|
|
Post by BookShelfy91 on Feb 7, 2016 0:16:39 GMT -5
I am a firm believer in taking responsibility for your own actions. So, no it isn't Phoebe's fault he became the source, I think she had a spell on her by the Seer. I do blame the Seer, it was quite clearly her manipulative plan from the beginning. I don't think she counted on their love being as strong as it was, or for Phoebe to stand by Cole as his queen. The Source's essence is clearly at fault. I am torn in blaming Cole, to a certain point it almost seems like victim blaming to say he should have seen it coming? if that makes any sense. He obviously would have thought that the Seer removing the Hollow from his body would also remove the Source's essence. Which is a fair enough assumption, although he should have possibly suspected, being evil as she was it wouldn't be that easy or straight forward.
Shelfy
|
|
|
|
Post by sol on Feb 10, 2016 5:02:20 GMT -5
Cole made a choice, he wasn't forced
It happens to make a reckless choice, we can regret, try to correct it but never toss the blame on someone else unless we are about 5 years old
|
|
|
|
Post by Sadrick on Feb 10, 2016 5:50:34 GMT -5
If you mean he purposefully chose to take in the Hollow then I agree, yes. But we need to keep in mind that he did so while having the Seer's coercive whispers running through his head. She played upon his fear and desperation to protect the person most precious to him so he would be enticed into accepting this power which inadvertently lead to the absorption of the Source's powers. If you subscribe to the opinion that he "chose" to become the Source then I would still argue that he was compelled to do so since that power fed on his insecurities about being a powerless mortal who couldn't contribute much of anything to the cause -- the proverbial alcoholic who's swimming in whiskey.
|
|
|
|
Post by sol on Feb 11, 2016 10:31:22 GMT -5
If you mean he purposefully chose to take in the Hollow then I agree, yes. But we need to keep in mind that he did so while having the Seer's coercive whispers running through his head. She played upon his fear and desperation to protect the person most precious to him so he would be enticed into accepting this power which inadvertently lead to the absorption of the Source's powers. If you subscribe to the opinion that he "chose" to become the Source then I would still argue that he was compelled to do so since that power fed on his insecurities about being a powerless mortal who couldn't contribute much of anything to the cause -- the proverbial alcoholic who's swimming in whiskey. I agree, I think he made a great mistake thinking he'ld become totally human,this meant cutting a part of himself If he had read during his childhood Andersen's Little Mermaid tale he'ld understand it Nevertheless, with all the understanding of his case, it remains his fault, Cole'ld have had more confidence in the sisters and discuss with them what to do |
|
|
|
Post by lilchi7212 on Feb 11, 2016 11:20:20 GMT -5
If you mean he purposefully chose to take in the Hollow then I agree, yes. But we need to keep in mind that he did so while having the Seer's coercive whispers running through his head. She played upon his fear and desperation to protect the person most precious to him so he would be enticed into accepting this power which inadvertently lead to the absorption of the Source's powers. If you subscribe to the opinion that he "chose" to become the Source then I would still argue that he was compelled to do so since that power fed on his insecurities about being a powerless mortal who couldn't contribute much of anything to the cause -- the proverbial alcoholic who's swimming in whiskey. Nevertheless, with all the understanding of his case, it remains his fault, Cole'ld have had more confidence in the sisters and discuss with them what to do There wasn't any time plus there wasn't a guarantee that the spell would work. It was Phoebe's fault for not telling Cole first about her premonition instead she's goes to her sisters. |
|
|
|
Post by yinsoul on Feb 11, 2016 11:20:31 GMT -5
If you mean he purposefully chose to take in the Hollow then I agree, yes. But we need to keep in mind that he did so while having the Seer's coercive whispers running through his head. She played upon his fear and desperation to protect the person most precious to him so he would be enticed into accepting this power which inadvertently lead to the absorption of the Source's powers. If you subscribe to the opinion that he "chose" to become the Source then I would still argue that he was compelled to do so since that power fed on his insecurities about being a powerless mortal who couldn't contribute much of anything to the cause -- the proverbial alcoholic who's swimming in whiskey. I agree, I think he made a great mistake thinking he'ld become totally human,this meant cutting a part of himself If he had read during his childhood Andersen's Little Mermaid tale he'ld understand it Nevertheless, with all the understanding of his case, it remains his fault, Cole'ld have had more confidence in the sisters and discuss with them what to do More confidence in the sisters? A noble thought but by this time things were looking very bad. Two powers down, Leo was down, the Hollow was loose via the Source and he knew for a fact that pretty soon he would take a fireball for Phoebe, who might not live too long after that anyway. Even they didn't know what to do, and he was powerless and therefore just in the way, to be perfectly honest. I don't know what they would have discussed. I am pretty sure that he wasn't thinking about becoming more human or power anything else. Cole wanted to save the sisters, especially Phoebe, which is why I really can't stand how he was treated later. Yes, it was stupid of him to take a deal from a very pretty devil. It was an awful crisis and he was not thinking straight. But if he had not, the sisters would have died. By the time that he got back from the Seer's manipulation fest they were already under attack, with Piper sorely wounded. It was only the Source's shock as he realized precisely how he had been set up and Cole throwing fireballs at his face that gave the Halliwells time to finish their spell. I guess what I mean to point out is that I really don't know how else Cole could have handled things given timing and circumstance. It was a masterful trick by the Seer, even though I'm sure she certainly didn't enjoy the thought of being devoured by the Hollow eventually either, and probably had some backup in case the Source did succeed and was taken over himself. |
