. He never did. He didn't want to be good - he just wanted Phoebe. Everything he did and everything that happened to him was his own fault, just like everything she did and everything that happened to her was Phoebe's fault, even if Little Miss Itsnevermyfault could never admit that and had to find someone to blame, so she blamed Cole. You say that as if it were a simple acquiescence of wills and morality which he was almost enthused to receive. If he had absolutely no yearning to become good then his subconscience wouldn't be actively projecting this separation of personalities. By your own admission, it was as if he were suffering from dissociative personality disorder, implying that he couldn't bear to handle the suffering he inflicted onto others, which means that he must not be the heartless sociopath who single-mindedly only cares for himself and Phoebe that some people describe him as being. This hearkens back to what I said about his interaction with Phoebe in "Bride and Gloom". If he was truly just interested in having Phoebe to himself without the shackles of changing his way of his life then he would have shimmered out of that room with his love on his arm. Lord knows she probably wouldn't have objected given how callous she became towards her sisters and people in general as a result of Dantalian's spell. Then there's his gesture in "Death takes a Halliwell" when he stopped Prue from needlessly torturing the Seekers, and this was right after they had gotten done trying to kill him. I don't believe people give Cole enough credit. Him changing his ways wasn't a farce. He made a genuine effort to do better that extended past wanting to appease Phoebe. The man even sacrificed his long sought after father for her and that was the whole reason for going after the Charmed Ones in the first place which everyone always seems to forget because it would imply that the sisters and their binary approach to morality is flawed. Cole is the more complex Charmed's demon and male character, for this reason he attracts and feeds talks And for this reason I cannot accept the idea of possession: he lived nearly 100 years as demon,he knows the battle in which a nameless demon conquered Source's powers, can not fail to understand that those powers are going to fill the void left by Belthazor's powers If he didn't know it,he'ld be an idiot and Cole is anything but an idiot Since his first appearance we saw he was different from the others, he used being independent and play the game according to his schemes:he remembered Hannibal Smith of the A team, I expected he put a cigar in his mouth saying: I love it When a plan comes together I think he was aware of what involved Seer's offer but he had two good reasons to take risks: -He loves Phoebe and wants to protect her He wants his powers back, why not those of the Source? He'ld know how to control them, he'ld control the whole Underworld, he has already a good plan in his mind, Phoebe would be safe, and also her sisters Cole cannot exist without Belthazor,the loss of power, good idea in theory, is untenable in practice, how could he, after having been for so many decades estimated and powerful and feared, agree to be busy with the maintenance of a car while his wife is fighting? In addition, Cole makes a field choice for love and necessity The action by which Cole gets rid of the Triad is impulsive, full of anger, is a gesture of breaking with the demonic world Cole moves to the other side of the chessboard, once he was with blacks, now he is with the whites but his rules of engagement are those of blacks, those which he understands and with which he was educate His whole new world revolves around Phoebe and her sisters, but it is a world arduous to live and to understand Cole takes a risk consciously, a common trait between Cole and Belthazor is a great self-confidence Source' powers are like the Goddesses' powers: huge, hard to handle Oh My GoddessLeo: Are you ready? Paige: Just get it out of me. (Leo lifts the lid of the urn and Paige's god powers return to it.) Leo: How do you feel? Paige: Phew. Free. Great powers corrupt, it's a theme that runs through all of Western Literature, is the main theme of the Lord of the Rings: certain powers are a too strong temptation, Galandriel refused Frodo's offer when he wished she was the Keeper of the Ring Cole has a bold nature,as the arrogant mercenary he was and maybe he didn't read a lot, not as Drake: he takes the risk Paige and Phoebe and Piper manage to leave those dangerous powers thanks to their humanity, Cole is half human, that is the part that struggle for Phoebe but Bethazor enjoys the freedom that those powers involv Bride and GloomPhoebe: Well, I gotta admit it, it was kind of fun. Piper: Phoebe... Phoebe: Well, it was fun for a while. I mean, to be able to do whatever we wanted whenever we wanted with no consequences. Imaginary FriendsFuture Wyatt: Ah. I just feel so free. I can’t believe I spent a whole other lifetime weighed down by the repressive morality by all that good. The demonic powers have great attraction and they are part of Cole I believe that the initial answers misplaced: it's not a question of fault,it's nobody's fault A series of events put Cole in front of a choice, he consciously accepts a risk and when he realises he was wrong, he opts for getting rid of those powers:if he was possessed he'ld not do it Phoebe makes an equally serious mistake, she doesn't see that the Seer is playing her along Cole gets wrong for too much self-confidence, Phoebe gets wrong for too much insecurity: these are mistakes, not faults |
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Post by Sadrick on Feb 15, 2016 16:46:30 GMT -5
You say that as if it were a simple acquiescence of wills and morality which he was almost enthused to receive. If he had absolutely no yearning to become good then his subconscience wouldn't be actively projecting this separation of personalities. By your own admission, it was as if he were suffering from dissociative personality disorder, implying that he couldn't bear to handle the suffering he inflicted onto others, which means that he must not be the heartless sociopath who single-mindedly only cares for himself and Phoebe that some people describe him as being. This hearkens back to what I said about his interaction with Phoebe in "Bride and Gloom". If he was truly just interested in having Phoebe to himself without the shackles of changing his way of his life then he would have shimmered out of that room with his love on his arm. Lord knows she probably wouldn't have objected given how callous she became towards her sisters and people in general as a result of Dantalian's spell. Then there's his gesture in "Death takes a Halliwell" when he stopped Prue from needlessly torturing the Seekers, and this was right after they had gotten done trying to kill him. I don't believe people give Cole enough credit. Him changing his ways wasn't a farce. He made a genuine effort to do better that extended past wanting to appease Phoebe. The man even sacrificed his long sought