|
|
Post by whitelightertony on Jul 29, 2008 0:19:28 GMT -5
Ljones, you choose to point the finger at Kern...
But what is your opinion of the executives at the WB, who handed down the decision to Kern that Brian Krause would only get to appear in the first ten episodes of Season 8 as a series regular?
|
|
ljones
Whitelighter
Posts: 4,123
|
Post by ljones on Jul 30, 2008 1:26:30 GMT -5
Ljones, you choose to point the finger at Kern... But what is your opinion of the executives at the WB, who handed down the decision to Kern that Brian Krause would only get to appear in the first ten episodes of Season 8 as a series regular? Kern was the one who had agreed to cave in to their desires. They tried to do something similar with Joss Whedon and he ended up moving to another network. And it was Kern and his crackmonkeys who created that lame storyline regarding Leo in Season 8. As far as I'm concerned, if they were forced to get rid of Brian Krause, they should have killed off Leo. |
|
pubesy
Witch
"If I could dream at all, it would be about you. And I'm not ashamed of it." - Edward Cullen
Posts: 1,171
|
Post by pubesy on Jul 30, 2008 7:15:08 GMT -5
but if they killed off Leo, then you would have complained about that too
|
|
|
|
Post by whitelightertony on Jul 31, 2008 2:33:04 GMT -5
Um, Joss was the creator of the Buffy franchise. He probably owned more rights to the series than Kern did to Charmed. In fact, I believe Kern was an employee of the WB...if Kern had quit as showrunner, he could have potentially been held in breach of his contract (unless he convinced the WB to let him go). Oh, yeah, that's really fair to Brian. *sarcasm* Kill off his character just because some suits at the WB are too cheap to shell out the extra money for him...  |
|
ljones
Whitelighter
Posts: 4,123
|
Post by ljones on Jul 31, 2008 20:37:04 GMT -5
but if they killed off Leo, then you would have complained about that too Trust me . . . I would NOT have complained. Don't assume that I would. |
|
|
|
Post by whitelightertony on Aug 1, 2008 2:55:49 GMT -5
And to hell with Brian, right? |
|
pubesy
Witch
"If I could dream at all, it would be about you. And I'm not ashamed of it." - Edward Cullen
Posts: 1,171
|
Post by pubesy on Aug 1, 2008 7:00:17 GMT -5
you know what, tony, to hell with them all.
it was a lame pathetic excuse of a show because they never followed the laws of wicca, there was no moral ambiguity, it was too black and white, personal gain rules existed.........yadda yadda yadda
|
|
Nimue
Familiar
Posts: 606 
|
Post by Nimue on Jan 2, 2015 11:47:34 GMT -5
Maybe they could have lasted, and maybe they couldn't. It all would have depended on the writers, what new story lines they came up with for the two of them, and also the actors. Maybe Julian Mcmahon would have tired of his role as Cole, and would have wanted to move on to other projects. Being a Phoebe/Cole shipper, I would have loved to see them together for the rest of the show, like Leo and Piper did: if the writers played their cards right, Phoebe could have grown and matured quite a bit, and Cole could have learned to successfully balance his demon and human side, and by the end of the show they could be a great couple together, one that like Leo and Piper went through hell and back and that were still together, despite the odds. But it's possible that a lot of people wouldn't like this: having Leo and Piper as a couple throughout the entire show is one thing, but having another couple go through the same thing probably wouldn't appeal to a lot of people.
As for possible story lines for them, maybe in Season 5 Cole wouldn't be as obsessed with Phoebe as he was, and would try to move on with his life and learn how to control all his powers. Maybe he could have help from someone, maybe from the Avatars who think that this would be the best way to lure him to their side, or maybe it could be someone else, and the Avatars would still feature in somehow. At the end of Season 5, he and Phoebe decide to give their relationship another try, after Phoebe learns the truth about his possession and can accept him as a demon, and when Cole has his powers under control and has helped the Charmed Ones save innocents and fight evil. Maybe in Season 6, Cole's mother, Elizabeth, would finally appear and try and drag Cole back to the dark side. Cole's past would be further explored... These are the only ideas I have for now, and obviously I haven't thought out everything, but I would have loved to see something like this happen, although I'm sure I'm in the minority.
|
|
|
|
Post by Melinda Halliwell on Jan 3, 2015 7:09:18 GMT -5
To have a truly lasting relationship both people have to accept one another all the time 100% including the good points and bad ones otherwise it won't work will it which's what happened with Cole and Phoebe when she accepted him season 3 and then not season 4 end.
