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Post by dylan345 on Nov 27, 2009 16:09:43 GMT -5
Stop it. Please stop making excuses for them. That's all a good number of you have been doing. You think it's okay to make excuses for characters like the Halliwells because they're the so-called good guys. It's like you're deliberately blinding yourself to their potential for evil. They all have a potential to be evil or be monsters. This show has proved this so many times, I can barely keep count. But because they're the main "heroes" of the stories, fans such as yourself go out of your way to make excuses for some of their worst behavior, because you can't accept the idea of any of them having the potential for great evil . . . except for Phoebe, because she fell in love with a demonic assassin. I hate to say this, but I get so tired of TV viewers and moviegoers who deliberately blind themselves to the worst traits of certain fictional characters, because they want to view them a pure and good . . . and heroes with hardly any flaws. Jesus! When Prue tried to beat that Seeker to death, she wasn't indulging in some minor temper tantrum, she was allowing her rage to get to her . . . and if Cole had not stopped her, she could have started down a much darker path. All because she couldn't keep her anger in check. This has always been one of Prue's worst faults. Piper has no excuse for what she had done in "Awakened". Her greed got the best of her and she was willing to endanger the lives of her customers by serving them fruit that she knew had not been inspected by U.S. Customs. Her behind should have ended up in jail, P3 should have been closed down or she should have been heavily fined for her actions. Why did Leo lose his wings? Because he had prevented Piper from rightfully paying the price for her actions, due to his feelings for her. That's why Leo had lost his wings. That's why the Elders were not willing to save Piper. Because they knew she had done wrong. Please . . . stop . . . making . . . excuses for them. By dumping all over Phoebe for her mistakes and pretending that Piper and Prue had never made mistakes, all you're doing is coming off as hypocrites. You do not tell me to stop anything. Just because I disagree with what you are saying does not give you any right to tell me to stop doing anything at all. You are not in charge of running this website. It is MY OPINION that the sisters, as well as many other people in the world, are not perfect, but that doesn't make them evil either. I won't say I admired Prue for taking out her frustrations on the demon, but I won't use that one incident to declare her as past the point of being able to redeem herself for it. Humans, witches, everyone in the world makes mistakes, and no one is perfect. In no way is Prue above anyone else. But I can't help but forgive people sometimes. |
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Post by dylan345 on Nov 27, 2009 16:13:11 GMT -5
I would prefer if the police go after the rapists, the murderers and THE ILLEGAL FRUIT IMPORTERS. Because all of them are dangerous to the public. So if you were to be locked in a room with a either murderer, a rapist, or an illegal fruit importer, and you had the choice to pick one of those three, you would consider them all equally? |
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Post by ghostrider on Nov 27, 2009 16:23:38 GMT -5
I am in StoryGirl's corner when it comes to this episode. I found it disturbing, so I haven't re-watched it lately. The story line centering on Dr. Williamson was very upsetting to me, and I think was the only time I cried over a Charmed episode. So like SG I don't recalled a number of things on this one, but I do think she is correct regarding her statement below.
Posted by StoryGirl83 on Yesterday at 10:57pm
If the above is correct it puts a different spin on what could have happened. Insects are not easy to contained and the entire ship could have ended up contaminated. That nasty critter could have landed anywhere and killed many people. People who do not have a white-lighter at their disposal. In an odd sort of way it might have been a blessing that it was Piper that got sick. She lived and I would guess that the fruit patrol was notified of the problem so that is could be handled before it got out of control.
Posted by ljones on Yesterday at 2:39am
You are of course exactly right, and this would also include both you and me.
Prue throws a temper tantrum against a demon??? You should witness some of the ones I have dished out to a few humans!!!
I think that all of the sisters have been criticized by one member or another at some point in time, so I do not understand the above statement. As for being hypocritical are you telling me that your and those you align yourself with have never been?
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Post by ljones on Dec 3, 2009 18:35:57 GMT -5
This isn't about the sisters being criticized. This is about the sisters escaping the consequences of their more damaging acts. Piper should have faced the consequences of breaking Federal law by purchasing fruit that had not been inspected by Customs.
