Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?"
Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,920 
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Post by Esmeralda on Sept 22, 2007 12:05:52 GMT -5
I've gotta admit you're right on all accounts!
And for that, you've been blessed.
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Post by whitelightertony on Sept 24, 2007 1:58:53 GMT -5
Piper never combusted a good witch during the series, so we really don't know for certain one way or the other.
No, Christy was convinced that the Charmed Ones were evil and a threat to Billie, so even when Billie tried to talk some sense into her Christy couldn't fathom the possibility that Billie might be right. The concept of the Charmed Ones being unredeemable was too engrained in Christy's psyche.
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Post by vandergraafk on Sept 24, 2007 17:18:43 GMT -5
Christy "convinced"? Of anything? No, unfortunately, what Christy was was thoroughly and slavishly brainwashed. I supposed this is Charmed's attempt to incorporate the Manchurian Candidate into the series. Why not? It borrowed liberally from plenty of fine films.
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Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?"
Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,920
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Post by Esmeralda on Sept 24, 2007 23:54:07 GMT -5
Exactly. That's why I think she was truly the Ultimate Innocent, which the sisters should've, but didn't, save.
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Post by whitelightertony on Sept 25, 2007 2:11:13 GMT -5
Convinced, brainwashed. Same difference.
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Post by vandergraafk on Sept 26, 2007 18:31:02 GMT -5
Convince suggests persuasion. Rational arguments theoretically can alter one's perceptions if these are grounded in rational thought and do not involve faith or superstition. However, a brainwashing can be so thorough, as it was in the Manchurian candidate that maybe it becomes impossible to "rescue" the victim.
In one respect, I agree, Esmeralda, Christy, young Christy, the little girl who had been kidnapped, isolated and brainwashed for 15 years, was the Ultimate Innocent. However, that Christy was already dead before the Christy whom the Triad had great plans for was allowed to "escape" from the Underworld. No longer an innocent but a "convinced" and thorougly brainwashed advocate for the vanquish of the Charmed Ones to the benefit of the demonic Underworld, a fact she was keenly aware of and withheld from her "beloved", but easily manipulated sister Billie, Christy was only innocent to the extent that she probably was unaware that the TRIAD intended for her and Billie to die along with the Charmed Ones.
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Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?"
Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,920
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Post by Esmeralda on Sept 27, 2007 9:14:37 GMT -5
Convince suggests persuasion. Rational arguments theoretically can alter one's perceptions if these are grounded in rational thought and do not involve faith or superstition. However, a brainwashing can be so thorough, as it was in the Manchurian candidate that maybe it becomes impossible to "rescue" the victim. In one respect, I agree, Esmeralda, Christy, young Christy, the little girl who had been kidnapped, isolated and brainwashed for 15 years, was the Ultimate Innocent. However, that Christy was already dead before the Christy whom the Triad had great plans for was allowed to "escape" from the Underworld. No longer an innocent but a "convinced" and thorougly brainwashed advocate for the vanquish of the Charmed Ones to the benefit of the demonic Underworld, a fact she was keenly aware of and withheld from her "beloved", but easily manipulated sister Billie, Christy was only innocent to the extent that she probably was unaware that the TRIAD intended for her and Billie to die along with the Charmed Ones. Then with anyone being able to use Coop's ring, rather than just going back to destroy the Triad, they should've used it to go back and rescue Young Christy and destroy Dumain at that time, and then bind Christy's power, the way the sisters bound Tyler, another kid with similar problems who couldn't control it. That would've taken care of the problem without any need to vanquish fellow witches. And that would mean that Billie would never be manipulated and their parents never killed. A *much* better solution than the one shown on Forever Charmed, where life means nothing unless it's a Halliwell life. |
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Post by vandergraafk on Sept 27, 2007 18:00:43 GMT -5
