Power Progression - Could it have been done better

[Deleted]

It would've made much more sense if Prue and Phoebe had been given each other's secondary powers instead (astral projection and levitation). Astral projection was fine for Prue, but it would've been more suited for Phoebe, because both premonition and astral projection are closely associated with psychics/mediums etc. Nevertheless, it didn't really bother me that the powers progressions weren't exact. So, even though Prue's AP was a bit more abstract, it was logical enough.

I mean, Prue's 'power' wasn't really 'telekinesis' anyway, nor was Phoebe's 'premonition/foresight'. Piper's power appeared the most fixed at first: 'stopping time': and hardest to think of progressions for. 

But anyway, here's what I think:

Prue could 'move things with her mind', which naturally became understood to be 'telekinesis', which I think works fine, because there's plenty you can do with it. It's kind of an umbrella term. So, after her 'Telekinesis', I think she should've gotten 'Levitation', which would've grown from the Hovering abilities she demonstrated in Season Three. I mean, why did they give Phoebe the levitating power, have her barely use it and then give Prue all the cool wire work? 

Eventually, she would progress from Hovering to Levitation to Flight, I think. Then, lastly, I'd have loved a power like we saw in Morality Bites, but perhaps not as explosive. I'd like her to have Shax-like energy blasts to begin with, which would grow until she could produce forcefields and eventually, do the big, massive destructive wave. It is in line with her 'movement' power too. She would be able to compress energy and 'move' it in the form of blast. To me, this is her progressing from being able to move other people/objects (Telekinesis), then herself (Levitation/Flight), then finally elements, well - surrounding energy and air. (Waving).

As for Phoebe, I always saw her power as a form of 'enhanced perception' as opposed to just 'seeing the future'. This would explain why she gained the ability to see the past as well as the future (that's retrocognition, not premonition, right?). I think Phoebe's power should've been described as 'clairvoyance' rather than 'premonition', because the former relates to a wider, more general perception, basically having a 'sixth sense'. She demonstrated this when she sensed the time shift in 'Deja vu All Over Again' too. So, astral projection seems a stronger progression from clairvoyance, because the user can literally leave the physical world in mind and spirit. Plus, she could send Astral-Phoebe into a fight and have her be intangible, which would work amazingly with her martial arts skills. Eventually, I'd have liked to see her learn to enter other people's bodies, possess them and access their powers (like she did to Jinny the Genie as a ghost). Lastly, I agree she should've gotten telepathy (rather than empathy), which is another ability associated when sixth sense/ESP etc. Only, they'd have to put a range on it and not make it too easy for her. In fact, maybe instead of reading thoughts, she would just have a incredibly potent intution, so she could predict people's next moves within seconds (like Kira).

Either way, I wouldn't want to see her be able to 'use' peoples powers (like Zachary from Magic School could). That's too much of a stretch, I'd rather she grew to kind of control people's minds just long enough to get them to not use their power. So, for instance, she could make a demon extinguish their fireball, or make them turn it back around on their fellow demons instead. So, Phoebe would've 'progressed' from being able to see the physical world in different times (Premonition/Retrocognition), then be able to physically leave her Earthly body and transcend the physical world, and her physical senses (Astral Projection) and finally, being able to interpret the thoughts or 'senses' of other beings and manipulate them (Telepathy/Intuition). I especially like the idea of Phoebe 'projecting' into someone's body and controlling their actions with her Telepathy. Also, of course, this would make her Astral Premonitions actually make sense. Even further, all these powers could allow her to dream-leap and cast illusions too. The possibilities are endless, really.  


And finally for Piper, who I really struggle with. To me, I'd rather her power had been described as, 'moving the flow/speed of time' not the terrible 'molecular' explanation they came up with. I get why they did it, but 'being able to manipulate molecules' just sounds like such a generic explanation, which you could use to rationalise her getting any power. After her Freezing/Immobilisation power, much like Prue, I wanted a power for her that effects her own body, rather than other people. So, Hyper Speed seemed like a natural evolution for her, she'd go from slowing down other people's own 'time and space' to speeding her own up. Or otherwise, they could even had explained it as Piper gaining more control over her freezing, instead of 'stopping' people, she could now 'slow them down', making it seem to others that she is moving at super speed. Thus, she is separating her own 'time and space' from those around her. She could start of not being able to 'hold' the power for long and grow to be able to control how 'slow' people would move, basically making it look like she was getting faster and faster. This would also stop her from becoming a comic book-like lightning flash that could kick and throw people around the room. Everybody moving slower than her would definitely give her more physical protection (as demons could not 'adjust' to it either) but I wouldn't want her to zip across roofs or 'run' across town in a heartbeat.

As for Piper's third power, I'm a bit unsure. I did think of 'Phasing/Intangibility' for a while, but if Phoebe could do this in her 'astral-mode' it would be too similar. I also thought of Cloning (she could bring forth a future version of herself to the present as a clone), but it is also too much like AP.

My top three rational progressions are Forcefields/Shielding, Phasing or Invisibility. Although, they may seem like a stretch, I thought that Piper basically controls speed and time over a very small, specific area/entity, so if she could take herself (and others) 'out of time', she would be unaffected by the physical world, either in the form of a spatial shield or by phasing. Also, if she had shielding powers, it would save the need to give Wyatt ridiculously strong powers as a foetus. Piper could've gained the shielding power when pregnant. Similarly, with invisibility, she can distort the flow of time around her until she becomes unseen to the naked eye.

In my mind, if she had Shielding, Prue could still have her 'Waving' power without them being too similar. Besides, it's a nice compliment, one destroys and the other protects. Alternatively, she could have Phasing, which would mean Phoebe's astral-self couldn't really do that much, or they would basically have the same power. But, even then, they would work slightly differently - Phoebe could be restricted to just Possession and Piper perhaps just letting objects 'phase' through her and not people. 