When I brought this up, many of you either made excuses for her, pretended that she had not done anything wrong or attacked me, as you have just done by hinting that I might be hypocritical.
Many fans tend to do this whenever the Halliwells' transgressions are discussed . . . except for Phoebe. And the reason for this is because Phoebe is rather unpopular with many fans. She's unpopular with me, as well. But she's not the only one who has committed some terrible acts.
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Post by ghostrider on Dec 3, 2009 19:56:58 GMT -5
Posted by ljones on Today at 6:35pm
Okay, I'll play......faced the consequences how? As I see it there are two avenues of approach here. 1. She pays for it with her life. Leo does not save her and she dies. End of show. 2. She does jail time, or maybe picks up garbage on the side of the road for a month or two. Very dull, no one tunes in. End of show.
You know LJones, you might find this surprising but I do not disagree with you as much as you might think I do. I honestly find you very interesting and marvel at some of the hard questions you pose to this group. What does amaze me, is that you often ask without contributing an alternative. So....if you were responsible for penning that which would be righteous, honorable, correct politically or other wise....how would you have handled this particular situation and kept the ball rolling so to speak?
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Post by Fourever Charmed on Dec 3, 2009 21:31:02 GMT -5
And when the sisters found out that because of their spell other people were getting sick, they reversed it, even though they knew Piper would probably die. That sounds pretty selfless to me. No, they didn't. Prue and Phoebe realized what was going on, but they - especially Prue - had no intention of reversing the spell: Piper was the one who realized what her sisters did was wrong. She talked them into getting and reversing the spell. Prue was hell bent on not reversing the spell to save Piper, even outright telling Piper that she would not use her powers to get it, despite knowing full well that it was personal gain and that it was killing innocents. Phoebe was doing the same, though (IMO) she seemed slightly more willing to bend to Piper's request than Prue, which is why I believe Prue jumped in to cut her off with the excuse that they didn't have a reversal, because she (in classic Prue fashion) wanted to remain in control of the situation and her decision to not reverse the spell. So no, they did not reverse it because of the innocents, they reversed it because their sister pleaded with them to do so. Yes, they could have refused her request to save her and that would have been the most selfish thing to do, but their motives involving reversing the spell were not as pure as you make them out to be. People do things for family that they would not otherwise do for strangers, but that doesn't make them selfless. It just makes them sympathetic to someone they love. Prue and Phoebe knew what they did was wrong, they didn't want to change it, and they did so only after going round and round with Piper about the issue. I saw them reversing their spell as agreeing to their sister's dying last wish, not as an act to reverse their wrong and save the innocents they'd endangered. I can't add to the actual debate that has spun off of the real one, but I do have two questions on the topic of Awakened. 1) Someone said that the reason Piper didn't have it go through inspections was that she wanted to save money. The impression I got (not that this justifies that action) was that the fruit would not have lasted long enough to go through inspections (and thus probably shouldn't have been in the US anyway). Am I remembering correctly? That's incorrect. Had Piper purchased the fruit through the legal channels, the fruit would have been placed in quarantine, thus killing off most any potentially lethal bugs (like the one that bit Piper) because they would not have lived through the quarantine period. By purchasing the fruit illegally, she got it right away and skipped the quarantine period. 2) Someone mentioned that she ate the fruit before any of her customers could eat any. That also doesn't match with what I recall. I thought that there was an insect that got imported with the fruit and it stung her (or bit her or something like that). Am I remembering correctly? An insect was imported with the fruit. She happened to open the crate with said insect and it bit her. However, if anyone else had opened up the crate instead of her, they probably would've been the ones to get bitten (and unlike Piper, who was saved by magic, probably would have died), which is why buying the fruit illegally was such a selfish and dangerous act. She was thinking of saving herself some money and time, not about the law (and why it was put in place - to protect people/innocents). |
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Post by Esmeralda on Dec 4, 2009 13:18:06 GMT -5
And unlike what happened so often in the later seasons, there were consequences for her error, and she and her sisters (but especially Piper) realized their mistakes, admitted it and fixed it, both by letting Piper die (and Leo suffered the consequences for bringing her back to life by losing his wings) and Piper getting rid of the fruit--not due to the fine but because she knew it could be dangerous.