after father for her and that was the whole reason for going after the Charmed Ones in the first place which everyone always seems to forget because it would imply that the sisters and their binary approach to morality is flawed. Cole is the more complex Charmed's demon and male character, for this reason he attracts and feeds talks And for this reason I cannot accept the idea of possession: he lived nearly 100 years as demon,he knows the battle in which a nameless demon conquered Source's powers, can not fail to understand that those powers are going to fill the void left by Belthazor's powers If he didn't know it,he'ld be an idiot and Cole is anything but an idiot Since his first appearance we saw he was different from the others, he used being independent and play the game according to his schemes:he remembered Hannibal Smith of the A team, I expected he put a cigar in his mouth saying: I love it When a plan comes together I think he was aware of what involved Seer's offer but he had two good reasons to take risks: -He loves Phoebe and wants to protect her He wants his powers back, why not those of the Source? He'ld know how to control them, he'ld control the whole Underworld, he has already a good plan in his mind, Phoebe would be safe, and also her sisters Cole cannot exist without Belthazor,the loss of power, good idea in theory, is untenable in practice, how could he, after having been for so many decades estimated and powerful and feared, agree to be busy with the maintenance of a car while his wife is fighting? In addition, Cole makes a field choice for love and necessity The action by which Cole gets rid of the Triad is impulsive, full of anger, is a gesture of breaking with the demonic world Cole moves to the other side of the chessboard, once he was with blacks, now he is with the whites but his rules of engagement are those of blacks, those which he understands and with which he was educate His whole new world revolves around Phoebe and her sisters, but it is a world arduous to live and to understand Cole takes a risk consciously, a common trait between Cole and Belthazor is a great self-confidence Source' powers are like the Goddesses' powers: huge, hard to handle Oh My GoddessLeo: Are you ready? Paige: Just get it out of me. (Leo lifts the lid of the urn and Paige's god powers return to it.) Leo: How do you feel? Paige: Phew. Free. Great powers corrupt, it's a theme that runs through all of Western Literature, is the main theme of the Lord of the Rings: certain powers are a too strong temptation, Galandriel refused Frodo's offer when he wished she was the Keeper of the Ring Cole has a bold nature,as the arrogant mercenary he was and maybe he didn't read a lot, not as Drake: he takes the risk Paige and Phoebe and Piper manage to leave those dangerous powers thanks to their humanity, Cole is half human, that is the part that struggle for Phoebe but Bethazor enjoys the freedom that those powers involv Bride and GloomPhoebe: Well, I gotta admit it, it was kind of fun. Piper: Phoebe... Phoebe: Well, it was fun for a while. I mean, to be able to do whatever we wanted whenever we wanted with no consequences. Imaginary FriendsFuture Wyatt: Ah. I just feel so free. I can’t believe I spent a whole other lifetime weighed down by the repressive morality by all that good. The demonic powers have great attraction and they are part of Cole I believe that the initial answers misplaced: it's not a question of fault,it's nobody's fault A series of events put Cole in front of a choice, he consciously accepts a risk and when he realises he was wrong, he opts for getting rid of those powers:if he was possessed he'ld not do it Phoebe makes an equally serious mistake, she doesn't see that the Seer is playing her along Cole gets wrong for too much self-confidence, Phoebe gets wrong for too much insecurity: these are mistakes, not faults What a way to make a loose reference to John Dalberg-Acton. You look at comparative situations then try to establish some type of equivalency while emphasising the severity of Cole's dilemma and how others were capable of relinquishing the power they were given. The difference is that the deity powers didn't have the tacked on condition of having a moralistic slant towards evil like the Source's power does. They're destructive and overbearing, yes, but not inherently evil like the Source's were, which happened to be so potent that it rendered Phoebe's unborn child a soulless personification of evil. Phoebe acknowledged this when she stipulated how the baby's personality wasn't like hers or Cole's. The one thing that's more important to Cole than power or authority is his overriding love for Phoebe. Why would he choose to relinquish the perfect expression of that love for an empty caricature that holds no relevance to these feelings? Even the Seer came out and admitted in the second to last episode how the child wasn't his. This doesn't mean you don't have a point about Cole's predilection for the macabre elements of magic. The demonic upbringing under his mother made him prone to murderous and selfish impulses. His willingness to use the Grimoire for the sake of his personal resurrection is a case in point, and he was technically human at the time to boot. Although, to be fair, we don't know the particulars about the spell in question. Phoebe felt disinclined from using it for the simple reason of it being oriented towards evil. There's been worse in other series like when Sam and Castiel in SPN consciously chose to seek out the dark tomes of the Book of the Damned for help while bleeding an innocent person to death, and they're supposed to be the good guys. I don't believe it's fair or appropriate to assign presumed motives to Cole without any substantive proof indicating such. We know that the Seer's initial enticement of becoming powerful again fell on deaf ears. It wasn't until she brought up the prospect of saving Phoebe that he was open to the possibility. Now let's put someone like Leo or Paige, absent of her Whitelighter half, in there instead of Cole. How probable is it that they would choose to turn down what is being pitched as a way to save their loved ones from certain death? Leo was already gullible and desperate enough to accept becoming an Avatar when faced with the death of his wife. I question if he would allow his moral extremism to come between rescuing his precious loved one. The sisters admitted that everyone shares some degree of susceptibility to evil. Who knows? Maybe in this alternate scenario we could be seeing Leo as the Source and the sisters would be forced to vanquish him instead. The question is would they be content to let him "move on" as Phoebe wanted Cole to do in spite of his own victimisation as a result of the Seer's trickery? Temptation goes both ways. I'm wondering if they wouldn't allow their own prejudice and hypocrisy to cloud the pragmatism of their decision making in allowing Leo to survive in this alternate scenario. |
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Post by erikamarie on Feb 16, 2016 11:46:37 GMT -5