I think with these three powers each, the girls would've stayed in the their powerful, resourceful and detective roles that the OP mentions. I love that idea. Plus, with these powers, Prue would remain the aggressor and Piper the protector. Hyper Speed would be so useful when she's pregnant and has Wyatt. Plus, she never really suited being the demon-hunter. Also, if Phoebe had these three powers, they would metaphorically show that her strength comes from her mind, her intellect, as they are non-aggressive, 'mental' powers, but, if honed, could potentially do the most damage. Plus, as a Pysch student, she'd be in her element!

As for Paige, I liked her Telekinetic Orbing, but I wouldn't have tried to call it 'Telekinesis'. She could 'move things with her mind' like Prue, so it's really Apportation, just like her Orbing is Teleportation. I wouldn't have given her Healing, Sensing or Glamouring, they made it too boring for her. I'm not sure about her third power at all, it would need to be movement-based anyway.

[Melinda Halliwell]

For me Prue would've had Telekinesis, Levitation and then Teleporation.

Piper originally freezing things in slow mo then althogether and finally turning things to ice.

Phoebe Premonitions then Astral Projection and finally Empathy but emotion based not power based meaning no channeling or replicating those.

And Paige finally Telekinetic Orbing, Psychokinetic Orbing (moving objects or people not seen) and Orb Shielding after Wyatt loses that power permanently.

[Esmeralda]

*nods* If each had to have three powers (I'd still prefer each having just one - with Paige only getting Prue's form of TK, and Wyatt getting TK, Chris getting freezing and Prudence Melinda getting premonitions, with the other sisters' kids following the same pattern - and simply gaining better control and over larger distances, making them dependent on spells, potions and the Power of Three rather than individual powers), these make sense.

But I still like the OP's ideas of Mind, Body and Spirit best.

[Deleted]

Jul 10, 2014 7:10:20 GMT -5 Esmeralda said:

*nods* If each had to have three powers (I'd still prefer each having just one - with Paige only getting Prue's form of TK, and Wyatt getting TK, Chris getting freezing and Prudence Melinda getting premonitions, with the other sisters' kids following the same pattern - and simply gaining better control and over larger distances, making them dependent on spells, potions and the Power of Three rather than individual powers), these make sense.

But I still like the OP's ideas of Mind, Body and Spirit best.

I sometimes feel the same, although, admittedly, I did LOVE it when they got new powers. Don't you think it would've gotten a bit stale in Piper could only ever freeze things or Phoebe could only ever get premonitions? There's not that many ways these powers can grow except in range. 

Perhaps instead of giving them 'new' powers, they should've just explained that their single power was growing, instead of 'this is Telekinesis, this is Astral Projection' etc etc. It would've worked best for Prue (moving others > moving herself > moving energy), there would be no need to separate them into three different powers. In this instance, Piper could just have her freezing powers, which would progress into hyper speed (but it's really her 'slowing down' other people) and then Phoebe could maybe just have Clairvoyance and Telepathy. 

[cyma]

Jul 9, 2014 18:14:53 GMT -5 @deano said:

As for Phoebe, I always saw her power as a form of 'enhanced perception' as opposed to just 'seeing the future'. This would explain why she gained the ability to see the past as well as the future (that's retrocognition, not premonition, right?). I think Phoebe's power should've been described as 'clairvoyance' rather than 'premonition', because the former relates to a wider, more general perception, basically having a 'sixth sense'. She demonstrated this when she sensed the time shift in 'Deja vu All Over Again' too. So, astral projection seems a stronger progression from clairvoyance, because the user can literally leave the physical world in mind and spirit. Plus, she could send Astral-Phoebe into a fight and have her be intangible, which would work amazingly with her martial arts skills. Eventually, I'd have liked to see her learn to enter other people's bodies, possess them and access their powers (like she did to Jinny the Genie as a ghost). Lastly, I agree she should've gotten telepathy (rather than empathy), which is another ability associated when sixth sense/ESP etc. Only, they'd have to put a range on it and not make it too easy for her. In fact, maybe instead of reading thoughts, she would just have a incredibly potent intution, so she could predict people's next moves within seconds (like Kira).

Either way, I wouldn't want to see her be able to 'use' peoples powers (like Zachary from Magic School could). That's too much of a stretch, I'd rather she grew to kind of control people's minds just long enough to get them to not use their power. So, for instance, she could make a demon extinguish their fireball, or make them turn it back around on their fellow demons instead. So, Phoebe would've 'progressed' from being able to see the physical world in different times (Premonition/Retrocognition), then be able to physically leave her Earthly body and transcend the physical world, and her physical senses (Astral Projection) and finally, being able to interpret the thoughts or 'senses' of other beings and manipulate them (Telepathy/Intuition). I especially like the idea of Phoebe 'projecting' into someone's body and controlling their actions with her Telepathy. Also, of course, this would make her Astral Premonitions actually make sense. Even further, all these powers could allow her to dream-leap and cast illusions too. The possibilities are endless, really.  

I love the possessing and being able to control people advancement for Phoebe's powers. If she's doing that, then through other people, she's using their powers. Not using other people's powers as if they belonged to her. Also if she has the power to copy powers through empathy, it's fair she should also get weakness too like that warlock who wanted to get whitelighter powers to kill the Elders.

[Deleted]

Thanks cyma, I like that Phoebe's powers could have so many possibilities. Again because it shows how strength comes from intelligence. I think they totally messed up her empathic powers. Like, when she first used them against Valkyrie-Piper, first she 'resisted' her telekinesis, which was fine, but then she could suddenly use her telekinesis as well. Isn't that supposed to be a telepathic ability? Ah, I don't know. It was a total mess.




 

[cyma]

Jul 10, 2014 18:10:14 GMT -5 @deano said:

Thanks cyma, I like that Phoebe's powers could have so many possibilities. Again because it shows how strength comes from intelligence. I think they totally messed up her empathic powers. Like, when she first used them against Valkyrie-Piper, first she 'resisted' her telekinesis, which was fine, but then she could suddenly use her telekinesis as well. Isn't that supposed to be a telepathic ability? Ah, I don't know. It was a total mess.