I don't know that this was foreclosed in Forever Charmed. We don't know what Billie will do with respect to her sister. We do "know" that Christy does not appear in any of the future events depicted, but that doesn't mean that she can't reappear. So, let's for the sake of argument assume that your suggestion is worthy of investigation. First, there is no need to fixate solely on Coop's ring as a means to accomplishing the goal of rescuing young Christy. There are at least two other options. Second, do we even know enough about "love" travel, i.e., time travel via Coop's ring, to know what can and cannot be done. Third, do we know much about Billie's power of projection to say anything meaningful at all. Fourth, what about the greater good? Is it permissible to do whatever one wishes simply to save a loved one, be it a Halliwell/Warren, a Jenkins or anyone else for that matter? Let me discuss each of these in turn. Assuming, for the time being, that the goal of rescusing a young Christy is a wise choice, I can think of several ways that this might be accomplished. First, the Halliwells or Billie could use Coop's ring to go back in time to perhaps rescuse young Christy. Or, Billie could just project herself backward in time, as she did in Forever Charmed. Or, the Halliwell's could work on a really good spell to allow both forward and backward time travel, as evil Wyatt was eventually able to accomplish in Chris Crossed. Or, the Elders could arrange for Billie to be whisked back in time. Whether the demonic Underworld would allow this is another matter. By that I mean, I assume that her location was securely cloaked, as Jerek's was in Y Tu Mummy Tambien. The 21 year old Christy was found because the Triad wished her to be found. That is, it was time to implement the plan. As for love travel as a feasible means of altering time, I know we see this done in Forever Charmed. But, can this be done willy-nilly without the blessing of the Elders, the Angels of Destiny or both. Remember that at the conclusion of Kill Billie, Volume 2, the Angel of Destiny returns Leo but warns that this was not how the Ultimate Battle was supposed to turn out. This allowed Piper to attempt to alter time in order to save Phoebe. (I refuse to accept that Paige died. It makes no sense. And, her body was never found. It was merely asserted without any evidence to support the supposition!) Now, why should Coop's ring make any of this feasible? I haven't a clue. I fear it was merely an ad hoc solution to a problem created by the Ultimate Battle scenario as devised. Worse: when Coop took Phoebe back to view her past loves, there was not even a hint that either of them might be able to alter time. They were merely passive observers. So, how does this ring acquire the power to alter time. And, where the hell was it when Prue died? After all, that had already met a cupid in Heartbreak City. Billie's projection power is another annoying invention. It not only gives her a lot more power than either Paige or Phoebe since Billie also has the ability of telekinesis, which apparently this power is a tremendous extension of, one not even Prue got to experience or master before her untimely death@! This power also allows her to alter time. Whoa! Who needs Tempus when all you need do is project yourself backwards in time. Why didn't the Elders allow Prue to develop this in All Hell Breaks Loose? Fourth, when did the Charmed Ones independently acquire the right to alter time for their own selfish ends? Chris goes back in time to save the Elders, as well as Paige and Phoebe. He also tries to prevent Wyatt from turning evil and, in the process, exposes Gideon as a good Elder gone sour. Since the world that Chris came from may or may not have any Elders around any longer, they may not have objected even had they been around. Wyatt was too power obsessed to let his libido go unchecked. The Angels of Destiny probably wouldn't object either since they surely would have suspected or known that the evil future as depicted in Chris Crossed was not how it was meant to be. But saving young Christy? Surely, the Elders and the Angels of Destiny have more than a passing interest in that. And, I would argue, it cannot be assumed that the Elders, the Angels of Destiny or both would go along with the effort. Magic had not been exposed, and witches do die. Now, there might be a way around this problem. I am working on a project to save Chris from death at the end of Season 6 by having Paige rescue him. Yet, even I have to admit that this is by no means easy. Paige will have to do this behind the Elders' backs since they will oppose it. I haven't even begun to figure out how she will deal with the Angels of Destiny. (Part of my story can be read in A Page from the Past: Saving Chris's Life. see charmedverse.proboards74.com or see the fan fiction section of this forum. |
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Post by foxfire on Sept 27, 2007 20:15:17 GMT -5
Should we forgive someone like Christy for the things she's done and wanted to do?