John Dalberg-Acton belongs to the world of political thought, I was speaking of the literary tradition, which starts from the legend, crosses over the tale, follows the chivalrous poetry by Sicilian troubadours onwards and it's beautifully summed up in the Lord of the Rings: the human being is likely to be corrupted by exaggerated magical powers
The powers are neutral: Leo fears that the power of the gods can overwhelm the sisters, demons try to steal the power of Elders that relinquishes his status, Crone had probably an hidden agenda about Wyat's power such as the Seer with Phoebe's baby
The Source's powers are extreme powers, the oath on the Grimoire is symbolic, the demonic personality makes demonic powers
As in Lord of the Rings: the wise kings of the Elves'ld use the Ring to do wonderful things, to save and protect their kingdoms but sooner or later the thirst for supremacy'ld infect them
I agree, and in fact I wrote it, that Cole's love for Phoebe is a powerful motivation to accept Seer's plan
I think that also the desire to be reunited with himself, or with his powers, is a powerful incentive, and I don't believe it's a question of good or bad, I don't care, I think it was a big mistake to think that Cole would cut off part of himself
When he dreamed a life free of powers to spend quietly with his Phoebe, Cole had no idea what it meant:too late he discovers that the reality is very tough
It's no accident that the writers insert two small scenes that would seem unnecessary: Cole that goes away for a long time because he doesn't know how long and tiring is a walk, Cole that takes a pan from the oven without protection because he doesn't know it burns
Black as Cole
Cole: For all intensive purposes I've been a demon for over a hundred years, it's all I've ever know. Or Been. What am I supposed to do now? Who am I?
He was living a painful and difficult existential crisis
Anyway, Cole is not possessed and it's clear when he chooses to give up his powers
This is the highest moment of Cole as enamored man because he knows, he knows now, how exhausting life as a simple human being may be but he is ready to do it rather than lose Phoebe and the baby
Ready to normality, ready to raise his kid as a witch, ready to go out in the morning without a Porsche waiting for him and ready to see his wife full of bruising for a punch up with demons
A great gesture of love
Phoebe behaves the same way: she is aware it's crazy, sure enough she tells her sisters nothing, she knows that is wrong but she thinks to be ready for anything and to accept everything to save her husband and her son
She throws out of the window all her life without thinking, the same Cole's great gesture of love
Clearly, if maybe, just maybe, Cole'ld adapt himself to a human life, Phoebe isn't able to adapt herself to the life on the evil side, she tries improbable balances and the she surrenders
But Cole and Phoebe make the same gesture moved by the same love, and at this point Phoebe understands how dangerous could be a love that makes you deny yourself
I don't rack my brains about guilt, morality, who is good or who is bad: Cole and Phoebe's love story is beautiful precisely because it's a story full of mistakes, selflessnesss, nonsenses like any passionate love story
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Post by lilchi7212 on Feb 16, 2016 14:17:44 GMT -5
Yeah I don't believe what you say about that at all That's okay. It's the fun of being fans - we can each look at things the way we want to. If you want to look at Cole through rose-colored glasses (which is funny since Paige was the only one to see him for what he really was), you can. If you can't admit that if the essence of the Source *wasn't* vanquished with the Source, the original Source would not have shown up - essence attached - in Season 8, that's fine. But it's funny in Which Way Now Cole says that worm thing feeds on essence it's power so does that mean that power is connected to a demon's essence? You know what the writers really screwed everything up for me. |
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Post by sol on Feb 16, 2016 16:05:15 GMT -5
That's okay. It's the fun of being fans - we can each look at things the way we want to. If you want to look at Cole through rose-colored glasses (which is funny since Paige was the only one to see him for what he really was), you can. If you can't admit that if the essence of the Source *wasn't* vanquished with the Source, the original Source would not have shown up - essence attached - in Season 8, that's fine. But it's funny in Which Way Now Cole says that worm thing feeds on essence it's power so does that mean that power is connected to a demon's essence? You know what the writers really screwed everything up for me. Cole: It's alright, you did the right thing. The Source is gone, devoured. This is the waste land where all vanquished demons end up. The beast feeds on their essence, their power Typically the comma takes the place of "and", then the beast sucks the essence and the powers of the demons, the powers of the Source have been sucked but the essence, Cole also having a soul, not Would it work? |
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Post by Sadrick on Feb 16, 2016 16:57:04 GMT -5
John Dalberg-Acton belongs to the world of political thought, I was speaking of the literary tradition, which starts from the legend, crosses over the tale, follows the chivalrous poetry by Sicilian troubadours onwards and it's beautifully summed up in the Lord of the Rings: the human being is likely to be corrupted by exaggerated magical powers My point still remains. You made reference to an over-encompassing quotation with philosophical and thematical implications that span across fields of study and practice. All of which in the confines of Charmed would characterise many people, not just Cole, some of whom would be labeled as benevolent people. I can't speak for what this analogy entails as I never have read or watched Lord of the Rings. However, my first impression is that unforeseen exigent circumstances may have contributed to this perversion of ideals which is being attached to the power they wielded as a causal factor. None of the examples you cited could really share the same kind of moral extremity as the Source's power did. He epitomised malevolence. His heir had no personality whatsoever except to destroy, kill or murder -- an emotionless caricature as I stated previously. The deity powers were domineering and influential, but they were never inherently evil. The sisters can ride that high horse of theirs once they've have had that overbearing essence inserted into their bodies and they somehow manage to overcome it through sheer force of will or abhorrence against such evil. Cole tried to help in other ways. For example, his purchasing of a gun or when he offered to help with solving crimes for the police on his own initiative. I think you're misinterpreting a desire to be a contributive asset to others with a yearning for power. Yes, Cole's most familiar approach to relevancy is the