 

If the objective was to make Piper remember who she was, Phoebe's empathy should've done that. Not Paige's spell used on Cole. Why use a feelings-based spell when you got an empath around? Paige should've kept Piper distracted with her own powers while Phoebe could get close enough to touch Piper and make her remember. I imagine a scene similar to what we saw with Phoebe and Cal Greene, except here with Piper, Phoebe makes her remember everything good...and hopefully not fry her brain in the process. I would've also liked it if Phoebe realized she received the same power she killed Cal Greene with and be fearful of its effects, rather that happily announcing I'm an empath.

[Esmeralda]

Jul 10, 2014 10:09:06 GMT -5 @deano said:

Jul 10, 2014 7:10:20 GMT -5 Esmeralda said:

*nods* If each had to have three powers (I'd still prefer each having just one - with Paige only getting Prue's form of TK, and Wyatt getting TK, Chris getting freezing and Prudence Melinda getting premonitions, with the other sisters' kids following the same pattern - and simply gaining better control and over larger distances, making them dependent on spells, potions and the Power of Three rather than individual powers), these make sense.

But I still like the OP's ideas of Mind, Body and Spirit best.

I sometimes feel the same, although, admittedly, I did LOVE it when they got new powers. Don't you think it would've gotten a bit stale in Piper could only ever freeze things or Phoebe could only ever get premonitions? There's not that many ways these powers can grow except in range. 

But that's the only way they need to grow. And, no, it wouldn't become stale, not if you had good writers. My favorite person-with-powers - Superman - never gained a single power in all the years he had them and he never became stale. Perhaps you're thinking that if they had different powers, then those powers wouldn't become stale, since you don't mention Prue's TK. Typical that most fans like offensive powers more than powers that help the Charmed Ones discover who they're supposed to help. But that's not surprising, since most fans like the battles between the Charmed Ones and the demons (I call it "Buffy Lite" and Charmed could never do it as well as Buffy did, because that's not what Charmed was supposed to be) more than "Charmed Meets Touched by an Angel", which is when I loved Charmed most - when they're three sisters who happen to be witches, not three demon-hunters who happen to live in the same house. If it had stuck to that, then the original would be the only ones needed, with Phoebe's premonitions as the most important one. If Buffy hadn't jumped ship from TheWB to UPN between Charmed's Season Three and Four, Charmed probably would've only lasted three seasons, but it would've been my favorite show, since my favorite female character, Phoebs, and my favorite male character, Leo, never would've been ruined, to the point that they became my least-favorite male and female characters on the show.
,
But then I've long since accepted the fact that when it comes to Charmed, I'm usually in the minority, so what I want is not going to happen except in my fantasies.

Perhaps instead of giving them 'new' powers, they should've just explained that their single power was growing, instead of 'this is Telekinesis, this is Astral Projection' etc etc. It would've worked best for Prue (moving others > moving herself > moving energy), there would be no need to separate them into three different powers. In this instance, Piper could just have her freezing powers, which would progress into hyper speed (but it's really her 'slowing down' other people) and then Phoebe could maybe just have Clairvoyance and Telepathy. 

AH! Now those I can *definitely* agree with. It's why I prefer them just calling their powers "the power to move things with their mind", "the power to freeze time (and I'll accept the power to freeze molecules, since that's what it actually was, almost from the start)" and "the power to see the future" - as soon as you put a name to it, you constrict it and then make it almost necessary to come up with different powers, when I just find that lazy writing.

[Deleted]

I see your points, Es, although I disagree to some extent, I'm afraid. I think the writers would've got stuck in the Phoebe gets a vision > Phoebe kicks the demon > Piper freezes the demon > Prue throws the demon combo. New powers make them actually appear to be growing stronger. Superman, on the other hand, never need to get stronger, he was already 'super'.

I actually liked Prue's powers the least out of the three sisters, because Telekinesis is an over-used power in supernatural fiction. I didn't mention her powers because I think there's a lot more scope to develop 'moving things with the mind' than there is for 'stopping time' and 'seeing the future'. This is why I would describe Piper's powers as 'manipulating the speed of time' and Phoebe's as 'clairvoyance' or 'enhanced perception'. I agree that new powers with tenuous links to the original abilities were unneccesary. I mean, Prue could've learnt to levitate, after she began her amped-up, telekinetic jumps and flips, without it needing to be called 'Levitation'. Also, if Piper had got Hyper Speed, they could've called it her gaining control over slowing down time, as well as stopping it, which would make it look like she was moving at super speed. I don't know how Phoebe's 'seeing the future' could grow to be honest, probably just longer and more vivid visions, and a heightened intuition. I just think to be 'the most powerful witches in the world', they needed some kick! and that was the direction the show was always heading in.

How would YOU progress their powers throughout the series then, just out of interest?

I have to admit I liked the Buffy years (Season 3 and 4) but I did appreciate the mix with the Craft (Season 1) and Season 2 (Practical Magic). It was only really the Sabrina the Teenage/Bewitched years that I didn't go for (Season 5-8). I think the show worked because it had this mix, it was so multi-genre, but it totally lost the plot after Season 4, and just sunk to new lows when innocents didn't even feature anymore (Season 6-8). I particularly detested the 'mythology' attempts e.g. Titans, Leprechauns, Fairies, Valkyries, Nymphs. They were all awful episodes.  

[Esmeralda]

Jul 11, 2014 12:17:05 GMT -5 @deano said:

I see your points, Es, although I disagree to some extent, I'm afraid. I think the writers would've got stuck in the Phoebe gets a vision > Phoebe kicks the demon > Piper freezes the demon > Prue throws the demon combo. New powers make them actually appear to be growing stronger. Superman, on the other hand, never need to get stronger, he was already 'super'.