|
|
|
Post by sol on Feb 11, 2016 17:59:19 GMT -5
I think in this way also in the real life: I make my choices, I'll take responsibility for it
No one asked help to Cole, mainly to turn into the Source
Cole's intentions might be good, but he cheated Phoebe with a wedding, a pregnancy and the silence on what he had become, to be more precise the Source of all evil, a betrayal that could not get tolerance
|
|
|
|
Post by lilchi7212 on Feb 12, 2016 20:10:43 GMT -5
I think in this way also in the real life: I make my choices, I'll take responsibility for it No one asked help to Cole, mainly to turn into the Source Cole's intentions might be good, but he cheated Phoebe with a wedding, a pregnancy and the silence on what he had become, to be more precise the Source of all evil, a betrayal that could not get tolerance Wasn't him it was all the essence of the Source. |
|
Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?"
Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,920 
|
Post by Esmeralda on Feb 12, 2016 22:23:40 GMT -5
I am a firm believer in taking responsibility for your own actions. So, no it isn't Phoebe's fault he became the source, I think she had a spell on her by the Seer. I do blame the Seer, it was quite clearly her manipulative plan from the beginning. I don't think she counted on their love being as strong as it was, or for Phoebe to stand by Cole as his queen. The Source's essence is clearly at fault. I am torn in blaming Cole, to a certain point it almost seems like victim blaming to say he should have seen it coming? if that makes any sense. He obviously would have thought that the Seer removing the Hollow from his body would also remove the Source's essence. Which is a fair enough assumption, although he should have possibly suspected, being evil as she was it wouldn't be that easy or straight forward. Shelfy No, I think the Seer counted on the chemistry between them from Day One. I've always believed that her plan all along was to turn Cole into the Source and Phoebe as his Queen so they could conceive the Phoetus which the Seer would steal and raise as the most powerful and most evil Source the world has ever known with her as the power behind the throne. Everything she did once the old Source took in the Hollow seemed to be leading up to that. That's another reason I don't believe that Cole was possessed or took in the essence of the Source or anything like that - had he truly been possessed, there would be no chemistry between him and Phoebe and the Seer would never have gotten her dream of being pregnant with the Phoetus. She talked him (and some fans...) into *thinking* that he was possessed, so he didn't have to feel guilty about all of the horrible things he did as the Source, but if the Source was in control, not Cole, her plan would've failed. Of course, ironies of all ironies, the one thing she couldn't foresee was that just like the powers of the Demonic Wasteland drove Cole crazy, the powers of the Phoetus was too much for the Seer and caused her destruction. |
|
Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?"
Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,920
|
Post by Esmeralda on Feb 12, 2016 22:28:24 GMT -5
I think in this way also in the real life: I make my choices, I'll take responsibility for it No one asked help to Cole, mainly to turn into the Source Cole's intentions might be good, but he cheated Phoebe with a wedding, a pregnancy and the silence on what he had become, to be more precise the Source of all evil, a betrayal that could not get tolerance Wasn't him it was all the essence of the Source. No, it wasn't. The essence of the Source went with him to the Demonic Wasteland - that is obvious since it was *that* Source who we saw return in S8 - the Hollow only absorbs powers, not essences, and it was those powers that went into Cole. He was never possessed - he just gave into the powers when they went into him because he'd rather be evil and powerful than good and powerless. If that wasn't the case, he would've/should've told the sisters so they could take the powers/essence out of him. He never did. He didn't want to be good - he just wanted Phoebe. Everything he did and everything that happened to him was his own fault, just like everything she did and everything that happened to her was Phoebe's fault, even if Little Miss Itsnevermyfault could never admit that and had to find someone to blame, so she blamed Cole. |
|
|
|
Post by lilchi7212 on Feb 13, 2016 13:17:25 GMT -5
Wasn't him it was all the essence of the Source. No, it wasn't. The essence of the Source went with him to the Demonic Wasteland - that is obvious since it was *that* Source who we saw return in S8 - the Hollow only absorbs powers, not essences, and it was those powers that went into Cole. He was never possessed - he just gave into the powers when they went into him because he'd rather be evil and powerful than good and powerless. If that wasn't the case, he would've/should've told the sisters so they could take the powers/essence out of him. He never did. He didn't want to be good - he just wanted Phoebe. Everything he did and everything that happened to him was his own fault, just like everything she did and everything that happened to her was Phoebe's fault, even if Little Miss Itsnevermyfault could never admit that and had to find someone to blame, so she blamed Cole. Seem like in Three Faces of Phoebe he took in something more than just the powers of the Source. |
|
Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?"
Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,920
|
Post by Esmeralda on Feb 13, 2016 13:34:58 GMT -5
No, it wasn't. The essence of the Source went with him to the Demonic Wasteland - that is obvious since it was *that* Source who we saw return in S8 - the Hollow only absorbs powers, not essences, and it was those powers that went into Cole. He was never possessed - he just gave into the powers when they went into him because he'd rather be evil and powerful than good and powerless. If that wasn't the case, he would've/should've told the sisters so they could take the powers/essence out of him. He never did. He didn't want to be good - he just wanted Phoebe. Everything he did and everything that happened to him was his own fault, just like everything she did and everything that happened to her was Phoebe's fault, even if Little Miss Itsnevermyfault could never admit that and had to find someone to blame, so she blamed Cole. Seem like in Three Faces of Phoebe he took in something more than just the powers of the Source. Do you mean this: Source: charmedscripts.tv/three_faces_of_phoebe.htmThat's him fighting with the evil side of himself which is growing stronger as he gives in more to the powers of the Source and becomes more the Source, as proven by the fact that it's just a dream. But it's not the essence of the Source or the original Source - it's all Cole. He could've told Phoebe about it, let her help him fight it - but he didn't want to. Everything that happened was all his fault, not Phoebe's. |
|
|
|
Post by Sadrick on Feb 13, 2016 14:11:52 GMT -5
Wasn't him it was all the essence of the Source. No, it wasn't. The essence of the Source went with him to the Demonic Wasteland - that is obvious since it was *that* Source who we saw return in S8 - the Hollow only absorbs powers, not essences, and it was those powers that went into Cole. He was never possessed - he just gave into the powers when they went into him because he'd rather be evil and powerful than good and powerless. If that wasn't the case, he would've/should've told the sisters so they could take the powers/essence out of him. He never did. He didn't want to be good - he just wanted Phoebe. Everything he did and everything that happened to him was his own fault, just like everything she did and everything that happened to her was Phoebe's fault, even if Little Miss Itsnevermyfault could never admit that and had to find someone to blame, so she blamed Cole. You say that as if it were a simple acquiescence of wills and morality which he was almost enthused to receive. If he had absolutely no yearning to become good then his subconscience wouldn't be actively projecting this separation of personalities. By your own admission, it was as if he were suffering from dissociative personality disorder, implying that he couldn't bear to handle the suffering he inflicted onto others, which means that he must not be the heartless sociopath who single-mindedly only cares for himself and Phoebe that some people describe him as being. This hearkens back to what I said about his interaction with Phoebe in "Bride and Gloom". If he was truly just interested in having Phoebe to himself without the shackles of changing his way of his life then he would have shimmered out of that room with his love on his arm. Lord knows she probably wouldn't have objected given how callous she became towards her sisters and people in general as a result of Dantalian's spell. Then there's his gesture in "Death takes a Halliwell" when he stopped Prue from needlessly torturing the Seekers, and this was right after they had gotten done trying to kill him. I don't believe people give Cole enough credit. Him changing his ways wasn't a farce. He made a genuine effort to do better that extended past wanting to appease Phoebe. The man even sacrificed his long sought after father for her and that was the whole reason for going after the Charmed Ones in the first place which everyone always seems to forget because it would imply that the sisters and their binary approach to morality is flawed. |
|
|
|
Post by Chrisaholic on Feb 13, 2016 19:45:51 GMT -5
I agree with Sadrick. Cole was a complicated half demon who had a great reputation in the underworld but once he lost his demonic side, he felt lost. That made him vulnerable to whispers from the Seer, to take in the Source's power with the Hollow, to save Phoebe and her sisters. Still, he had given up his search for his father who he wanted to save from the Brotherhood if I remember correctly. Haven't seen this season for a long time, I have to admit. Sorry about that!  |
|
|
|
Post by lilchi7212 on Feb 14, 2016 16:47:40 GMT -5
Seem like in Three Faces of Phoebe he took in something more than just the powers of the Source. Do you mean this: Source: charmedscripts.tv/three_faces_of_phoebe.htmThat's him fighting with the evil side of himself which is growing stronger as he gives in more to the powers of the Source and becomes more the Source, as proven by the fact that it's just a dream. But it's not the essence of the Source or the original Source - it's all Cole. He could've told Phoebe about it, let her help him fight it - but he didn't want to. Everything that happened was all his fault, not Phoebe's. No it was one he was talking to the Seer |
|
Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?"
Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,920
|
Post by Esmeralda on Feb 14, 2016 17:13:42 GMT -5
Do you mean this one:
That's the Seer helping him think that it's the Source who's taken him over rather than him giving into the powers. As Cole wants the power more (while thinking that since it's the old Source taking him over that he's not responsible), he becomes more the Source while thinking that Cole remains good. He was always good at blaming Belthazor for anything he did - now he's blaming the Source when he *is* the Source, the way he *was* Belthazor.
Remember - you can never believe a word the Seer says - like Chris, she believes Ends Justify the Means, and her ends is having the Phoetus as the most powerful Source ever with her the power behind the throne, which would only happen if Cole has the powers of the Source and his bride is a Charmed One. If Cole was possessed, that would never happen.
|
|
|
|
Post by lilchi7212 on Feb 14, 2016 17:43:08 GMT -5
Do you mean this one: That's the Seer helping him think that it's the Source who's taken him over rather than him giving into the powers. As Cole wants the power more (while thinking that since it's the old Source taking him over that he's not responsible), he becomes more the Source while thinking that Cole remains good. He was always good at blaming Belthazor for anything he did - now he's blaming the Source when he *is* the Source, the way he *was* Belthazor. Remember - you can never believe a word the Seer says - like Chris, she believes Ends Justify the Means, and her ends is having the Phoetus as the most powerful Source ever with her the power behind the throne, which would only happen if Cole has the powers of the Source and his bride is a Charmed One. If Cole was possessed, that would never happen.O |
|
|
|
Post by lilchi7212 on Feb 14, 2016 17:54:13 GMT -5
Do you mean this one: That's the Seer helping him think that it's the Source who's taken him over rather than him giving into the powers. As Cole wants the power more (while thinking that since it's the old Source taking him over that he's not responsible), he becomes more the Source while thinking that Cole remains good. He was always good at blaming Belthazor for anything he did - now he's blaming the Source when he *is* the Source, the way he *was* Belthazor. Remember - you can never believe a word the Seer says - like Chris, she believes Ends Justify the Means, and her ends is having the Phoetus as the most powerful Source ever with her the power behind the throne, which would only happen if Cole has the powers of the Source and his bride is a Charmed One. If Cole was possessed, that would never happen.O Yeah I don't believe what you say about that at all |
|
Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?"
Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,920
|
Post by Esmeralda on Feb 14, 2016 18:25:26 GMT -5
Yeah I don't believe what you say about that at all That's okay. It's the fun of being fans - we can each look at things the way we want to. If you want to look at Cole through rose-colored glasses (which is funny since Paige was the only one to see him for what he really was), you can. If you can't admit that if the essence of the Source *wasn't* vanquished with the Source, the original Source would not have shown up - essence attached - in Season 8, that's fine. |
|
ljones
Whitelighter
Posts: 4,123
|
Post by ljones on Feb 15, 2016 1:10:42 GMT -5
Looking at Cole through rose-colored glasses?? Really?
This inability to admit that the Source had possessed Cole is becoming extremely disturbing. The evidence is there in the episode and in the episode's transcript. Yet, so many want to believe otherwise. What is going on? Is that some fans don't want to believe that the sisters were either too stupid or too bigoted to take the trouble to learn how Cole became the Source in the first place? They don't want to believe that the Halliwells had given in to their worst instincts and killed an individual who needed to be saved? Or that they can't deal with this complex and ambiguous situation? They want to turn a blind eye to what really happened . . . like Brad Kern and his writers?
If you're worried that being possessed by the Source had negated Cole's other crimes . . . don't. He had a lot of blood on his hands. But despite this, the Source's essence did take possession of his body in late Season 4. The transcripts and the episodes back this up.
What is going on?
|
|