powers he was accustomed to using, but that wasn't his only avenue. He never sought out supernatural powers in spite of his resentment at not being able to help protect his love and loss of identity. He wants to feel like his presence means something. If you want to cite Cole "becoming" the Source as an indication of his guilt in this context then let's give a look over Leo's record. We would realise that he too despises not being able to help when his loved ones are in jeopardy. That's the whole reason for him reclaming his wings in "Murphey's Luck" and becoming an Avatar in "Someone to Witch over Me". Different conditions, true, but the same fundamental desire to not be a burden which lead them into accepting power is there. Moreover, if you'll recall, it was originally Cole who first suggested that his powers be stripped, not Phoebe. Yeah, I remember those scenes. Leo also experienced a feeling of emptiness and inadequacy when he was mortal trying to adjust to normal society. Recall how he needed to live at Piper's club in Season 2 and the resentment he felt at not being able to provide for Piper when he was on that double date with her, Phoebe, and Cole -- "You want me in the real world but I'm not of this world." Those were his exact words. It's too bad Cole didn't get the same opportunities or time as Leo. Double standards allowed the latter to get away with murdering an Elder in cold blood while the former is condemned for killing two criminals in self-defence. Did it ever occur to dissidents like yourself that the Source was actively trying to appease Cole? Watching his own person murder the woman he loves most could very easily set him off the deep end. That's the one thing that could galvanise Cole into doing everything he can to destroy whatever is left of the Source's essence instead of just passively whispering or meagrely scratching away at the walls of his own mind. It's the difference between a subdued prisoner and an enraged martyr with nothing left to lose. Too bad Cole only had like a few months to try and adjust before the Source started occupying his body. Leo had years by comparison and he still ended up with a career involving magic as the headmaster of Notwarts. I won't deny that Phoebe made a conscious decision by siding with Cole. How she arrive at that conclusion is another issue, though. She had recently found out that her soul mate had "become" the Source and her emotionless husk of a baby was likely also influencing her. The Seer saw a moment of a vulnerability and she struck. If anything, I would liken Phoebe's choice to Cole when he allowed the Hollow to enter his body. By Cole's own admission in Season 5, the sisters wouldn't "allow" him to be good and he refused to revert back to evil at first. Phoebe was also faced with a similar dilemma in "Long Live the Queen". What does that leave them with if they're not going to be good or evil? Neutrality. They should have proposed this as an alternative back in S4. Phoebe wouldn't have to go against her sisters and Cole could be with her without the torment of wrestling between two distinctly opposite inner natures. |
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Post by erikamarie on Feb 22, 2016 6:59:11 GMT -5
I have often written that time was a decisive factor in the relationship between Cole and Phoebe, if their story was grown without the Sorce's threat, it'ld be different, maybe it'ld also be over, for many other reasons
Leo instead needed no time, Leo was a young man of the 30s, a human raised and educated in a normal family, to turn human again it was simply the gift to have a second life after having sacrificed his ina so young age: he had a family, a wife and two kids, it'ld have adjustment or family problems, all solvable
Made this distinction, I find very fascinating Cole's character, because of the risk that assumes becoming the Source consciously, if I believed in a poor Cole falling into a trap and then possessed, I'ld find Cole's character silly and dumb
Could Cole become good? Of course
Cole'ld become anything he wanted but it'sn't a question of good or bad but of the understanding and acceptance of the rules, then you can break if you think it'ld be right, but first you need to understand its meaning
His chance is in Witches In Tights
Although Phoebe has firmly decided not to get involved with him, she fails to do so - a weakness that certainly worries her - and although she isn't a journalist, she pleases him agreeing to write about Edward Miller
When Miller threatens to reveal the truth about Phoebe, Cole has a wonderful chance; he can work out with Phoebe a plan to recover the tape, he can start a kind of partnership with her, to persuade her they'ld be friends and fellows
But he wastes it, not because he is a demon but because in his scale of values with such a person he has not to lose time, it's more quick to delete him
Maybe this is then that he realizes he lost also the last chance to relationship with Phoebe and began his madness, fueled by the enormous powers that he owns
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Post by Sadrick on Feb 22, 2016 16:13:07 GMT -5
I have often written that time was a decisive factor in the relationship between Cole and Phoebe, if their story was grown without the Sorce's threat, it'ld be different, maybe it'ld also be over, for many other reasons Leo instead needed no time, Leo was a young man of the 30s, a human raised and educated in a normal family, to turn human again it was simply the gift to have a second life after having sacrificed his ina so young age: he had a family, a wife and two kids, it'ld have adjustment or family problems, all solvable First off -- Leo wasn't in his 30s when he died, he was born in 1924 and died in 1942, which would make him 18 at the time of death. Secondly, the early portion of his life was dedicated to pursuing the field of medicine and becoming a doctor. In the interest of helping others, he enlisted in the Army to make a difference. Now pacifist or not, active serving medics are generally issued a firearm for self-protection and the protection of the people whom they're tending to. Leo happened to be serving close to or on the frontlines of Guadalcanal in WW2. I sincerely doubt he was able to keep his hands clean of blood while rushing out into fields where platoons of men were just shot. Leo grew up seventy years in the past. He really had no social experience with trying to live in modern society. This was brought forth various times and served as a tribulation for him attempting to adjust. It doesn't matter if you grew up with humans or what, if you're living in a completely different era from the one you grew up in then you're going to be confused and have difficulty, if only at the beginning. Cole actually handled modern life better than Leo did and he was born back during the late 1800s. There's nothing silly, trite, or absurd about it. The Source is by and large the most dangerous possessive essence on the show. The sisters ignorantly believed that the situation was as simplistic as Cole "choosing" to become the Source when they have no grasp of the specifics regarding his situation or the danger that comes with the Source being inside their bodies. I'll say it again -- they can ride that high horse all they want once they've overcome the Source having control of their body. Which rules would that be? I can't recall any particular incident involving him when he was human except when he got arrested for not having an ID/driving license and getting fired for assaulting that slumlord. The sisters have done worse than the latter on various occasions like when they turned fellow employees into animals out of spite in later seasons. You do understand that his sanity was already deteriorating by this point, correct? He had untold numbers of demonic powers running through him that were influencing his behaviour. We've already seen what happens when a benevolent person is exposed to evil powers. We should be juxtaposing human Cole's ability to cope under stressful situations with the sisters. He was violent and threatening, but that was under particularly tumultuous circumstances with a scumbag landlord in S4 who didn't give a cr*p about his tenants. I can locate several instances where the sisters abused others at their place of work. Here's Cole as a human at work... Those are some pretty exigent circumstances. Do you really think the sisters would have been able to maintain their composure when hearing about some jack*ss allowing his tenants to get sick while threatening to kick them out? I don't care what Phoebe said in the tights episode. Her only interaction with a slumlord came in S5 and she was dangling him over the side of a building threatening to drop him if he didn't meet her demands. Let's look at some of the other sisters and how they cope with similarly adverse conditions. So Paige not only shapeshifted herself into Flo in order to deceive and seduce this man, but she attacks him by orbing a flower pot into his head. Deception, violence and intimidation are apparently praiseworthy tools to use in helping someone with humanly issues for the sisters. I would have cited Phoebe's little confrontation with Spencer Ricks in "House Call" -- she came pretty close to killing him when he was transformed into a turkey -- but I decided that it was a circumstantial incident because of the Witch Doctor's hex heightening her obsessive tendencies. What I won't abide by, though, is her consciously choosing to reenact that repugnant scene by transforming him into a turkey and then attempting to do so again while leaving him there at a public location to wonder about aimlessly. She made the choice to exploit her own magical abilities as a form of punishment against Spencer Ricks with no impetus holding any control over her mind. She willingly decided to endanger his life by keeping him as a pig while she was gone. It's a good thing no one attempted to enter the room because he might have been carried off to some institution, farm, or slaughterhouse and no one would know what happened to him. Next we have Piper... So rather than try and allay the situation with snoopy reporters in a civilised manner like a dignified human being would, Piper opts to take a page out of Phoebe's book and rely on magic to punish these people. This is the same woman who whines incessantly about not being able to enjoy a normal life that has no magic in it. She doesn't like all of the baggage that comes with magic, but when it comes to benefiting herself she has no qualms in turning to it for help. There's even an example of Prue using than less dignified parlance when confronted by someone who isn't seeing eye to eye with her. So as you can see, this is not simply an isolated incident. Hypocrisy is deeply entrenched into the mindsets of these women. We can look towards the coping dilemma that Cole had with vocational human life, but the sisters are hardly any better. They knowingly exploited their own powers as a mechanism to obtain what they were hoping for. Dispute that they meant no harm in it if you want. Their first instinct should not be to exploit their gifts, hurt others, or intimidate as a solution. It only paints them in a worse light compared with Cole. He was being influenced by the multitude of demonic powers coursing through his body. We shouldn't even be using that incident as a strike against him. If you want to damage his credibility then use his interaction with the slumlord while he was a human as an evidentiary example. Even then, the severity of that man's actions as an abusive landlord who was literally having an impact on the health and livelihood of people which he couldn't give a d*mn about is much worse compared to the greedy Mr Barker, Paige's rude temp job employer, Spencer Ricks, or some nosy reporters. Cole had to sit down and try to negotiate with this man in a small confined office space. Do you really think the sisters would have fared much better if put in the same situation? I highly doubt it. Yes, of course...while he was already under the influence of all those powers for what must have been months. Can we also mention Phoebe being moments away from butchering a human man in cold blood while having her obsessive tendencies amplified by a Witch Doctor? Or Piper nonchalantly teasing about the idea of blowing up innocent people? Or how about Paige deceiving her employer and bludgeoning him over the head with a flower pot? These situations are written to be perceived in some comical light, but I don't see it that way. I perceive them as the makings of self-aggrandising exploitative hypocrites who spit on the old tenets of not using their powers to punish the guilty at the drop of a hat. At least Cole has the excuse of being a confused wondering soul who hasn't yet managed to adjust to the difficulties of mortal life. The sisters should know better. |
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Post by erikamarie on Feb 26, 2016 6:08:27 GMT -5
A promise: I don't care to make the list of good and bad
I wrote it several times, I repeat: if Prue, Piper, Phoebe, Paige had been devoted and focused only in saving innocent, good and perfect heroines, I'ld never watch Charmed
Instead, everyone'ld feel in sync with unpretentious and lively young women,that could have been our friends, dealing with the discovery of supernatural powers
A while ago, at the Locarno film festival I followed an interesting debate about how the writers drafted the characters in TV shows and Alliso Schapker told of the studies of the personality that are the basis of the characters of the sisters
Two examples:
-a former alcoholic is often a tense person, frequently he changes jobs and friendships: Paige in fact is constantly looking for something new, painting, singing, social services, tempory jobs, teaching
-a traumatic abortion often causes an involution introverted and closed in the character of a woman, Phoebe driftes apart even from magic, after the loss of her child
