Could Phoebe and Cole have Lasted?

[ljones]

Jul 7, 2008 23:18:28 GMT -5 pubesy said:

piper was NOT perfect, none of the sisters were.

but to consider the grief of losing or potentially losing a sister or husband a character flaw is incredibly unfair.

i suppose you have never lost someone special to you?

I'm not going to answer this question, because as far as I'm concerned, the matter is closed. We both disagree on the topic of Piper dealing with loss.

[whitelightertony]

*Prue's death

*Leo's ascension to Elder status and his defection from her and Wyatt

*Leo being on the verge of death in S8

On the first two examples, I agree with you because Piper had no control over the circumstances.

However, in "Vaya Con Leos," the Angel of Death warned Piper that Leo's demise was eminent. Given the circumstances, it was entirely reasonable that Piper make an attempt to save Leo's life before he actually succumbed to Death.

[pubesy]

However, in "Vaya Con Leos," the Angel of Death warned Piper that Leo's demise was eminent. Given the circumstances, it was entirely reasonable that Piper make an attempt to save Leo's life before he actually succumbed to Death.

exactly. if piper did nothing with the information Death gave to piper, and just let death take leo, i would have been incredibly disappointed. it is completely unlike piper to just do nothing.

[ljones]

I'll make this one last comment:

I find it sad that no one sees the selfishness and immaturity of Piper's unwillingness to let go of Leo. But I'm not surprised. wanted them to have their little happy ending.

[whitelightertony]

I find it sad that no one sees the selfishness and immaturity of Piper's unwillingness to let go of Leo. But I'm not surprised. wanted them to have their little happy ending.

Why should she have to let go of Leo when he hadn't even died yet?!?!

Besides, the Angel of Destiny wouldn't have warned Piper about it ahead of time if he, somewhere in the back of his mind, knew that Leo's death wasn't necessarily inevitable?

There was simply no essential reason why Leo needed to die in "Vaya Con Leos."

[pubesy]

Why should she have to let go of Leo when he hadn't even died yet??!

LMAO! I KNOW!

geez, ;D

Thats like saying that when a person has leukaemia and there is only 0.0000001% chance of finding a bone marrow transplant, their family should just give up, not even bother looking for a match, and start planning funeral arrangements!!

OUCH!

[xoFeliciaFinleyxo]

Phoebe and Cole could've been a couple though the whole series if Cole hadn't turned evil and made phoebe his Queen. If that never happened they definetly would've been a couple through the whole series. Did The Seer turn Cole evil I forgot?

[ljones]

Jul 21, 2008 20:45:53 GMT -5 xoFeliciaFinleyxo said:

Phoebe and Cole could've been a couple though the whole series if Cole hadn't turned evil and made phoebe his Queen. If that never happened they definetly would've been a couple through the whole series. Did The Seer turn Cole evil I forgot?

After the Charmed Ones killed him, the Source's spirit took over Cole's body. The Seer had forseen this and manipulated Cole to make this happen.

The Source DID NOT make Phoebe his queen. The Seer emotionally manipulated Phoebe into agreeing to be his queen. Being incapable of accepting resposibility for her actions, Phoebe blamed Cole.

If there is one thing Cole can be blamed for was his stupidity in accepting the Seer's suggestion in using the Hollow. His heart may have been in the right place, but it was a stupid thing to do. And it showed his inability to deal with the possible loss of Phoebe.

LMAO! I KNOW!

geez,

Thats like saying that when a person has leukaemia and there is only 0.0000001% chance of finding a bone marrow transplant, their family should just give up, not even bother looking for a match, and start planning funeral arrangements!!

OUCH!

Leo was on the verge of death. He would have died, if Piper had just accepted the loss instead of allowing the Elders to use magic to postpone his fate, because she couldn't bear the thought of losing him. Like Cole and ironically, Prue, Piper has NEVER handled the loss of a loved one very well. She didn't when Prue died. She didn't when Leo became an Elder. Yet, fans keep making excuses for her behavior and actions, because of her popularity.

[pubesy]

it has nothing to do with piper's popularity. Excuses are not made for piper because she is "popular."

it is about piper ABILITY to cope with loss. Or prevent it in the first place.

Of course piper found it difficult to handle the death of her big sister that she admired. what is wrong with that? sure she blamed the death on herself, others, and even prue herself. but that is natural. it is natural to want to be angry. it is natural to become depressed and for her to want to reject paige. it is a part of loss.

and eventually, piper did accept prue was gone, and was able to move on.

Grieving is an individual process. there is no real "right" or "wrong" way do grieve.


and as far as leo goes...

how any times had piper almost lost leo before? when they first started dating, the elders tried to take leo away. he clipped his wings twice to be with piper. he had his memory erased and was left out in the middle of nowhere, and yet still they managed to be together. he became an elder and piper was forced to let him go...... even though leo made it difficult by sticking around.

then FINALLY when everything was running smoothly, DEATH comes to take leo. do you blame piper for making a deal with destiny?

I know i would if i could for a loved one!

and what about leo, and HIS 'inability' to let go of piper? does he go away blameless?