Yeah, she was brainwashed but is that a perfectly good excuse for why she did what she did? Sure, the Charmed Ones could have tried a spell to try to show her the error of her ways but I somehow don't see that working. It's so engrained in her head that it would be like bending her free will.
I don't know... I just think Christy was just evil. Perhaps Christy knew deep down that she was doing something that was wrong. Anyway, I will say that she was an excellent villain.
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Kit-the-cat
Witch
There are tons of people I'd like to freeze for all of eternity, but we won't go into that!-Holly
Posts: 1,337
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Post by Kit-the-cat on Sept 28, 2007 6:44:01 GMT -5
NO NO NO!
I agree on the going back and saving Christy etc, bt binding her powers. What would of happened when TCO died- they would of left a women- just like themselves- with a power they didn't know they had, and in that case what would of happened to Billie and her powers, would they of done the same thing.
I think that if they had saved Chrisy then as Christy grew older she would be able to learn to control her powers as a GOOD witch. But when is Binding ever the answer?
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Post by vandergraafk on Sept 28, 2007 16:33:57 GMT -5
So, some of you disagree that even a young Christy might be saved. But, what about whether this is even feasible? Would the Elders or the Angels of Destiny even allow this?
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Post by whitelightertony on Sept 29, 2007 3:43:02 GMT -5
Why would she go along with it if she thought it might cause harm to Billie?
Billie was the only family Christy had left.
And if Christy had willingly embraced Evil, then why would she attack The Triad after finding out they were responsible for the deaths of her parents?
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Kit-the-cat
Witch
There are tons of people I'd like to freeze for all of eternity, but we won't go into that!-Holly
Posts: 1,337
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Post by Kit-the-cat on Sept 29, 2007 13:07:19 GMT -5
Christy didn't attack the triad did she.
Even if TAOD or TE allowed Christy to be saved, binding her powers wouldnt of worked, because she'd receive them later in life. Causing the same problems she has, not being able to control them.
And Christy was BrainWashed, she would of attacked anyone, probably, i wouldnt put it past her
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Post by whitelightertony on Sept 29, 2007 14:12:50 GMT -5
I thought she killed at least one of The Triad members after she found out they'd ordered her parents to be killed.
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Post by foxfire on Sept 29, 2007 20:44:13 GMT -5
What I was wondering all along was why the Charmed Ones didn't block Christy's telepathy. It's a dangerous power and when they found out she was evil, they should have made sure Christy couldn't read their minds.
A binding spell might not have worked because it would have required a potion or something (unlike in the Craft).
Debating whether Christy should have been punished or not should really be looked at like any other people from the past who have done evil things but thought they were doing good.
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Post by vandergraafk on Oct 1, 2007 11:11:36 GMT -5
Christy "vanquished" Kandor, the last remaining corporeal TRIAD member. While being vanquished, Kandor claimed that she had passed the final test. Again, the TRIAD were manipulating the entire set of circumstances, though not completely as we had learned in Engaged and Confused. Worried that contact with Billie would lessen Christy's "mission", Kandor arranged for the Smiths to be killed in order for Christy to discover the true demonic hate that had been inculcated in her for years. Just look at the expression on Christy's face as she vanquishes Kandor!
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ljones
Whitelighter
Posts: 4,123
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Post by ljones on Oct 1, 2007 13:44:48 GMT -5
The Elders or the Angel of Destiny should not have any say over Christy's fate or the fate of any witch.
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Post by whitelightertony on Oct 1, 2007 14:44:53 GMT -5
But from Christy's perspective, she had vanquished Kandor in the first place because he attacked her family.
I can't see how that would change, from Christy's P.O.V., in the mere blink of an eye. I think that everything Christy did from that point on ("Engaged and Confused" and beyond) was because Christy believed she was "saving" Billie from being "corrupted" by the Halliwells.
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Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?"
Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,920
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Post by Esmeralda on Oct 1, 2007 19:01:52 GMT -5
The whole idea of Christy totally becoming evil after she killed hit me the wrong way. It sounded too much like what happened to Cole after he killed his mentor--his mentor said just about the same words. It sounded like that's what the mentor (and the Triad member) *wanted* Cole/Christy to believe, but wasn't necessarily so. Cole didn't stay evil in S3/S4--he was able to be saved. So should have Christy.