Now had things gone differently wherein the PO3 knew about Cole's possession sooner and the Seers real plain concerning the baby and had accepted it wasn't his fault that happened tried to exorcise the Source outta Cole whether they succeeded or not and then Cole and Phoebe tried to work out their marriage/relationship whether they seperated for a bit and went and rediscovered one another or did something like marriage counselling and worked through their issues I don't know it could've worked maybe but then there's only so many times Cole could keep being good and evil etc before it got too boring and pointless him being there and people grew tired of it.
Don't get me wrong I loved their relationship from season 3 till Cole was possessed but the way the whole thing was handled aftewards especially the first half of season 5 concerning him he should've stayed dead season 4 end which would've been more justified character wise.
Had the writers gone another way and stretched out what happened between Cole and Phoebe like the charmed ones never vanquished Shax till after 'A Paige From The Past' because of the sisterly bond thing they didn't have previously and then didn't vanquish the Source episode 13 but at the seasons end with Cole becoming possessed then which they explored first half of season 5 having all the sisters know about Cole earlier whom they try to exorcise the Source from whether they succed or not then if they do Cole and Phoebe either seperate for a time and try and find themselves out rediscovering who they were with Cole helping people out through his lawyer work doing pro bono maybe if he was still human and Phoebe helping out her advice column readers and innocents also
and then both got back together after say the Crone who was the big bad of that year did something then or if either had fought someone else prompting the other whomever to try and win the latter back fairly which they suceeded doing then I would've accepted them both more fully.
Or had they done something like marriage counselling as I said and worked through theirs issues totally and knew what the trigger points were so what happened never occured again then I wouldn't have minded that either even if some people wouldn't have liked it here probably.
|
|
Nimue
Familiar
Posts: 606
|
Post by Nimue on Jan 3, 2015 15:13:48 GMT -5
To have a truly lasting relationship both people have to accept one another all the time 100% including the good points and bad ones otherwise it won't work will it which's what happened with Cole and Phoebe when she accepted him season 3 and then not season 4 end. Now had things gone differently wherein the PO3 knew about Cole's possession sooner and the Seers real plain concerning the baby and had accepted it wasn't his fault that happened tried to exorcise the Source outta Cole whether they succeeded or not and then Cole and Phoebe tried to work out their marriage/relationship whether they seperated for a bit and went and rediscovered one another or did something like marriage counselling and worked through their issues I don't know it could've worked maybe but then there's only so many times Cole could keep being good and evil etc before it got too boring and pointless him being there and people grew tired of it. Don't get me wrong I loved their realtionship from season 3 till Cole was possessed but the way the whole thing was handled aftewards especially the first half of season 5 concerning him he should've stayed dead season 4 end which would've been more justified character wise. Had the writers gone another way and stretched out what happened between Cole and Phoebe like the charmed ones never vanquished Shax till after 'A Paige From The Past' because of the sisterly bond thing they didn't have previously and then didn't vanquish the Source episode 13 but at the seasons end with Cole becoming possessed then which they explored first half of season 5 having all the sisters know about Cole earlier whom they try to exorcise the Source from whether they succed or not then if they do Cole and Phoebe either seperate for a time and try and find themselves out rediscovering who they were with Cole helping people out through his lawyer work doing pro bono maybe if he was still human and Phoebe helping out her advice column readers and innocents also and then both got back together after say the Crone who was the big bad of that year did something then or if either had fought someone else prompting the other whomever to try and win the latter back fairly which they suceeded doing then I would've accepted them both more fully. Or had they done something like marriage counselling as I said and worked through theirs issues totally and knew what the trigger points were so what happened never occured again then I wouldn't have minded that either even if some people wouldn't have liked it here probably. I agree with you on every point, and really wish that the writers had done something like that. |
|
ljones
Whitelighter
Posts: 4,123
|
Post by ljones on Jan 4, 2015 1:50:13 GMT -5
Phoebe and Cole were doomed from the beginning. Phoebe was too immature to face Cole's complex nature and situation. She was too immature to accept both the good and bad within him. In fact, she was too immature to face both the good and bad within herself. And I think Cole loved Phoebe too much. He had depended on her for everything TOO MUCH. I could say that he also failed to deal with the loss of Phoebe. But I also noticed that Piper shared a similar trait.