It's the major differences between this and what got this discussion going--Phoebe the Queen of the Underworld. She never admitted her error-it was always Cole's fault.
It's why "Awakened" gave me plenty of respect for Piper and S4 and S5 took away all respect I'd had for my previous-favorite sister, part of the reason why the whole Cole-the-Source is one of my least-favorite storylines. Had that not been the start of turning Phoebs into PhoeME/Freebie/Miss Itsnevermyfault, it could've been one of my favorites.
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Post by dylan345 on Dec 8, 2009 11:51:04 GMT -5
No, they didn't. Prue and Phoebe realized what was going on, but they - especially Prue - had no intention of reversing the spell: Piper was the one who realized what her sisters did was wrong. She talked them into getting and reversing the spell. Prue was hell bent on not reversing the spell to save Piper, even outright telling Piper that she would not use her powers to get it, despite knowing full well that it was personal gain and that it was killing innocents. Phoebe was doing the same, though (IMO) she seemed slightly more willing to bend to Piper's request than Prue, which is why I believe Prue jumped in to cut her off with the excuse that they didn't have a reversal, because she (in classic Prue fashion) wanted to remain in control of the situation and her decision to not reverse the spell. So no, they did not reverse it because of the innocents, they reversed it because their sister pleaded with them to do so. Yes, they could have refused her request to save her and that would have been the most selfish thing to do, but their motives involving reversing the spell were not as pure as you make them out to be. People do things for family that they would not otherwise do for strangers, but that doesn't make them selfless. It just makes them sympathetic to someone they love. Prue and Phoebe knew what they did was wrong, they didn't want to change it, and they did so only after going round and round with Piper about the issue. I saw them reversing their spell as agreeing to their sister's dying last wish, not as an act to reverse their wrong and save the innocents they'd endangered. But they still reversed the spell. If I were in that position, I would fight to save my sister's life, just like Prue and Phoebe did. Despite their reasons for reversing the spell, I don't believe any of them ever wanted to harm the innocents either. They didn't say, "Let's save Piper and to hell with everyone else." I don't believe that letting other people die just to save Piper would have sat well with them at all. So even if the innocents may not have been the first thing on their minds, I believe that they, like most humans, would not want anything bad to happen to them and were probably elated at the end of the day that they managed to save everyone, Piper included. |
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Post by Esmeralda on Dec 8, 2009 12:22:25 GMT -5
And again, there's the difference.
Had this happened during S8 and say that it was Phoebe (the middle sister) who was dying, I truly believe that Miss Whinealot and PhoeME would've done everything they could to be sure that Phoebe was saved and to heck with any innocent who might get hurt in the mean time, the same way S1 Piper was willing to let Leo stay a whitelighter because it meant the next Daisy would be saved, but late S5 Piper nearly destroyed San Francisco because he had a higher destiny. Paige would've fought them and who hopefully would be the one who would've ended up convincing Piper that they'd have to let Phoebe die in order to save innocents, but I'm not sure if she'd succeed.
This difference between the Piper and Phoebe in the earlier seasons as compared to the latter seasons is why I ended up hating both of them so much.
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Post by ljones on Dec 8, 2009 12:55:24 GMT -5
You want to know why I don't share your feelings? This whole mess started, because Piper was greedy. She was greedy and was willing to risk the health of her customers by purchasing and serving fruit that she KNEW had not be inspected by the U.S. Customs. The only thing that saved her customers was the fact that Piper had sampled the fruit first and got sick. Piper can be a greedy and selfish woman. I believe this was emphasized in the S3 episode, "Sin Francisco".
Phoebe and especially Prue were willing to break a rule and use magic for personal gain - namely heal their dying sister, who was paying the price for her greed.
