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Post by CharmedFaith on Nov 12, 2009 20:13:09 GMT -5
Shannen and Julian were still dating briefly after she was gone from the show.
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Post by Esmeralda on Nov 12, 2009 20:27:12 GMT -5
 Thanks, CharmedFaith. Hmmm....so maybe that *did* have something to do with Kern getting rid of Shannen. Hmmm...interesting. |
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Post by dylan345 on Nov 13, 2009 16:42:39 GMT -5
Well, as pointed out, both relationships were just brief ones, so it's hard to say if they were still going on at the time that the last episode was filmed. Also keep in mind that Shannen did NOT leave--she fully expected to be back for Season Four. Holly has made it very clear that Kern fired Shannen over the phone while she was out of the country filming a movie during the hiatus, and that she (Holly) is still very bitter about how it was handled. So Shannen and Julian's relationship had next-to-nothing to do with whether Shannen left or not, *unless* Alyssa talked Kern into firing Shannen due to the relationship between Shannen and "Cole", but I think *IF* she had anything to do with Shannen's firing, it had more to do with the fact that she thought that Shannen had more scenes and more lines than she did, and she thought that she'd be the one with the most if Shannen was gone. I hope that's true, because it would be hilarious if she went through all of that and then ended up playing second fiddle to Holly, despite having top billing. I meant if the characters of Prue and Cole had been put together, not Shannen and Julian. |
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Post by CharmedFaith on Nov 13, 2009 18:30:32 GMT -5
It is kind of funny that Shannen and Julian were filming Another Day during the time Shannen got the pink slip..
And I think if they had gotten Prue and Cole together, they probably wouldnt have fired her so surely and easily since then that would have been a very central storyline they would be getting rid of, and they would have to deciede to keep Cole in the show or write him out.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Nov 14, 2009 20:21:26 GMT -5
Well, as pointed out, both relationships were just brief ones, so it's hard to say if they were still going on at the time that the last episode was filmed. Also keep in mind that Shannen did NOT leave--she fully expected to be back for Season Four. Holly has made it very clear that Kern fired Shannen over the phone while she was out of the country filming a movie during the hiatus, and that she (Holly) is still very bitter about how it was handled. So Shannen and Julian's relationship had next-to-nothing to do with whether Shannen left or not, *unless* Alyssa talked Kern into firing Shannen due to the relationship between Shannen and "Cole", but I think *IF* she had anything to do with Shannen's firing, it had more to do with the fact that she thought that Shannen had more scenes and more lines than she did, and she thought that she'd be the one with the most if Shannen was gone. I hope that's true, because it would be hilarious if she went through all of that and then ended up playing second fiddle to Holly, despite having top billing. I meant if the characters of Prue and Cole had been put together, not Shannen and Julian. Whoops! Sorry for misunderstanding, although my misunderstanding has definitely taken this thread in a different, interesting direction. Had they put Prue and Cole together and if they were planning on having S4 follow the same plotline as it did, I doubt that they would've fired her, unless they figured a different way of getting back to the Cole-the-Source plotline, like if losing Prue had pushed Cole into becoming the Source (perhaps The Seer telling him that if he did, Prue would come back). Or perhaps they would've used Prue's death to bring Phoebe and Cole together instead (I think it's what Alyssa would've wanted). It would've been interesting to watch them grow close with the ghost of Prue between them, even if that ghost was never shown. Or perhaps they would've done the Paige/Cole relationship differently and eventually had those two get together. Imagine Piper and Phoebe's reaction to their new half-sister falling for their dead sister's boyfriend... It would've been a great way to concentrate on the sister-relationship and not the Cole-the Source relationship which killed both Cole's and Phoebe's characters. |
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Post by dylan345 on Nov 15, 2009 20:23:33 GMT -5
Now that you mention all the complications that might have happened if Prue died, maybe it would be better if they weren't together if they still got rid of Shannen before season four. Cole moving from one sister to the other is a little weird.
If Prue and Cole were together, and Prue survived into season four, that would have been really cool. Prue in season four would have been very fun to watch. Especially if the whole Cole-Source thing still happened. It would be very interesting to watch Prue fighting that battle between choosing good and evil, as she was always one of the ones that seemed the least likely to get caught up in something like that.
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Post by ljones on Nov 19, 2009 17:28:14 GMT -5
Remember Brendan Rowe and Bane Jessup?
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Post by dylan345 on Nov 19, 2009 18:24:20 GMT -5
I do, but Prue never became queen of the underworld.