But they were supposed to be the strongest witches ever - NOT due to individual powers, but due to the Power of Three. Thanks to the Power of Three, there was *never* a need for anything else. Yes, handling the bad guy might have gotten boring, but the show around the bad guys could've each been different, like in Touched by an Angel and other such shows. I would have much preferred if it had become a show where the normal parts of their life (with Leo staying gone after "Love Hurts" and Piper mourning him in Season Two, and meeting Dan in Season Three and eventually marrying him, including having normal, non-magical children, since the one who bitched about wanting a normal life to marry someone who wasn't normal never made sense unless Leo clipped his wings for her as the ultimate wedding present, and never having the other sisters fall in love with anyone else who was magical - Cole included - but continue the Warren tradition of finding and marrying someone non-magical, who could help them have a semi-normal life) was the most important part, but in the midst of that normal life, along comes a premonition of someone who needs help...with the perp being female as often as male and non-magical as often as magical.

As I said, I doubt if anyone else would've enjoyed that version of Charmed, so it only would've lasted two or three years, but it would've been my favorite show.

How would YOU progress their powers throughout the series then, just out of interest?

I think you can already guess - only go three or four seasons and progress only in control and distance, like in Morality Bites - no one gets completely-unnecessary extra powers and Paige (and other witchlighters) never exist.

Or if you HAD to have extra powers, be like what I quoted earlier:

Jan 10, 2011 20:06:26 GMT -5 Esmeralda said:

Saw this on another site and found it *very* interesting:

I'm not a fan of the introduction of new powers in season 2. But only because it seemed completely nonsensical and doesn't feel like a true progression of their individual magic.

I like to think of the Charmed Ones as Prue symbolizing the Body with the power to move physical objects, Phoebe the Mind due to the power of seeing the future and Piper the Spirit in the way she can freeze the flow of time.

I think Prue should have gained the power of Levitation as an extension of her Telekinesis power. In the sense that if she can move things with her mind why can't she with a little bit of concentration be able to levitate objects. It seems her Telekinesis which is channeled through anger is unstable resulting in it being a powerful force, that if she was to have a peaceful mind then she should move object with some grace. She should also like in Morality Bites be able to use a greater force of Telekinesis.

Then with Phoebe, I think she should have been the one to inherit Astral Projection instead of Prue. Since her power is like a psychic, then her progressed power should be psychic in nature. Due to being a Psychology student and having an interesting in things like meditate, she should have been able to learn how to separate her mind from her body. In the show she develops "Astral Premonition", so it would make sense if she knew Astral Projection.

And not only that, instead of developing her power of Empathy, she should have had the ability of Telepathy, the ability to read minds and emotion just without being able to mimic powers. Though reading minds could be a abuse of power, she should be only able to read minds when she touches someone, like how she gets Premonitions from touching something. It would also explain how in Morality Bites she kills a man by frying his brain, that it was her abusing her Telepathy powers by frying his mind. She should also have an ability to Sense Evil to complement Telepathy.

Then with Piper she should never have learned how to speed up Molecules through explosions. To me that is a demonic power, there is no difference from exploding things than there is of generating energy balls. Instead I think she should have gained the ability to freeze all of time like in Morality Bites. And in The Witch is Back where she could slow things into Slow Motion.

Her second power should have been the ability to walk through solid objects with the power of Intangibility, by reverberating molecules of herself and solid objects. Just like how she can stop a bullet from moving, she should be able to let a bullet go through her like a ghost (and like Shadowcat from X-Men).

And instead of exploding things and catching things on fire, she should be able to use Cryokinesis. Like how Prue's past self could in Pardon My Past. We have seen Piper literally freeze things when cooking and when turned Evil she turned a woman into an ice statue, that with some practice she should be able to freeze the air to a chill. Cryokinesis is a power that is in the line of the Power of Three, so it makes sense that it should manifest in one of them.

So to sum it up...

Prue - Telekinesis, Levitation
Phoebe - Premonition, Astral Projection, Telepathy, Sense Evil
Piper - Powers over Time, Cryokinesis, Intangibility

To me that set up is a bit more balanced than what happened on the show. It makes Prue the 'powerful' witch, Phoebe the 'detective' witch and Piper the 'resourceful' witch.

And if Paige showed up, have EXACTLY what Prue has, with no whitelighter powers (since she shouldn't get any of those until she earns her own wings - after her death - ditto for Wyatt and Chris) or whitelighter-influenced.

Again, most fans disagree with me, but that's the fun of being fans - when everyone agrees, threads on message boards are very short. When people can disagree but accept that the other person's opinions (and all of this is stating opinions, not stating facts) are just as valid as their own - that's when message boards are the most fun.

[Deleted]

Jul 11, 2014 13:38:40 GMT -5 Esmeralda said:

But they were supposed to be the strongest witches ever - NOT due to individual powers, but due to the Power of Three. Thanks to the Power of Three, there was *never* a need for anything else. Yes, handling the bad guy might have gotten boring, but the show around the bad guys could've each been different, like in Touched by an Angel and other such shows. I would have much preferred if it had become a show where the normal parts of their life (with Leo staying gone after "Love Hurts" and Piper mourning him in Season Two, and meeting Dan in Season Three and eventually marrying him, including having normal, non-magical children, since the one who bitched about wanting a normal life to marry someone who wasn't normal never made sense unless Leo clipped his wings for her as the ultimate wedding present, and never having the other sisters fall in love with anyone else who was magical - Cole included - but continue the Warren tradition of finding and marrying someone non-magical, who could help them have a semi-normal life) was the most important part, but in the midst of that normal life, along comes a premonition of someone who needs help...with the perp being female as often as male and non-magical as often as magical.

As I said, I doubt if anyone else would've enjoyed that version of Charmed, so it only would've lasted two or three years, but it would've been my favorite show.

Well, that's debatable. Yes, the Power of Three is their collective strength and the real reason why they are feared but, in my opinion, they needed to be powerful witches individually as well, more so than their mother and grandmother, to be 'charmed', otherwise they could just be any three witches with one killer, collective power. The Triad, their evil equivalent, were all powerful demons in their own right but never more so than they were together. Personally, I wish the show's writers had gone into more detail of The Power of Three and just how strong it made the sisters. They kind of implied or touched upon it, like in Sense and Sensibility, during which they realised they had a strong, almost telepathic, collective intuition.