The three sisters' personality follows classical patterns: Prue, forced into a role of responsibility from an early age, developed a resolved and sometimes reckless nature, Phoebe, almost isolated from her sisters because of her younger age, develops an insecure and rebellious character, Piper is forced into a mediator role that evolves in the characteristics of the family woman, love for the kitchen and tendency to justify
I especially appreciate Piper because being a witch is not in her nature and wills: shelooks like Andy, Dan, she wishes a life in which love, children, work, friendship harmonize with calmness, she doesn't have the attitudeg more adventurous - Phoebe- or ambitious - Prue- of her sisters
As she says in I forget which episode, complaining and worrying are her quiet way to rebel against a life that accepts with responsibility but of which she'ld do without
The long prologue was to emphasize that, seeing them as normal women, I appreciate flaws and small egoisms, ridiculous in front of the incessant risk to which their lives are subjected
So if Prue threatens a bully, Paige helps a friend using magic, Phoebe and Piper behave as Circe -often I also dream to turn some journalists into rats- I don't care and I am not indignant,they'ld serenely use their magic, just better do not be exposed
I like Cole, but the Cole half man, half demon, not the holy picture of a man who wanted so strongly being good but because of the sisters failed
For many years Cole lived very well in the demonic world, acquiring fame and respect: when he realizes he cannot kill Phoebe, he plays in advance and eliminates the Triad, knowing full well that he'ld pay his failure - Rex docet
At this point he has two choices: to disappear for a while, be helpful to the Source when he'ld have the opportunity and be forgiven, forgetting Phoebe or switch on the side of the humans, living in their society with Phoebe
He chooses Phoebe and chooses to be more Cole and less Belthazor, because being Belthazor it means to have a perception of reality more free, that would brings him to upset laws and human taboos - both Phoebe and Wyatt say that the charm of evil is the feeling of being able to do anything, freely
Cole takes a leap into the unknown out for love but he doesn't really live in human society,he appears next to Phoebe for picnic or romantic evenings, or helps the sisters in their battles, but he is out of a social context nor is interested about it
The speech on the Source has already been thrashed out: IMO, the Source's powers are absorbed as those of Elders or the Gods, like all the very powers they are dangerous but cannot posses a person and the centennial Cole'ld know how they work: in fact he is ready to get rid of them when he realizes that Phoebe has finally discovered the truth
You assert tha Phoebe broke their relationship because he had become the Source but this is not true, Phoebe never scolded Cole for what he has done, not only that, she seems to think that he was possessed, effectively she is fully convinced of having freed and giving him peace
But Phoebe's decision to close forever, however painful it may be, borns because she never wants to live what she lived and it seems a powerful reason
Neither Phoebe nor Piper - in the Seven Years Witch Piper speaks only of her unborn nephew- criticize Cole of being the Source, Phoebe doesn't say a word on the child obtained by deception and drugged with his consent, showing great generosity
Phoebe, like every woman has every right to say enough
Once he understands that Phoebe'll not return with him, Cole's interest in the human world disappears, because it existed only in Phoebe's function, and here the real drama borns
Cole has no more home, has betrayed the demonic world killing the Triad, has failed as a Source
He might try to stay human, living without powers, to be a lawyer seriously, look for the descendants of his family to have a new purpose, let the time pass by maybe trying one day to become a friend of the sisters, but his purpose was only Phoebe, without her he cares for nothing
The most beautiful and serious exchange between Cole and Phoebe happens in the episode of the Siren, when he understands and agrees with her fears
Yet, even after having tried to strangle her, he manages to get Phoebe's attention, it's only after uselessly killing Miller and the prospect to use Mller's blackmail to make up a new adventure with Phoebe, that he realizes that their love story is finished
This awareness leads to an understandable collapse in a man who has lost everything but this cannot mean that Phoebe'ls have the duty to return with him maybe to keep him trying to kill Paige or kills an innocent because Paige was accused, it'ld be really an illogical claim"
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ljones
Whitelighter
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Post by ljones on Feb 26, 2016 11:57:48 GMT -5
Which is impossible, considering that Leo was already in medical school when the U.S. entered World War II. Does this mean that Piper dated and married a guy who was forever 18 years old?
I no longer care about Phoebe and Cole's love story being finished. I doubt if I would have been able to support one between a woman who lacked the maturity to face the fact that not only was her love a complex individual, but that she, her sisters and Leo were just as complex in their own way and a demon/man hybrid, whose only real problem was that he remained in love with a woman who was not emotionally capable of accepting him for himself.
Yes, Cole had to live with his actions. But the same could be said for the Halliwells and Leo. And unfortunately, this show seemed unwilling to allow the Halliwells to suffer for their own mistakes and crimes, except in "Morality Bites" and "Crimes & Witch Demeanors".
Cole is guilty for a lot of crap. But the Source had possessed him in late Season 4. The episodes and the transcripts made this perfectly clear. He was not the only character on this show to be possessed. But it's apparent that Kern really screwed up the writing in regard to the Source story arc so that Phoebe would not have a reason to mourn Cole once he was really gone. If the sisters had acknowledged that they had been wrong to kill Cole without finding out what really happened to him, they could have grown as characters. Questioned their own tendencies to quickly judge others based upon the latter's past or for superficial reasons. But they didn't. Instead, Kern and his writers led the viewers to believe that Cole had deliberately made the choice to become the Source for his own selfish reasons or because he was evil. And in doing this, the Halliwells were doomed to be stuck in their black-and-white morality. They never really grew as characters after that.
Why in the hell did Cole have to exist without his demonic half? Why? That is how he was born. He didn't need to get rid of his powers in order to choose another path in life. That's ridiculous. This is nothing but a result of the show's inability to portray all or most characters in an ambiguous manner, instead of dumping this human=good or ambiguity/demon=evil crap on us. Because that is what it is to me . . . crap.