Every time I mention this, fans rush to the Halliwells' defense, because . . . why? Because they are the stars of the show. That's why. The only real villains in "Awakened" were the Charmed Ones. Their actions endangered a lot of people, whether they had intended to do so or not. And what really burns me about this episode is that in the end, the Halliwells failed to pay the price for their actions. Piper's life was not only saved by Leo, the Feds did not bother to permanently close P3, fine her or put her behind in jail for breaking the law. Prue and Phoebe didn't pay the price for abusing their powers to heal a sister who was a guilty lawbreaker. Leo did. And that is what pisses me off.
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Post by dylan345 on Dec 9, 2009 14:07:54 GMT -5
You want to know why I don't share your feelings? . Not really. You've already proven you can't let this issue go. |
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Post by ljones on Dec 9, 2009 14:16:51 GMT -5
You want to know why I don't share your feelings? . Not really. You've already proven you can't let this issue go. I don't care if you don't want to hear it. I'm going to state it over and over again. I'm getting sick and tired of fans making excuses for the Halliwells' worst actions, just as you're getting sick and tired of my posts. I would say that I'm sorry if you don't like the idea of the Charmed Ones committing a serious transgression and getting away with it. But I'm not. |
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Post by erikamarie on Dec 10, 2009 16:42:24 GMT -5
Charmed is the story of three ordinary sisters who discover that they are witches and agree to use their powers to help the innocent: they are not three saints,not three angels,not three bold heroines without fear,but ordinary women with flaws, worries, bills to pay, house to run,job to save
I love them because they are normal people I am not interessed in perfect women
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Post by Esmeralda on Dec 10, 2009 20:30:22 GMT -5
*nods* I can agree with you--that's what I liked, too, especially when they were three sisters who happened to be witches and not three demon-hunters who happened to live in the same Manor, as they were during "The Perils of Poor, Poor, Pitiful Piper" (From "Oh, My Goddess" to the end)
The difference is in the earlier seasons when they did something wrong, there were consequences and they learned from their mistakes. If they did the same mistakes in later years (specifically using magic for their own personal gain) there was no backlash or consequences as long as it was funny. That's when they were no longer real but parodies of themselves, which was when I didn't like them. This was specifically true during "The Perils of Poor, Poor, Pitiful Piper" which is why I prefer "Charmed".
But that's what *I* prefer. To each their own.
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Post by erikamarie on Dec 11, 2009 2:51:51 GMT -5
I think this derived from the damage of the Elders image, when they acquire human characteristics and become spiteful violent lunatics, they lose authority
Look at Something Wicca This Way Goes:the sisters are really willing to sacrifice themselves to stop Zankou but the Elders are not willing to risk their nose out from Up There even to heal Piper
There is a real risk of exposing the magic, but the Elders, so quick to want to get rid of baby Wyatt by the Cleaners,leave once the sisters to get off with it alone,to fake their own death is the only possible expedient to save magic
How could the sisters still accept rules written by entities so ambiguous,so coward,so unjust?
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Post by dylan345 on Dec 11, 2009 10:32:33 GMT -5
Not really. You've already proven you can't let this issue go. I don't care if you don't want to hear it. I'm going to state it over and over again. I'm getting sick and tired of fans making excuses for the Halliwells' worst actions, just as you're getting sick and tired of my posts. I would say that I'm sorry if you don't like the idea of the Charmed Ones committing a serious transgression and getting away with it. But I'm not. It's too bad you think I'm making excuses for them, when I've stated many other times in other threads how I feel a lot of their actions, mostly at later points in the show, were selfish and wrong. But I'm not going to get hung up on an action I feel was punished: Piper's sickness for her crime. In terms of karma it isn't very black and white, but I feel it fits. Another thing is that I truly enjoy the show and the characters 90% of the time, and am willing to forgive them. And just because I feel that Piper learned her lesson doesn't mean that what she did isn't illegal anymore. But I can't stay mad. It would be like if I got a speeding ticket: I got punished for it, and now I can move on. It doesn't mean that what I did wasn't bad anymore, but I'm not going to keep going back to it again and again to reiterate that it was wrong. Piper, in my opinion, was punished and learned her lesson. So I can move on from that now. |
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Post by ghostrider on Dec 11, 2009 14:20:59 GMT -5
Posted by dylan345 on Today at 10:32am
Bravo....A blessing onto your house this day!!