The sisters binded Tyler the Firestarter's powers because he couldn't control it. They should've gone back in time and done the same for Young Christy. That way the Triad would not have needed or want her and would not have kidnapped her and brainwashed her. With Christy not kidnapped, Billie would've remained the sisters' friend. It would also mean their parents would not have been killed. Problem solved--a LOT better than using the Hollow, for pity's sake, or making Billie the heroine by making her be the one who uses her powers to go back in time and her the one who actually vanquishes her sister and go through that fakey sob scene. She was *SO* Kern's MarySue that it was disgusting! The same way the sisters planned on unbinding Tyler's powers when he was old enough to properly control it, they could've done the same for Christy when she became an adult, when she wouldn't be brainwashed and could properly decide whether to use her powers for good or evil. If she uses them for evil, and she becomes a warlock and starts killing witches in order to gain their powers, vanquish her! If not, you have yourself a friend.
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Post by vandergraafk on Oct 2, 2007 18:30:49 GMT -5
I guess, whitelightertony, that I view Christy's point of view a bit differently. I don't see her just avenging the death of her parents. I see that as the purest expression of evil that the TRIAD had tried to inculcate in her for 15 years. There was no doubt, no hesitation. She just thrust her arm into his corpus!
As for Esmeralda and ljones, I understand certainly the desire to save young Christy. However, my question still remains: by what authority do witches - whether the Charmed Ones, Billie or any other supernatural witch, for that matter - have the right to alter history? Ljones at least attempts an answer by asserting that neither the Angels of Destiny nor the Elders should have any such say. Okay, at least that's a point of view. Whether it dovetails neatly with Charmedverse is another matter entirely.
My reading of Charmed suggests that traveling through time has always carried with it a great price. The Elders sent the sisters into the future in order that an important lesson be learnt, one that Phoebe took more readily to heart than her sisters did initially upon returning to the present. The Elders (again) or was it the Angels of Destiny? send the sisters back to rescue the entire Warren line of witches from Belthazor/Cole's gambit. Chris goes back in time to save the Elders, as well as Paige and perhaps Phoebe.
Season 6 really begins undermining all of this as time travel simply becomes a willy-nilly affair. Leo catches Chris messing with a time portal. He chases after Chris and both end up with dinosaurs. Thereafter, they go backwards and forwards in time seemingly at their pleasure. In Chris Crossed, Wyatt sends Bianca back to return Chris. This Chris openly asks Bianca how this is possible. After all, the time portal that he used was only one way. Apparently, Chris forgets that he is already able to go back and forward in time (at least as long as this is prior to the present) when he asks this question. To go beyond the present he has yet to do (perhaps) and, to this extent, the comment is legitimate. Bianca, of course, replies that Wyatt worked out the details. (But, somehow Wyatt will be unable to send other assassin witches to kill Chris after Bianca has failed!) Simply taking the spell with him doesn't work for me. Nor should it be acceptable to anyone else. I won't even begin to unravel the love travel of Forever Charmed. Let's just say that time travel has become quite pedestrian by Season 8.
By what should this be so? Time travel is extremely risky. As I pointed out elsewhere, it can lead to the creation of paradoxes. In All Hell Breaks Loose, when time is reset, the possibility exists that Cole, unaffected by the resetting of time, will no longer be under Raymer's spell but without there existing any a prior event that might have caused this, especially if Phoebe is kept in the past and not allowed to return to the world as it is being reset in order to secure the potion vial which she must use to free Cole. Because of such paradoxes, time travel needs to be limited.
Unfortunately, as Charmed wore on and found that the audience liked time travel themed episodes, it became more and more frequent and made less and less sense. By the end, ljones is probably correct. Neither the Angels of Destiny nor the Elders have any say in the matter. Well, maybe the Angels of Destiny do to the extent that they acknowledge things have not turned out as expected (Kill Billie, Volume 2).
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