[whitelightertony]

Why should anyone have to accept death, if there is no real reason for it?

Piper and Phoebe had to eventually accept Prue's death in "All Hell Breaks Loose," because it was Prue's time to die -- and it was Paige's time to come into her magical identity.

There was no such karmic reason given why Leo *had* to die in "Vaya Con Leos"...other than the silly tripe of "It'll motivate the Charmed Ones to fight harder than ever before to unmask the Ultimate Power" (well, um, Ms. Angel of Destiny, as we saw in late-Season 8, they managed to do that without Leo having to die).

For that reason, I reject the supposition that every death in the Charmedverse necessarily *had* to happen. Would the world have stopped spinning if Drake had found a way out of his ill-fated deal? What about Future Chris -- is there any concrete reason why he couldn't have been sent back to the future safely? Or why Christy had to die at the end of "Forever Charmed"? Or why the ogre had to be vanquished at the hands of Zankou in SWTWG?

[pubesy]

i see it as follows.

the only reason leo did not HAVE to die, and there was a way around it was because DEATH told piper he was to die. this gave piper time to pull strings and find a way around it. in all other cases, death never came to the sisters to tell them that drake, prue etc was to do so there was no time to pull strings to prevent the death.

and as far as drake goes, he had accepted he was to be vanquished, and di not really want to be saved

[ljones]

All I'm going to say is that I disagree with you both and believe that Piper was just as incapable of dealing with loss than Prue and Cole.

I realize both of you keep denying that she has difficultly in dealing with loss or making excuses for her behavior. I'm sorry, but I don't buy your excuses anymore than you buy my opinion.

[whitelightertony]

i see it as follows.

the only reason leo did not HAVE to die, and there was a way around it was because DEATH told piper he was to die. this gave piper time to pull strings and find a way around it. in all other cases, death never came to the sisters to tell them that drake, prue etc was to do so there was no time to pull strings to prevent the death.

and as far as drake goes, he had accepted he was to be vanquished, and di not really want to be saved

It's true that Leo's impending death was a rare circumstance where the Angel of Death actually forewarned someone that their loved one was about to die. But for the Angel of Death's intervention, there probably would have been nothing that Piper could have done.

[pubesy]

EXACTLY! if DEATH did not tell piper that leo was to die, she would not have been able to try and re-route destiny.

leo would have already been dead. there would have been nothing piper could do. then she would have HAD to accept leo was gone.

that is the difference between prue's death.

[whitelightertony]

So that makes me wonder: what exactly was it that made the Angel of Death forewarn Piper about Leo's impending demise (especially given that Piper wasn't exactly on good terms with him)?

[pubesy]

maybe it was a combination of factors that caused death to break rules and forewarn piper of leo's imminent death.

Maybe it was because piper had once helped death, as she became a grimm reaper herself (even though it was supposed to be a consequence of her actions)

maybe it was because death has been following the sisters and knew how many times piper and leo have had to fight to stay together, and felt bad that finally, piper would lose this battle. maybe death felt piper would gain closure much easier if she had time to say the final goodbye (but of course this plan backfired on death. True to character, piper once again tried to fight death from taking leo)

or maybe the elders had given permission for death to tell piper. maybe it was never leo's destiny to die. Maybe it was destiny for piper to find a way around his death (true to her character) by freezing him. Maybe the elders knew all along, that for piper to have the courage and persistence to convince paige and phoebe to kill christy and Billie, leo needed to be taken away on the promise of his return once the ultimate battle was over.

[whitelightertony]

Hehe, I can just picture Sandra whispering in Death's ear ("Give Piper a heads-up!").

[pubesy]

Sandra "shhhh, but don't tell her i told you to"

[ljones]

Jul 26, 2008 7:12:01 GMT -5 pubesy said:

maybe it was a combination of factors that caused death to break rules and forewarn piper of leo's imminent death.

Maybe it was because piper had once helped death, as she became a grimm reaper herself (even though it was supposed to be a consequence of her actions)

maybe it was because death has been following the sisters and knew how many times piper and leo have had to fight to stay together, and felt bad that finally, piper would lose this battle. maybe death felt piper would gain closure much easier if she had time to say the final goodbye (but of course this plan backfired on death. True to character, piper once again tried to fight death from taking leo)

or maybe the elders had given permission for death to tell piper. maybe it was never leo's destiny to die. Maybe it was destiny for piper to find a way around his death (true to her character) by freezing him. Maybe the elders knew all along, that for piper to have the courage and persistence to convince paige and phoebe to kill christy and Billie, leo needed to be taken away on the promise of his return once the ultimate battle was over.

Or maybe it was Kern and his writers' rather contrived way of making Piper and Leo's relationship more interesting in Season 8.


As for Piper's inability to deal with loss . . . I still believe that is part of her personality makeup.

[pubesy]

*long sigh*
.....and here we go with the kern bashing again. honestly, ljones, you were doing so well at keeping it to a minimum.

and, sure, because piper is such a fighter, she finds it dificult to cope with loss.

but she is not unable to cope with loss