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Post by Esmeralda on Nov 19, 2009 18:51:48 GMT -5
Exactly. Prue helped evil people turn good, something totally different. I can't remember her ever actually turning evil unless she was tricked, like in ""Ms. Hellfire" and "Bride and Gloom". Phoebe actually turned her back on her sisters and her heritage for Cole, the moment Phoebe stopped being my favorite of the sisters and the reason why I only own the DVDs for the first three seasons of Charmed.
I can't possibly see Prue or Piper or Paige ever doing that, even if they were the one who had fallen for Cole. Paige turned her back on her half-sisters for Brody, but she didn't turn evil for him as Phoebe did.
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Post by ljones on Nov 22, 2009 0:14:29 GMT -5
Let me bring up another episode . . . it's called "Death Takes a Halliwell". Remember the scene when Prue went postal over one of the Seekers near the end of the episode? What happened next? Cole had to stop her. Why? Because he saw that she was allowing her anger to commit murder, not save an innocent. Even if her intended victim was evil. God only knows what would have happened to Prue or her sisters if Cole had not stopped her.
May I bring up another episode? It's called "Awakened". In this episode, Prue wants to use magic to cure Piper. Phoebe tries to warn her that this might not be a good idea. But Prue wanted to use magic for personal gain in order to save a sister who was paying the consequences for committing a crime. And Prue eventually convinced Phoebe to help her with the spell. And because of their spell, a good number of people nearly died.
Yes, Prue has chosen the wrong path on several occasions. You might want to excuse both her and Phoebe for their spell in "Awakened" because they wanted to save Piper. But they were not on the side of righteousness or anything like that. Piper was paying the price for committing a crime. Phoebe and especially Prue wanted to prevent Piper for paying the consequences for their own selfish reasons. So did Leo in the end. Only Leo was the one who ended up being punished for his actions.
As for "Death Takes a Halliwell", Prue was acting on pure rage. And Cole was right to stop her.
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Post by Esmeralda on Nov 22, 2009 11:31:40 GMT -5
Here's the difference. Prue did all of that trying to save an innocent. She did it wrongly, yes, because she couldn't stop someone whose destiny it was to die, but that was her motive.
When Phoebe turned her back on her sisters and became the Queen of the Underworld and Paige turned her back on her half-sisters for Brody, they did it for selfish reasons--for themselves. That for me is the huge difference, something I can't see Prue doing. I can see her attempting to save Cole rather than turn her back on her sisters and become evil herself. Granted, like this, she might end up being tricked and end up doing something evil, but it would not be her intent, not the way that turning their backs on their sisters/half-sisters was Phoebe's and Paige's intent.
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Post by ljones on Nov 23, 2009 11:52:59 GMT -5
In "Death Takes a Halliwell", Prue was not trying to save an innocent. She was simply expressing her rage over her inability to save Inspector Reese, along with her anger over her mother, grandmother and Andy's deaths. Her beating of the Seeker was about her rage. It was not about saving innocents.
And in "Awakened", I understand that Prue wanted to save Piper. But Piper WAS NOT an innocent in that episode. She was on the verge of death, due to her own greed and willingness to break the law. And by using magic to save Piper, Prue was also acting for selfish reasons. The real villains in "Awakened" were the Halliwells . . . and no one else.
In the end, I came to dislike Phoebe very much. But when it comes to being selfish, her sisters can be just as bad as her. Except for Paige. I'm not that sure about her.
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Post by dylan345 on Nov 23, 2009 17:25:46 GMT -5
In "Death Takes a Halliwell", Prue was not trying to save an innocent. She was simply expressing her rage over her inability to save Inspector Reese, along with her anger over her mother, grandmother and Andy's deaths. Her beating of the Seeker was about her rage. It was not about saving innocents. And in "Awakened", I understand that Prue wanted to save Piper. But Piper WAS NOT an innocent in that episode. She was on the verge of death, due to her own greed and willingness to break the law. And by using magic to save Piper, Prue was also acting for selfish reasons. The real villains in "Awakened" were the Halliwells . . . and no one else. In the end, I came to dislike Phoebe very much. But when it comes to being selfish, her sisters can be just as bad as her. Except for Paige. I'm not that sure about her. In DTAH, Prue was dealing with the anger over her mother's death. I would hardly call beating up on a demon over something like that selfish, even if at the moment her focus wasn't on saving innocents. It doesn't come close to Phoebe turning her back on her family for evil. And in Awakened, I agree that Piper broke the law, but it isn't like she ordered the fruit in hopes she would get bitten by the fly traveling in the box. She didn't mean to get sick. She made a mistake. So I think she was an innocent. If Prue had tried to save Piper from jail time for her crime, then that would be selfish, and neither would be innocent. But she was sick. She had no idea that would happen. She imported the fruit for business, not to destroy her health. And when the sisters found out that because of their spell other people were getting sick, they reversed it, even though they knew Piper would probably die. That sounds pretty selfless to me. All sisters had their times of being selfish, but none did what Phoebe did when she left her family for pure evil. |
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Post by Esmeralda on Nov 23, 2009 19:29:45 GMT -5
Exactly. There's nothing in what they did in either of those episodes that leads me to believe that Prue or Piper would turn their backs on their sisters for evil, leading me to believe that both would've worked harder on turning Cole to the good (by finding out that he was possessed by The Source and trying to help him get "unpossessed") than to do what Phoebe did.