And let's face it. Phoebe and Cole's relationship probably would have lasted with better writing. Alas . . .
|
|
aggiefan12
Familiar
Hello all you happy people
Posts: 129
|
Post by aggiefan12 on Jan 15, 2015 19:32:22 GMT -5
When Julian read the script to Long Live the Queen he feared that was gonna be the end of his character but Kern told him that his character would return in Which Way Now. It was between 4 and 5 that Julian decided that he wanted to challenge himself more as an actor so when 5 came around that's when the changes happen. He felt like he was taking up too much focus on him and not on the sisters.
As for Phoebe and Cole yes it could've lasted if they would've worked on it.
|
|
ljones
Whitelighter
Posts: 4,123
|
Post by ljones on Jan 17, 2015 1:59:14 GMT -5
Probably because his character was more interesting (despite the crappy writing from Season 5). Come to think of it, the series began to rely upon other characters for its emotional punch, even after Julian McMahon's departure. At the same time, the sisters' characterizations really began to suffer.
|
|
|
|
Post by Chrisaholic on Jan 17, 2015 7:44:52 GMT -5
Probably because his character was more interesting (despite the crappy writing from Season 5). Come to think of it, the series began to rely upon other characters for its emotional punch, even after Julian McMahon's departure. At the same time, the sisters' characterizations really began to suffer. I so agree with you, especially with the start of S5 it seems to be that way. Because in S6, Chris's character was more interesting than the sisters'.  |
|
Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?"
Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,920
|
Post by Esmeralda on Jan 17, 2015 8:32:26 GMT -5
Interesting if you wanted to kill the lying, whining, murdering spoiled brat known as Chris...
But then I also wanted to kill the sisters and Leo in S6. There was no one worth watching in that season which is why I don't watch it..
At least in S8 you had Little Wyatt, Paige and Henry...
For me, after "Sleuthing with the Enemy" there was no Charmed One worth watching except for Paige in Season Four and Season Eight. No wonder I only have the first three seasons on DVD.
|
|
|
|
Post by Darkhorse Christian on Jan 17, 2015 23:52:09 GMT -5
Hope to God they don't actually do the "Phoebe/Cole getting back together" thing. I've already stated this, but I think it would be a huge step backwards for both of them. And it's no better if Coop has to die to make this happen either, because then you're just trading one narrative sin (cheating excused as a good thing just because it's a lead character doing it) for another (that die for our ship BS). |
|
Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?"
Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,920
|
Post by Esmeralda on Jan 18, 2015 0:17:22 GMT -5
I hope so, too. We can only pray that as has often happened, that comic cover is misleading...
|
|
ljones
Whitelighter
Posts: 4,123
|
Post by ljones on Jan 19, 2015 22:01:15 GMT -5
Interesting if you wanted to kill the lying, whining, murdering spoiled brat known as Chris...
Sounds like you're describing his parents, his aunts and former uncle-in-law.
Hope to God they don't actually do the "Phoebe/Cole getting back together" thing. I've already stated this, but I think it would be a huge step backwards for both of them. And it's no better if Coop has to die to make this happen either, because then you're just trading one narrative sin (cheating excused as a good thing just because it's a lead character doing it) for another (that die for our ship BS).