If this had been the case from the start, they maybe wouldn't have needed new powers. When all three sisters were present, the PO3 could've made them highly resistant to energy/fireballs, more physically adept, less phased by physical injury etc. And whenever one sister was not there, this would weaken, or if they were growing apart, the same thing. This would've kept the focus on the sisterhood.

That's totally fine if you preferred the non-Buffy years. Like I say, I enjoyed the mix. I too would've easily settled for three/four seasons, and have the death of the Source, Cole and Seer be the end. Killing the Source was the natural end to the story, after which the sisters became preoccupied with their men and the children, and behaved like three housemates, rather than sisters. I would only possibly have liked a Season 5, purely for a Prue return, and have the series end with Melinda's (not Wyatt's) birth. The Big Bads from Season 5-8 were all unnecessary, with the Avatars and Zankou being the only decent attempts. Others, such as the Titans, were laughable. 

I think you can already guess - only go three or four seasons and progress only in control and distance, like in Morality Bites - no one gets completely-unnecessary extra powers and Paige (and other witchlighters) never exist.

And if Paige showed up, have EXACTLY what Prue has, with no whitelighter powers (since she shouldn't get any of those until she earns her own wings - after her death - ditto for Wyatt and Chris) or whitelighter-influenced.

Again, most fans disagree with me, but that's the fun of being fans - when everyone agrees, threads on message boards are very short. When people can disagree but accept that the other person's opinions (and all of this is stating opinions, not stating facts) are just as valid as their own - that's when message boards are the most fun

Would you have liked Prue to have her 'advanced telekinesis' power from MB then? My problem is was this actually a 'new' power or not. Also, what exactly was the power that Phoebe used to kill Cal Greene, was that 'new' as well. Piper was the only one whose Piper wasn't shown to be different from her original ability, just stronger. 

I think I agree with your witchlighter comment. I wasn't so bothered by Paige's 'telekinetic orbing' but I wished it had not been orb-based. She could've gotten teleportation and whatever the non-orbing version of TK Orbing is called. This way she'd be just a witch, and be similar to Prue but not the exact same. I thought witchlighters getting the power of heal, cloak, sense and glamour was ridiculous. Those powers were supposed to be Elder-granted, not inheritable gifts.

[Esmeralda]

Jul 13, 2014 11:15:10 GMT -5 @deano said:

Jul 11, 2014 13:38:40 GMT -5 Esmeralda said:

But they were supposed to be the strongest witches ever - NOT due to individual powers, but due to the Power of Three. Thanks to the Power of Three, there was *never* a need for anything else. Yes, handling the bad guy might have gotten boring, but the show around the bad guys could've each been different, like in Touched by an Angel and other such shows. I would have much preferred if it had become a show where the normal parts of their life (with Leo staying gone after "Love Hurts" and Piper mourning him in Season Two, and meeting Dan in Season Three and eventually marrying him, including having normal, non-magical children, since the one who bitched about wanting a normal life to marry someone who wasn't normal never made sense unless Leo clipped his wings for her as the ultimate wedding present, and never having the other sisters fall in love with anyone else who was magical - Cole included - but continue the Warren tradition of finding and marrying someone non-magical, who could help them have a semi-normal life) was the most important part, but in the midst of that normal life, along comes a premonition of someone who needs help...with the perp being female as often as male and non-magical as often as magical.

As I said, I doubt if anyone else would've enjoyed that version of Charmed, so it only would've lasted two or three years, but it would've been my favorite show.

Well, that's debatable. Yes, the Power of Three is their collective strength and the real reason why they are feared but, in my opinion, they needed to be powerful witches individually as well, more so than their mother and grandmother, to be 'charmed', otherwise they could just be any three witches with one killer, collective power. The Triad, their evil equivalent, were all powerful demons in their own right but never more so than they were together. Personally, I wish the show's writers had gone into more detail of The Power of Three and just how strong it made the sisters. They kind of implied or touched upon it, like in Sense and Sensibility, during which they realised they had a strong, almost telepathic, collective intuition. If this had been the case from the start, they maybe wouldn't have needed new powers. When all three sisters were present, the PO3 could've made them highly resistant to energy/fireballs, more physically adept, less phased by physical injury etc. And whenever one sister was not there, this would weaken, or if they were growing apart, the same thing. This would've kept the focus on the sisterhood.

Oh, yes, I agree with you totally on this. Perhaps this is what was screwed up from the start - what exactly was the Power of Three? And perhaps that's something that could make the reboot (if it's ever made...) better than the original - just by fixing it by doing something like what you suggest.

That's totally fine if you preferred the non-Buffy years. Like I say, I enjoyed the mix. I too would've easily settled for three/four seasons, and have the death of the Source, Cole and Seer be the end. Killing the Source was the natural end to the story, after which the sisters became preoccupied with their men and the children, and behaved like three housemates, rather than sisters. I would only possibly have liked a Season 5, purely for a Prue return

That, unfortunately, was impossible, thanks to the way that Shannen Doherty was fired. If indeed Season Five could've included Prue's return WITHOUT her taking away from making her three sisters the most important part of the series and their sisterhood, I'd agree.

and have the series end with Melinda's (not Wyatt's) birth.

You mean Prudence Melinda. That's what they were going to name Wyatt if she was a girl. She wouldn't be the same girl as the one in Morality Bites. And I agree totally that that, especially if there was a way of proving that Prudence Melinda was the reincarnation of her aunt, letting Prue be part of the ending that way.

The Big Bads from Season 5-8 were all unnecessary, with the Avatars and Zankou being the only decent attempts. Others, such as the Titans, were laughable.

Agreed totally. Had they made the final Big Bads the sisters themselves (not evil versions, but the sisters as they were from S6-8) with it being all about them finding out how horrible they had become and finding their way back to the proper path, then I could've tolerated S6-8 (I'm not as against S5 as most fans, especially if Cole had remained in Season 4 where he belonged and the Demonic Wasteland never existed - that when someone was vanquished, they no longer existed and could not come back). I felt the show needed the lightness of S5 after the horrible unCharmedlike darkness of S3 and S4 - but again, I'm usually in the minority regarding that. I much prefer the non-Cole-parts of S5 over S3 and S4, and had they skipped the Cole parts and gone straight to Piper and Leo having a baby for the last season (Season Three, so including Prue), that would've been fine with me.  For me, Cole as a half-breed was as bad as witchlighters.