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Post by ljones on Nov 24, 2009 13:54:03 GMT -5
If beating up on that Seeker wasn't so wrong, why did Cole stop Prue? Why did Prue realize that what she was doing was wrong and stopped? Can you answer that?
I get the feeling that you're dismissing the incident, because Prue's victim was a demon. And yes, it was just as bad as Phoebe turning her back on the family. Because Phoebe's selfishness in "We're Off to See the Wizard" and Prue's rage in "Death Takes a Halliwell" were both equally dangerous moments that could have had serious repercussions for the Charmed Ones.
As for Prue's actions in "Awakened? They were selfish, along with Phoebe and especially Piper's.
She just made a mistake that can be easily dismissed? Because she purchased foreign-grown fruit that she damn well knew had never been inspected by U.S. Customs? You honestly think that is nothing but a minor mistake? Piper broke the law and was willing to endanger her customers with non-inspected fruit in order to save a buck. Her ass should have been in jail or P3 closed down for an act like that.
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Post by dylan345 on Nov 25, 2009 14:04:23 GMT -5
If beating up on that Seeker wasn't so wrong, why did Cole stop Prue? Why did Prue realize that what she was doing was wrong and stopped? Can you answer that? I get the feeling that you're dismissing the incident, because Prue's victim was a demon. And yes, it was just as bad as Phoebe turning her back on the family. Because Phoebe's selfishness in "We're Off to See the Wizard" and Prue's rage in "Death Takes a Halliwell" were both equally dangerous moments that could have had serious repercussions for the Charmed Ones. As for Prue's actions in "Awakened? They were selfish, along with Phoebe and especially Piper's. She just made a mistake that can be easily dismissed? Because she purchased foreign-grown fruit that she d**n well knew had never been inspected by U.S. Customs? You honestly think that is nothing but a minor mistake? Piper broke the law and was willing to endanger her customers with non-inspected fruit in order to save a buck. Her behind should have been in jail or P3 closed down for an act like that. Prue throwing a temper tantrum against a demon was not helping the situation, so Cole got her to stop. In Charmed, 99% of demons or those with dark histories are seen as evil. In another show, where most demons and similar things are given second chances to see if there is good in them, then I wouldn't want Prue to beat up on a demon. But this demon in particular threatened innocent people, which is why he is past the point of me caring about his well being. It is my opinion that Prue's behavior in DTAH and Phoebe's behavior in the Wizard episode were not equal. I don't know how Prue having a tantrum and Phoebe leaving her family match up, but if you think they do, then that's fine. You keep saying the sisters' actions in Awakened were selfish. I fail to understand that. They used personal gain to heal Piper until they found out the consequences for other patients in the hospital, and then they reversed their spell. If anyone was selfish, it was Leo, as he was the one who actually healed Piper. As for Piper's punishment, maybe her sickness was karma's way of teaching her a lesson. She said at the end of the episode something to the effect of how she would not import anything illegal anymore. I don't believe she needed a punishment in the form of jail time to realize her mistake. And I just can't take something like importing illegal fruit as seriously as you can. I personally would rather the police department spend their time going after the rapists and murderers rather than the illegal fruit importers. |
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Post by ghostrider on Nov 25, 2009 18:54:24 GMT -5
Posted by Dylan345 on Today at 2:04pm
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Thank you Dylan....I have wanted to jump in on this one, but decided to chill my jets and wait for cooler heads to step up to the plate. My dad was a trucker, hence a teamster, some of his constituents were long shore-men (need I say more?) My late brother was an under cover narc...yeah, your right...lets skip that one....Fruit? Heavens to Betsy, I put that right up there with the phone police. Now, aside from the silly stuff...I took the episode to be about a lesson learned that could be applied to something down the road considerably more serious than the consequences of pinching illegal fruits. In fact I viewed many of the stories that way. It was one of the things I enjoyed about Charmed. They were human and made mistakes, in and out of magic. Maybe it's just me, but I thought that was to be expected. Oh well.