Why should Cole give up his powers? They were just magic. It could have been up to him on how he used his power in the future, if the writers had risen above their rigid morality. And before you point out the stuff he did in early Season 5, may I point out the crap that the Halliwells and Leo did with their own magic, especially during the series' latter half? Yeah, they had abused their magic on several occasions. Why aren't some people questioning why the sisters didn't remove their powers for the safety of others?
Phoebe was briefly punished in "Crimes & Witch Demeanors". But she still retained the ability to perform magic via spells and potions. And she got her premonitions back.
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Post by Sadrick on Feb 26, 2016 21:08:29 GMT -5
A promise: I don't care to make the list of good and bad Then your point really doesn't contain much evidence material, now does it? Constant assertion of supposed facts and half-truths without analysis of introspective counter proof that demonstrates a pattern of ignorance and hypocrisy with the characters who decry and condemn others. Okay, but that's not what is in dispute here. We're talking about you trying to rationalise some justification for Cole's actions being singled out while the sisters try and pretend that they're inherently in the right with no need to reflect back upon their own iniquities and realise that they should be justly punished in accordance to the severity of their own crimes. Phoebe temporarily losing her powers is hardly an adequate punishment for actions that extend over the lives of all the sisters. I don't see how any of what you're claiming here is ample reason to justify Piper's callous behaviour in exploiting her magical abilities in the punishment of humans. How or what is driving these sisters doesn't give them a blanket excuse to continue using what it is they consciously selected to keep rather than relinquish when they were offered the chance to give up the powers and live "normal" lives. Whatever the pretense may be, it doesn't give them a free hand to intimidate or attack others. We had this lesson provided to us in "Morality Bites" already. If they continue to relish in their hypocrisy as so called "benevolent" users of magic who deserve no reproach then that's even more reason to adjudicate them. We saw how they perceived themselves to be above authority when they were exposing magic left, right, and centre because of their incapability to clean up their mess with the Cleaners. The sisters may try and reason that Wyatt is a uniquely gifted individual, but it became Piper's responsibility to ensure that he doesn't expose magic when she chose to conceive him. But what does she do? She purposefully tries to endanger the entirety of the magical world in a profound act of selfishness which she brazenly states would continue on for decades if she didn't get her way. These women are neither deserving to remain as the figureheads of "good" magic nor do I actually believe they should have kept their powers. If they act and fight primarily in the benefit of their family without concern for the consequences that their actions may have on others then they shouldn't have this responsibility anymore. Remove their powers and let them flaunt their profoundly huge egoistic behaviours without bludgenoning or turning people into a hapless livestock. Here's an interesting line from Season 5... Phoebe doesn't even listen to her own advice. If we apply her logic here to when she turned Spencer Ricks into a turkey and pig, that wouldn't make her a good person, in fact her own label would indicate that she's bad. She would come across as arrogant, selfish, and self-absorbed with no serious right to be preaching morality to Cole. The same applies to Piper turning those reporters into rats and Paige bashing a man's skull with a flower pot. But they did fail, in many respects. Phoebe failed when she arrived at her own conclusions to spare Cole rather than vanquish him which he offered to let her do as a demonstration of his commitment to the love he had for her in "Sleuthing with the Enemy". She failed two more times afterwards when she sought him out to be with her rather than let Cole pursue his own path as he wanted to do in "All Hell Breaks Loose" and when she killed his last chance for a human life as he was trying to transfer the Source's powers to the wizard in S4. Let's not forget Paige in the S5 opener preventing him from leaving and subjected him to a spell that amplified his sentiments for her through an empathic realisation of how much Phoebe still loved him. That likely was a causal factor in him going insane and becoming obsessed with her. To say that the sisters failed him is an understatement. They kept dragging him back into their world and are even partly responsible for his initial death. Actually, the first leap of compulsion into a human-esque lifestyle came when he went undercover as an assistant district attorney in the interest of rescuing his father's soul. I don't fault you for believing that Phoebe was his first experience with love, though. Both the fans and the writers seem to ignore the fact that a heartless sociopath wouldn't go to such extremes for a dead man's soul. The love he has for his father should have given off some red flags to the sisters, but they didn't really seem concerned with the circumstances or reasoning, they just wanted him killed, even if it came at the expense of an innocent person. So pray tell, how is it that Leo distinguished himself in the pursuit of interacting with social mortal life? As far as I can recall, he only really interacted with anything or anyone when it had to do with Piper or his charges. He stayed at Piper's club in Season 2 as a human with little to no life outside of taking care of things at the establishment and trying to entice Piper back to him. I guess there's his contentious rivalry with Dan for Piper's affections if you want to call that a social life. Cole, in spite of his less than morally acceptable background, tried to make a life for himself by getting a job and offering to help the local police department with cases. Leo didn't do anything that wasn't magically or Piper/sister related until maybe when he had kids which has to do with his immediate family and magic anyway. I suppose there's his desire to fix up a car in Season 8 to look towards as an example for a normal life. It's a flimsy one, though. One which pales in comparison to Cole trying to help and contribute in normal human society through employment and services rendered to law enforcement. This reinforces what I stated previously about Cole having better adjusted to 21st century life. Leo has and always will be defined by his connection to either the sisters or magic -- he worked with magic, was surrounded by magic, and ended up teaching magic at a secretive institution for magical learning. Ironically, Cole's ability to blend in with human society as a half-demon enabled him to better handle the societal norms and expectations of the era, in spite of his frustration and disgust getting the better of him on one or two occasions. He was ready to relinquish them because of both this comprehension of the truth by Phoebe and because of the stated reason that Cole's