I think you can already guess - only go three or four seasons and progress only in control and distance, like in Morality Bites - no one gets completely-unnecessary extra powers and Paige (and other witchlighters) never exist.

And if Paige showed up, have EXACTLY what Prue has, with no whitelighter powers (since she shouldn't get any of those until she earns her own wings - after her death - ditto for Wyatt and Chris) or whitelighter-influenced.

Again, most fans disagree with me, but that's the fun of being fans - when everyone agrees, threads on message boards are very short. When people can disagree but accept that the other person's opinions (and all of this is stating opinions, not stating facts) are just as valid as their own - that's when message boards are the most fun

Would you have liked Prue to have her 'advanced telekinesis' power from MB then? My problem is was this actually a 'new' power or not.

Of course it wasn't a new power - it was an advancement of her being able to move things with her mind, just like Piper's.  It's back to that's what happens when you try to name powers.

Also, what exactly was the power that Phoebe used to kill Cal Greene, was that 'new' as well. Piper was the only one whose Piper wasn't shown to be different from her original ability, just stronger. 

It was an evil advancement of her power, one I totally disagree with. I do like the way the comics explain it, where it's using her empathy to send his hatred back to him, but don't feel she should've ever gotten it - that whole episode would've been much better had Prue been the one who killed with her TK or if the episode happened as the series finale in S8 and Piper used her explosions to get rid of a very annoying Billie (leaving Christy totally out of the equation) so Billie was never evil, just annoying... But again, since the sisters in "Morality Bites" were evil, Phoebe's power had been twisted. And because I would *not* want the sisters evil, I wouldn't want their powers twisted.

I think I agree with your witchlighter comment. I wasn't so bothered by Paige's 'telekinetic orbing' but I wished it had not been orb-based. She could've gotten teleportation and whatever the non-orbing version of TK Orbing is called. This way she'd be just a witch, and be similar to Prue but not the exact same. I thought witchlighters getting the power of heal, cloak, sense and glamour was ridiculous. Those powers were supposed to be Elder-granted, not inheritable gifts.

Exactly, exactly, exactly correct, but you'll get a lot of disagreement from most fans who think they should be inheritable, the same way they think that Paige's kids would only be 1/4 whitelighter while Piper's would be 1/2 whitelighter, making Piper's kids more powerful, when they totally forget that if this was the case, the sisters, the Charmed Ones, the most powerful witches ever, were less than 1/256th witch, since although Warren women did *not* keep their maiden names (right, Penny Johnson Halliwell???), they *did* marry non-magical men like Victor - the best way to have a semi-normal life. The Elders letting Piper and Leo marry just because the Charmed Ones had saved their asses was *such* a mistake, part of why I don't like S3.

[Deleted]

Jul 13, 2014 13:38:54 GMT -5 Esmeralda said:

Oh, yes, I agree with you totally on this. Perhaps this is what was screwed up from the start - what exactly was the Power of Three? And perhaps that's something that could make the reboot (if it's ever made...) better than the original - just by fixing it by doing something like what you suggest.

I know. All the things that were implied about the Power of Three should've been confirmed. Basically, all the stuff the fans came up with, the high resistance etc. We didn't even really know where the PO3 comes from. I agree, if the reboot happens, I hope they rectify this. 

That, unfortunately, was impossible, thanks to the way that Shannen Doherty was fired. If indeed Season Five could've included Prue's return WITHOUT her taking away from making her three sisters the most important part of the series and their sisterhood, I'd agree.

I know, sadly Shannen would've never have been back/been asked back. Had this been the case, I wouldn't have minded Prue coming back to help Piper's daughter's birth (in the two-part finale) but with a better plot than in The Day the Magic Died (e.g. no Twice-Blessed Child, no Lord of the Rings-esque sorcerors).   

You mean Prudence Melinda. That's what they were going to name Wyatt if she was a girl. She wouldn't be the same girl as the one in Morality Bites. And I agree totally that that, especially if there was a way of proving that Prudence Melinda was the reincarnation of her aunt, letting Prue be part of the ending that way.

Well, I don't like the name Prudence Melinda, personally, but if Prue had died and come back for the birth I suppose it would've been nice. Yeah, that would be nice, like, if Prue had been back for the day (Patty at Piper's wedding style) and 'moved on' just as PM was born. 

Agreed totally. Had they made the final Big Bads the sisters themselves (not evil versions, but the sisters as they were from S6-8) with it being all about them finding out how horrible they had become and finding their way back to the proper path, then I could've tolerated S6-8 (I'm not as against S5 as most fans, especially if Cole had remained in Season 4 where he belonged and the Demonic Wasteland never existed - that when someone was vanquished, they no longer existed and could not come back). I felt the show needed the lightness of S5 after the horrible unCharmedlike darkness of S3 and S4 - but again, I'm usually in the minority regarding that. I much prefer the non-Cole-parts of S5 over S3 and S4, and had they skipped the Cole parts and gone straight to Piper and Leo having a baby for the last season (Season Three, so including Prue), that would've been fine with me. For me, Cole as a half-breed was as bad as witchlighters.

So instead of Billie and Christy being the ones to tell them how corrupted they'd become, it would be themselves? It certainly would've been a more interesting idea than what we got. I never really understood the Triad's plan anyway; kidnap one sister, brainwash her and then let the other sister find her so she can brainwash her in turn, so they'll eventually kill the Charmed Ones? Wouldn't it have been easier to kidnap both of them?

Actually, if I take out the fairytales, superhero, leprechaun, nymph and Titan episodes, I do like Season 5. I'm quite picky why it comes to the 'mythology' episodes, because I actually liked the gypsies, the sandman and even the mermaids, because they had context in their respective episodes, rather than being there for the sake of it.