I hope that never happens in the comics. Cole and Phoebe should stay away from each other. It's best for them both.
|
|
|
|
Post by uncharmed on Feb 6, 2015 0:19:35 GMT -5
Phoebe and Cole definitely could have lasted in an alternate Season 4 or Season 3 timeline. No matter what Cole was, whether he was a mortal, a half-human/half-demonBalthazar, or a newly turned specie(full witch? Insert_Specie_With_Powers_Here) he and Phoebe deeply loved each other & their devotion was initially genuine(Before writers made the mess that are late S4 and full S5). Cole after all fell for her and changed on his own initiative once his humanity was awakened. He sacrificed everything, from his life to his old beliefs to do right by her, even when she was reluctant to be at his side. He helped save her sisters for her even with the knowledge she was fully(or so she thought) done with him. Being in love with her enhanced his(buried) selflessness. He was lighter, more free around her. Her being with him increased her sense of commitment and balanced her free spirit with much needed seriousness. I also think being with him has made her more intuitive and aware of humanity's darker side. I'm watching S3 right now and the difference with S3PhoebeWithCole and S1-2 reckless irresponsible man-lusting Phoebe is striking. Of course it all went to hell in the end because of stupid show decisions but I thought the first two Cole/Phoebe years were marked with character growth for both. In a true opposites attract fashion they were each other's yin and yang-balanced their flaws and qualities.
If Cole had told Phoebe he was being taken by the Source. If the sisters had found out he was being possessed(I have a feeling that Prue would have figured it out had she been alive) early on. If Old Phoebe had revealed Cole's Source infection to the sisters. If Phoebe had agreed with Cole's decision to transfer the Source's essence to the wizard. If instead of going the vanquishing route for Cole the sisters had investigated more and found a way to save him. I think the sisters might have been more receptive( Well Piper and Phoebe) had the S3(can't recall the episode) possession episode never taken place. I think by the end of S4 they were just so tired of the endless 'Oh just another Cole possession/dark side infection episode' they didn't want to bother anymore(which I found repulsive as one cannot be faulted for being possessed) and lazily convinced themselves that Cole's demonic past by doomed to be his future no matter what. So they took the easy route.
By Season 5, however, it was too late. Cole turned into a suicidal stalker and Phoebe became a bitter puke-worthy self-projectionist others-blaming men lusting(again..sighs)whore. Both characters regressed so much by their relationship flunk(undermining their efforts and personal growth) that throwing them together again would just feel like too much a hassle. Like Leo and Piper's unnecessary obstacles in later seasons just for the sake of 'drama'. Seriously. The whole 'gone a lot' in S1-2 & witch/whitelighter forbidden love obstacles with the occasional bickering were FINE. Problematic so realistic enough that we don't get a fake fairy-tale romance yet not too problematic that we just don't want them to bother anymore. Unfortunately, much like Phoebe and Cole in S5, Leo and Piper ended up having so much tensions their relationship was forever soiled. And both Leo and Piper like Phoebe and Cole regressed when their relationship crumbled. Blergh.
If Cole needed to die because of the actor leaving the show then he should have stayed dead after S4 and writers should have made the sisters know about the possession. Maybe instead of the sisters vanquishing Cole, Cole could have(somehow) found a way to overtake the Source just for long enough to kill himself/sacrifice his life so that the sisters don't have to finish him off. Cole could have died tragically(well he sort of did but...) and Phoebe could have been truly pregnant with their non-Source child. Or not. Anyway after Cole's death I'd rather Phoebe had remained single. In mourning for a while but eventually accepting of his death and content in her own-single-way. Learning to re-frame her self-fulfillment. That would have been better for her character than the needy lusting desperate for kids/husband crap we got after Cole. And the cheap Coop storyline...I found Coop as much of a stalker as S5 Cole. The cupid practically chased her around, couldn't take no for an answer. So ****** what if Phoebe didn't want to give love or him a try? Not his business. He doesn't own her. And for crying out loud, there are many ways to be happy without a ring on the finger, and many ways to have love without romance. The whole 'women neeeeeeeeed a family/romantic love to be fulfilled is loads of ****'. Alas, the writers probably in their narrow thinking were blind to that. It is why we got the whole 'happily ever after' crapilogue with Paige and Phoebe wed to unexplored boring guys just so they could have families with forgettable kids.
Cole and Phoebe deserved each other in a positive way in Season 3 and 4. Sadly they deserved each other in a very very negative way from Season 5 and forward.
|
|
|
|
Post by Melinda Halliwell on Feb 6, 2015 6:42:32 GMT -5
Good estimation of those two here. Bang on the nail about them and kinder similiar in parts to the post I submitted here sometime ago.
|
|