humanity was growing stronger. The Source had control of Cole's mind and body, but not the humanity in Cole's soul. If it were simply a matter of Cole becoming evil again then his child living inside Phoebe would have had an actual humanlike personality, not turn out to be some emotionless personification of the Source. Powers can very much have a will of their own with an ethical slant towards either good or evil (with the exception of powers like the Avatars' who are technically neutral). They can be domineering and impulsive. It's the basis for Cole's descent into insanity in Season 5, and these were probably obtained from generic demons who fell into the wasteland. Peace from what? The months of internal oppression he suffered when the Source unknowingly took over his body after having just begun to settle into a normal human life? Did he ask to be killed as a form of release for himself? No, the sisters just committed it in the interest of vanquishing the Source and settling the vendetta they had with "Cole" for letting him "destroy" their sister; neither one of them could give a d*mn about Cole's peace of mind. This hearkens back to the analogy I made between Cole's situation and Meg's from SPN -- i.e. the cry for help from a victim who had no control over their own actions and the single-minded obsession of people who would "stop" them out of purely self-serving reasons which precipitated the death of an innocent bystander. Of course, so it's because of her own desire to move past this experience, in spite of bearing a great amount of the responsibility for Cole's situation in the first place, that the love of her life is told to "move on". Yeah... The blood pouring down her hands is very striking in its crimson complexion and sharp pungent smell, but I suppose she can always wash that out and pretend it never existed. I wish the same lesson could have been applied to Leo. He faces up to his own crimes in murdering an Elder and accepts whatever punishment that comes as a result. Piper should be compelled to move past it and accept that Leo is no longer the same man who she married and that it's for the best he finally be allowed to rest in peace. Unfortunately, that doesn't happen because double-standards reign supreme in this show. Spare me the flimsy gesture. Phoebe was never made aware of Cole's significance to the situation within the episode's chronological running. It wouldn't have mattered anyway. Piper already tears into Cole for "choosing" to become the Source, expressing a clear streak of ignorance on her part because Cole never chose to have the Source festering inside or taking over his body, and I sincerely doubt she harbours a discrepant opinion of that situation compared with Phoebe. Cole intended to leave for good in early Season 5, not just passively observe from afar and attempt to reenter the sisters' lives, but be gone from probably San Francisco itself. I mentioned this already. If it were a replica event of Season 3 by returning to the Underworld then you may have had a point, but he was seen packing a suitcase with what appeared to be legal documents. A demonic lifestyle where he's committed to ritual and murder doesn't require these earthly belongings unless he intended to go undercover again for whatever reason. Do you know what finally inspired him to decide on leaving? Some words of advice from Darryl who listened to what Cole had to say. Darryl practically admitted that they weren't friends, but if his opinion didn't matter to Cole then he wouldn't have taken Darryl's advice to heart. Paige literally had to place an emotionally manipulative spell on him to compel him to help Phoebe. If Cole's whole existence in the human world was singularly defined by his affections for Phoebe then he wouldn't be seeking out a new purpose to his life that doesn't involve her. He would have contentedly stayed at the manor with no concern over anything else except his relationship. This was already addressed in an episode. The fear generated by his demonic powers, you mean. We went over a similar antipathy with Leo both when he was unstable and when he had become an Avatar. It's fortunate for him that the sisters didn't ostracise him, because otherwise we might be seeing an equally psychotic Leo who kills anything or anyone that gets in his way while obsessively pining for Piper and his son. In fact, Phoebe was dangling Miller over the side of a building threatening to drop him. That's hardly a more justifiable action to take for someone who pretends that they're on the side of angels. Another detail that you left out is the Siren having placed a spell on Cole as he was strangling Phoebe. His abilities are potentially dangerous, but so are Leo's and even the sisters'. All of whom have killed, injured, manipulated, or intimidated at some point as well. If Cole had not killed Miller then Phoebe no doubt would have attempted a similarly extreme resolution once realising that he wasn't willing to compromise or see reason. This isn't a simple matter of corruption or abusing tenants, Miller had physical evidence that could expose the sisters as magical beings. Phoebe might be able to persuade Leo into using that suggestion powder so he'll give up the videos, but that's relying on an outside resource. It doesn't attest to how she would handle the situation on her own without that type of easy assistance. To be fair, Cole also had other options available. Why didn't he just manipulate Miller's mind into agreeing with him and giving up the tape like he did to that one client or whoever on the phone? I'll chalk it up to inconsistency and the writer's lack of remembrance for that power. This decline in mental stability is being interpreted from a myopic viewpoint. Cole was under the influence of lord knows how many different demonic powers. He began to hallucinate and was frequently being confronted by adverse situations and characters, Edward "most hated man in San Francisco" Miller included. Paige's spell that tinkers with his emotional well-being while forcing him to directly feel Phoebe's residual love for him only exacerbated the situation. Phoebe and the sisters have the benefit of not being confronted with any consequences as a result of their actions because this show doesn't understand the concept of personal responsibility in regards to the protagonists. It was Paige who prevented Cole from leaving in the first place. Cole can't get away even when he wants to because the sisters always find some excuse to wrangle him back into the spotlight where he can be controlled or manipulated into doing wrong. Which is impossible, considering that Leo was already in medical school when the U.S. entered World War II. Does this mean that Piper dated and married a guy who was forever 18 years old? The youngest person to get into medical school in the states was 12 years old when he started. As crazy or implausible as it may sound, the precedent is there. Moreover, immortality isn't the same as eternal youth. It's possible he could have continued physically aging or his aging is far more gradual compared to the normal human span. That's looking for a rationally sound explanation to accommodate Leo's incredibly young age which is admittedly difficult to do. |
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