The thing I didn't like about Cole's presence in S5 was Phoebe out-of-character behaviour towards him. She seemed at peace with the fact that it was the Source that had overtaken Cole and he had no control over his actions. Thus, it made absolutely no sense that she hated him. Personally, I think Cole deserved more hate in Season 3 when he was still half-demon and was willingly killing people.   

Plus, he saved her from Agent Jackman, so she could hardly be surprised that he was back.  
 

Of course it wasn't a new power - it was an advancement of her being able to move things with her mind, just like Piper's. It's back to that's what happens when you try to name powers.

It felt new to me. I don't know how huge waves of energy has much to do with telekinesis.   

It was an evil advancement of her power, one I totally disagree with. I do like the way the comics explain it, where it's using her empathy to send his hatred back to him, but don't feel she should've ever gotten it - that whole episode would've been much better had Prue been the one who killed with her TK or if the episode happened as the series finale in S8 and Piper used her explosions to get rid of a very annoying Billie (leaving Christy totally out of the equation) so Billie was never evil, just annoying... But again, since the sisters in "Morality Bites" were evil, Phoebe's power had been twisted. And because I would *not* want the sisters evil, I wouldn't want their powers twisted.

Yeah, I guess it was related to her empathy. The trouble is should she be able to use her empathic powers as offensive weapons. I don't know. I suppose Piper and Prue's are, but I think there's something inherently more sinister about Phoebe's powers being hurtful/offensive, because they're meant to be passive (well, except that levitation mess).  

Exactly, exactly, exactly correct, but you'll get a lot of disagreement from most fans who think they should be inheritable, the same way they think that Paige's kids would only be 1/4 whitelighter while Piper's would be 1/2 whitelighter, making Piper's kids more powerful, when they totally forget that if this was the case, the sisters, the Charmed Ones, the most powerful witches ever, were less than 1/256th witch, since although Warren women did *not* keep their maiden names (right, Penny Johnson Halliwell???), they *did* marry non-magical men like Victor - the best way to have a semi-normal life. The Elders letting Piper and Leo marry just because the Charmed Ones had saved their asses was *such* a mistake, part of why I don't like S3.

I didn't get that idea either - of the Elders not wanting witches and whitelighters to have children. I think that was just added in in Season Four and Five. I think in Season Three, it was simply just that they didn't want whitelighters to be romantically involved with their charges. I mean, why on Earth would they worry about 'too much a concentration of magic'? Couldn't they just ensure Paige, Wyatt and the other witchlighters didn't get hybrid powers? They are not naturally obtained powers, they're meant to come from the Elders.  

[Esmeralda]

Decided to bump this one forward to see what our newer members think

[Deleted]

Posted this in another thread. It actually fits better with this topic.

I think they could have expanded the original powers though, in ways that aren't entirely new powers. If they had three abilities each, perhaps something along the lines of this:

Prue: Telekinesis, Levitation, Banishing.
Piper: Freezing, Deceleration, Time Looping
Phoebe: Premonition, Sensing, Vision Projection.

To elaborate (for the sake of this, I'm disregarding Paige for the time being and imagining 7 seasons):

Season 1- No problem here, keep it as it was, developing smoothly.

Season 2- Prue starts training and begins to defy gravity ever so slightly. She notices more as she fights more. Towards the end of the season, she can actually suspend herself in the air for a few seconds.
Piper and Phoebe's development can remain pretty much the same; with Piper becoming more selective with unfreezing and Phoebe getting better at summoning visions.

Season 3- When Phoebe meets Cole, she senses something, but can't quite put her finger on what. As she gets closer to him and as the season progresses, her power strengthens and she is able to clearly recognize him as a demon rather than having it revealed to her. Piper gains far more control over her power allowing her to unfreeze body parts and (later in the season) slow down time. Prue becomes a much more capable fighter and becomes skilled at combining her TK and levitation stunts.

Season 4- Prue's telekinesis increases in strength, becoming quite destructive when angry (but not quite to the extent of Morality Bites). Phoebe begins getting some premonitions without touching anything and her senses grow stronger.

Season 5- Prue becomes able to banish beings, removing them from the building and blocking their entrance for a certain amount of time. Phoebe can sense people's location. Piper's freeze/slow down can spread across wider areas.

Season 6- At the start of the season, Phoebe learns she can project her visions into other people's minds, allowing her to share them with her sisters and others. Later on in the season, she realizes that she can project other visions too, incapacitating enemies by playing all their worst, most traumatic moments at once. This is what will later become her "Morality Bites" power, but for now it can't kill, just severely hurt and disorientate.

Season 7- Piper becomes capable of time looping a moment in an area. Fighting greater evil than ever before, Piper can use this to give the sisters more than one opportunity at a vanquish and to practice different tactics. She can also lock thought to be unvanquishable demons in a moment. As with developing her ability to unfreeze, she gradually learns to break a time loop at a point of her choosing, allowing her to save her sisters or an innocent by looping a moment back to when they were okay and breaking it before they're hurt.

The main thing with all these powers is that none of the sisters can vanquish a demon with a simple hand wave. Prue's would become the most offensive, but even she would only be able to do a lot of damage to a demon (short of reflecting energy balls or sticking them with sharp objects of course). So The Power of Three is still a necessity.

[Esmeralda]

Jun 25, 2015 10:32:53 GMT -5 @p3nathan said:

Posted this in another thread. It actually fits better with this topic.

I think they could have expanded the original powers though, in ways that aren't entirely new powers. If they had three abilities each, perhaps something along the lines of this:

Prue: Telekinesis, Levitation, Banishing.
Piper: Freezing, Deceleration, Time Looping
Phoebe: Premonition, Sensing, Vision Projection.

To elaborate (for the sake of this, I'm disregarding Paige for the time being and imagining 7 seasons):

Season 1- No problem here, keep it as it was, developing smoothly.

Season 2- Prue starts training and begins to defy gravity ever so slightly. She notices more as she fights more. Towards the end of the season, she can actually suspend herself in the air for a few seconds.
Piper and Phoebe's development can remain pretty much the same; with Piper becoming more selective with unfreezing and Phoebe getting better at summoning visions.