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Post by Esmeralda on Nov 25, 2009 21:05:21 GMT -5
So did I. And when they learned something from the lesson that made them better women and better Charmed Ones (especially both...), those were among the episodes that I loved the most, which is why Awakened is one of my favorites.
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Post by ljones on Nov 26, 2009 2:39:00 GMT -5
I would prefer if the police go after the rapists, the murderers and THE ILLEGAL FRUIT IMPORTERS. Because all of them are dangerous to the public.
Jesus Christ! Piper could have killed a lot of people if she had not sampled that fruit herself. You don't buy fruit that had been illegally smuggled into the country from a foreign country. That's stupid and dangerous. Piper should have known better. But she didn't. Why? Because she was greedy.
Piper had turned her back on an innocent little girl in "Once Upon a Time", because she was pissed off at the Elders for interrupting her marriage to Leo. Prue had used her powers in anger at both her father and Andy.
They're human beings. They're capable of anything. There's no such thing as an individual who is basically good. Not even on "CHARMED".
Stop it. Please stop making excuses for them. That's all a good number of you have been doing. You think it's okay to make excuses for characters like the Halliwells because they're the so-called good guys. It's like you're deliberately blinding yourself to their potential for evil. They all have a potential to be evil or be monsters. This show has proved this so many times, I can barely keep count.
But because they're the main "heroes" of the stories, fans such as yourself go out of your way to make excuses for some of their worst behavior, because you can't accept the idea of any of them having the potential for great evil . . . except for Phoebe, because she fell in love with a demonic assassin.
I hate to say this, but I get so tired of TV viewers and moviegoers who deliberately blind themselves to the worst traits of certain fictional characters, because they want to view them a pure and good . . . and heroes with hardly any flaws. Jesus!
When Prue tried to beat that Seeker to death, she wasn't indulging in some minor temper tantrum, she was allowing her rage to get to her . . . and if Cole had not stopped her, she could have started down a much darker path. All because she couldn't keep her anger in check. This has always been one of Prue's worst faults.
Piper has no excuse for what she had done in "Awakened". Her greed got the best of her and she was willing to endanger the lives of her customers by serving them fruit that she knew had not been inspected by U.S. Customs. Her behind should have ended up in jail, P3 should have been closed down or she should have been heavily fined for her actions. Why did Leo lose his wings? Because he had prevented Piper from rightfully paying the price for her actions, due to his feelings for her. That's why Leo had lost his wings. That's why the Elders were not willing to save Piper. Because they knew she had done wrong.
Please . . . stop . . . making . . . excuses for them. By dumping all over Phoebe for her mistakes and pretending that Piper and Prue had never made mistakes, all you're doing is coming off as hypocrites.
Piper should have done more than learned a lesson. She should have paid a price for her actions. I like "Awakened" as well. But because she got off with no consequences by the end of the episode, the whole story left me feeling disgusted.
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Post by StoryGirl83 on Nov 26, 2009 22:57:06 GMT -5
I can't add to the actual debate that has spun off of the real one, but I do have two questions on the topic of Awakened.
1) Someone said that the reason Piper didn't have it go through inspections was that she wanted to save money. The impression I got (not that this justifies that action) was that the fruit would not have lasted long enough to go through inspections (and thus probably shouldn't have been in the US anyway). Am I remembering correctly?
2) Someone mentioned that she ate the fruit before any of her customers could eat any. That also doesn't match with what I recall. I thought that there was an insect that got imported with the fruit and it stung her (or bit her or something like that). Am I remembering correctly?
It has been a while since I watched this episode as unlike many of you it is one of those episodes I particularily dislike, so I could just be remembering wrong. I think part of it is my dislike of what happened to Dr. Williamson and this is where that started.
As I said, my questions probably aren't really that relevant, but I am curious since we are on the topic.
On the topic of Prue and Cole, though, I think it is possible that they might have worked better, or been worse. I don't know. I like their personalities together. It's fun seeing them together, arguing and so on.
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Thanks, CharmedFaith.