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Post by Esmeralda on Dec 11, 2009 16:03:57 GMT -5
Amen!
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Post by Fourever Charmed on Dec 11, 2009 17:02:23 GMT -5
If they did the same mistakes in later years (specifically using magic for their own personal gain) there was no backlash or consequences as long as it was funny. Magic for personal gain without consequences just because it's funny has been going on since season one. The sisters used their powers for personal gain a lot in the first three seasons, especially Prue (because her TK was easiest to use for PG in funny situations), and never got punished. True, we saw Piper freezing people so they wouldn't touch her pregnant belly in season six and she never got magical consequences because "it was funny." But how about Prue using her telekinesis to knock the balloons down and punish Missy over and over again at P3 during Piper's 10 Year Reunion? She also never suffered consequences because it was funny. (And what about that big punishing the guilty no-no? It didn't seem like anything big - to teach Missy a lesson for the years of torment of Piper and her continuing belittlement at the Reunion - but then again, neither did TKing dog poop onto Nathaniel Pratt's shoe to teach him a lesson about allowing his dog to poop in front of the Manor.) It seems like Prue definitely should've suffered a little cosmic backlash for that one. Prue also used her telekinesis to clean the house in season one, but never suffered consequences. Out of anger with her father, she also used them to shove Victor into the wall. Phoebe got premonitions of guys coming up to ask her out on dates and she got premonitions of having sex with guys in season one, all because it was funny. (Although in her defense, back in season one, she had no control over her visions unlike Prue and Piper.) There was also the cutesy scene where Prue was using her powers to move the vase back and forth on the fireplace mantle, because it was entertaining to see her use her powers, and of course Piper freezing Dan so she could check the box to make sure he wasn't giving her a ring, and the time she froze Lucas because she wanted to check to see if he really did carry pictures of his nieces in his wallet. Prue also used her powers to make the levitating mobile for Matthew in season two, as well as bathe him with the sink sprayer in the kitchen, and to get the diapers (and other baby supplies) down off the shelves at the store (which was pretty funny). Piper also used her powers to freeze Matthew when they were changing his diaper and he peed (I bet a lot of fans got a giggle out of that one) and all night long because he kept crying. She also froze the Wiccan practioner Marcy over and over, just because she was annoying and Piper and Phoebe didn't want to have to deal with her. "How long do you think we can keep doing this?" "Your power, your call." Oh, there was also Prue using her powers to throw the alarm clock out the window so it wouldn't wake Andy up as she was sneaking out of his apartment post them sleeping together, that was pretty hilarious. And speaking of Andy, how can we forget Prue using her powers to make the cake cart to trip Andy because she was furious with him for not telling her he had married (and divorced) Susan. (He could've seriously hurt himself because of that little attack.) So no, it was not just in the later seasons that magic was used for humor without consequences, they've been doing that since the first episode and even after they learned how to control their powers, they were still doing it. |
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Post by CharmedFaith on Dec 11, 2009 18:32:14 GMT -5
To me there is personal gain and then there is personal gain. If you get what I mean. Phoebe using her premintion of the lottery numbers to try and win a piece of the prize is big personal gain. Something that would totally benefit her in her own personal way had she won. So the numbers dissapeared.
Majority of the stuff said above, is just regular old personal gain, they are human beings with powers and of course they will use them at times for their own advantages but it was not something that would have a huge impact in their lives. So it was never made that big of a deal.
But back in Season1 when Phoebe would use her powers to see which guy she would be having sex with isnt as bad as Phoebe using her premintions in S6 or 7 to find out who her baby daddy would be. Having general sex isnt that big of a deal and it wouldnt have a major impact on her life if she had or hadnt had sex with that guy. But in Season6 looking for the guy that will help her bare a child...thats life changing in a major way.
Of course they should have made the term personal gain a lot more clearer than they did but no surprise they didnt.
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