Season 3- When Phoebe meets Cole, she senses something, but can't quite put her finger on what. As she gets closer to him and as the season progresses, her power strengthens and she is able to clearly recognize him as a demon rather than having it revealed to her. Piper gains far more control over her power allowing her to unfreeze body parts and (later in the season) slow down time. Prue becomes a much more capable fighter and becomes skilled at combining her TK and levitation stunts.

Season 4- Prue's telekinesis increases in strength, becoming quite destructive when angry (but not quite to the extent of Morality Bites). Phoebe begins getting some premonitions without touching anything and her senses grow stronger.

Season 5- Prue becomes able to banish beings, removing them from the building and blocking their entrance for a certain amount of time. Phoebe can sense people's location. Piper's freeze/slow down can spread across wider areas.

Season 6- At the start of the season, Phoebe learns she can project her visions into other people's minds, allowing her to share them with her sisters and others. Later on in the season, she realizes that she can project other visions too, incapacitating enemies by playing all their worst, most traumatic moments at once. This is what will later become her "Morality Bites" power, but for now it can't kill, just severely hurt and disorientate.

Season 7- Piper becomes capable of time looping a moment in an area. Fighting greater evil than ever before, Piper can use this to give the sisters more than one opportunity at a vanquish and to practice different tactics. She can also lock thought to be unvanquishable demons in a moment. As with developing her ability to unfreeze, she gradually learns to break a time loop at a point of her choosing, allowing her to save her sisters or an innocent by looping a moment back to when they were okay and breaking it before they're hurt.

The main thing with all these powers is that none of the sisters can vanquish a demon with a simple hand wave. Prue's would become the most offensive, but even she would only be able to do a lot of damage to a demon (short of reflecting energy balls or sticking them with sharp objects of course). So The Power of Three is still a necessity.

Whoa, p3Nathan! Not sure how I missed this original post. Naturally this could never happen with Shannen Doherty being fired, but had it, I would've enjoyed the show a whole lot more. In each situation, I love how the sisters would've had to work together to vanquish bad guys, what the show was supposed to be about and stopped being about once Piper got her explosion power. Best of all, each progression makes sense with their original power, and with Melinda Warren's prophecy (once it was proven that by freezing time, she actually meant freezing molecules.)

Have you written any alternate-universe Charmed fanfics? I have a hunch I'd love reading them.

[Deleted]

Thank you, glad you like it. Now that you mention it, I had considered doing an alternate series from season 2 onward, but never got round to it

[Esmeralda]

Jun 25, 2015 12:04:39 GMT -5 @p3nathan said:

Thank you, glad you like it. Now that you mention it, I had considered doing an alternate series from season 2 onward, but never got round to it

Well, I will very gladly give a circular piece of cardboard with the letters "TUIT" on it, because I'd love to see you get "a round tuit".   (My mom used to give me one of those in a card each time I'd say I'd do something when I'd get around to it...)

[Esmeralda]

Jun 25, 2015 11:10:34 GMT -5 Esmeralda said:

Jun 25, 2015 10:32:53 GMT -5 @p3nathan said:

Posted this in another thread. It actually fits better with this topic.

Whoa, p3Nathan! Not sure how I missed this original post. Naturally this could never happen with Shannen Doherty being fired, but had it, I would've enjoyed the show a whole lot more. In each situation, I love how the sisters would've had to work together to vanquish bad guys, what the show was supposed to be about and stopped being about once Piper got her explosion power. Best of all, each progression makes sense with their original power, and with Melinda Warren's prophecy (once it was proven that by freezing time, she actually meant freezing molecules.)

Have you written any alternate-universe Charmed fanfics? I have a hunch I'd love reading them.

P3Nathan, I copied your post to another site (as always when I do this, saying that I saw it at a different site - no way I'd take credit for something as wonderful and original as this) and got a reply I thought you might get as big of a kick out of as I did:

This is really good.

Season 7- Piper becomes capable of time looping a moment in an area..................... As with developing her ability to unfreeze, she gradually learns to break a time loop at a point of her choosing, allowing her to save her sisters or an innocent by looping a moment back to when they were okay and breaking it before they're hurt

.

Ahhh. I can just imagine a million ways how Piper could also use this power for her personal advantage and ending up probably pissing off prue, phoebe or Leo on occasion. Imagine piper having a heated argument with Leo about something he did and she keeps time looping the moment in question until he gets it right. Or phoebe constantly getting those dejavu moments of the time loops piper did and being pissed off piper keeps doing that.

Interesting that empathy for phoebe was left out. I would have liked in addition for Phoebe at some point to be able to communicate telepathically with her sisters and be able to tap into the power of three for the times that all three aren't together while fighting a demon/warlock.

[Esmeralda]

May 19, 2011 6:07:20 GMT -5 Reality Bites said:

Hmm... I would have made all the sisters have power progressions that stuck in the area related to their Warren power.

I would have stuck with mind movement for Prue AND Paige.

Telekinesis - propelling objects with her mind
Astral projection - moving her (astral) body with her mind
Teleportation - instantaneously moving objects with her mind

I would have stuck with time manipulation for Piper.

Freezing time - stopping time in small pocket areas
Reversing time - rewinding time in small pocket areas (however, this would initially be limited to 5 - 10 minutes of moving time backwards, just like her freezes only hold for so long)
Self-acceleration - manipulate her own pocket of time, which allows her to move at super-human speeds.

I would have stuck with seeing the future or seeing beyond the normal senses for Phoebe.

Premonition - the ability to perceive the future.
Empathy - the ability to perceive the emotions of others.
Dream walking - the ability to enter and perceive the dreams of other people (basically a less developed talent of mind reading).

I quoted this at another site that was discussing power progression and I love the response I got:

The Seer put it best. "You and I share the same power". Phoebe had the mental power.

Empathy has a skipped rung before it. Telepathy is the next evolutionary step, then Empathy.

Then as her powers advanced, her premonitions could be triggered at will like the Seer could just view into the future whenever she wanted.

Lastly, projecting visions into other people's minds.

Amen!