ljones
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Post by ljones on Feb 17, 2015 1:11:33 GMT -5
The only other time Cole was possessed occurred during the S4 episode, "A Paige from the Past". And Phoebe was possessed in that episode, as well.
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Post by Darkhorse Christian on Feb 17, 2015 17:08:16 GMT -5
The only other time Cole was possessed occurred during the S4 episode, "A Paige from the Past". And Phoebe was possessed in that episode, as well. She's referring the time where Raynor cast a spell to make his power overwhelm him and force him to kill a witch. |
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Mar 6, 2015 1:44:24 GMT -5
The only other time Cole was possessed occurred during the S4 episode, "A Paige from the Past". And Phoebe was possessed in that episode, as well. She's referring the time where Raynor cast a spell to make his power overwhelm him and force him to kill a witch. Cole was a victim of telepathic manipulation. Once again . . . Julian McMahon didn't know about "NIP/TUCK" until several days after he had shot his last "CHARMED" episode, the crapfest known as "Centennial Charmed". |
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Post by Darkhorse Christian on Mar 6, 2015 16:10:28 GMT -5
Once again . . . Julian McMahon didn't know about "NIP/TUCK" until several days after he had shot his last "CHARMED" episode, the crapfest known as "Centennial Charmed". Dunno if uncharmed saw the posts confirming that, as she's new. Just came in last month. In any case, she didn't say anything about Nip/Tuck—just about Julian leaving Charmed. I get that repeating such a detail can be tiresome, but getting uptight about it whenever you think you have to doesn't help much. (That's assuming I read your tone right: if I didn't I apologize.) |
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Mar 9, 2015 3:58:16 GMT -5
Once again . . . Julian McMahon didn't know about "NIP/TUCK" until several days after he had shot his last "CHARMED" episode, the crapfest known as "Centennial Charmed". Dunno if uncharmed saw the posts confirming that, as she's new. Just came in last month. In any case, she didn't say anything about Nip/Tuck—just about Julian leaving Charmed. I get that repeating such a detail can be tiresome, but getting uptight about it whenever you think you have to doesn't help much. (That's assuming I read your tone right: if I didn't I apologize.) I accept your apology. |
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Post by uncharmed on Mar 11, 2015 19:20:13 GMT -5
I was referring to the S3 episode with Raynor, yes. Possession, telepathic manipulation...at core they do the same thing, which is taking control of someone's mind or emotions, making the actions of the 'infected one' against their will. Or at least make them do something they wouldn't normally do in their right state of mind. Which is why I place no blame on Cole for the actions taken under such 'infections'. Point is, I think the Halliwells got tired of too many 'Cole dark side infections' episodes they just stopped trying to trust him, which I believe to be an error. If he didn't have his demonic past, the sisters would have excused his actions the way they excused theirs. They, like Leo, were shown to judge more by the past than the present.
About Julian M. leaving for some 'NIP/TUCK' thing (which I had to Google to know what is was), I wasn't even aware he left for other movies/shows. I just assumed he got bored by Charmed and wanted an out, and that the writers thought the only way to do that was by wrecking his character to avoid a long 'Phoebe in mourning' session. In any scenario, it was a poor decision to keep him alive after S4. If Phoebe would have found out about the source possession in S5, would an alive!Cole had forgiven her for thinking(once again) the worst of him?
For the information of anyone interacting with me in the future, I know very little about Charmed cast details. Reading about the lives of famous people is not an activity I find fascinating.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2015 11:06:17 GMT -5
I wasn't even aware he left for other movies/shows. I just assumed he got bored by Charmed and wanted an out Well, many think it's a bit of both. He supposedly wanted to do other things, but it's often believed that he thought Cole's story was over and that he had become repetitious. Whether that actually came from Julian or whether the fans were projecting, I dunno. |
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Mar 16, 2015 21:10:32 GMT -5
This is not a very good reflection of their characters. I wonder if Brad Kern was aware of this.
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Post by outrage on Apr 13, 2015 12:20:21 GMT -5
Outside of real life context for the show, yes, I do believe the relationship had potential to last, if only the Charmed ones weren't complete hypocrites concerning Cole and if Phoebe looked past herself back in Season 4.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2015 14:10:43 GMT -5
If they accepted him trying to redeem himself in season 5, maybe. But he'd help them and innocents time and time again and still be called evil by the sisters. There's no winning with the Halliwells sometimes.
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Nimue
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Post by Nimue on Apr 18, 2015 14:44:05 GMT -5
I must admit, I'm no longer a Phoebe/Cole shipper, something that really pains me. Phoebe (and the other Halliwells), were never capable of accepting that people are three-dimensional, complex beings who cannot be made to fit into neat, tidy boxes. They could never accept that people have many layers, and that you just can't see things in a black-and-white manner, especially with someone like Cole who has such a heavy past. Had the writers been smart enough to evolve beyond this mentallity, and as such had the sisters grown up as well, then Phoebe and Cole would have been one of the most interesting couples on the show, and probably could have lasted. And this doesn't just apply to Phoebe and Cole, it goes for everyone on the show.
I've just thought of something else: is it possible that this black-and-white morality the sisters had was really a defense mechanism (let's ignore the bad writing for a second), something they did, consciously or unconsciously, to psychologically protect themselves? Was this just a way to make their jobs easier, to ignore how difficult things could get? Does it make things easier to just see them in a one-dimensional light, or on the contrary does it just make things harder, especially when someone like Cole turned up, and Leo started going down a dark path? Did it make it easier for Brendan Rowe, the half-warlock from Season 1?
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Post by Melinda Halliwell on Apr 18, 2015 15:53:17 GMT -5
I must admit, I'm no longer a Phoebe/Cole shipper, something that really pains me. Phoebe (and the other Halliwells), were never capable of accepting that people are three-dimensional, complex beings who cannot be made to fit into neat, tidy boxes. They could never accept that people have many layers, and that you just can't see things in a black-and-white manner, especially with someone like Cole who has such a heavy past. Had the writers been smart enough to evolve beyond this mentallity, and as such had the sisters grown up as well, then Phoebe and Cole would have been one of the most interesting couples on the show, and probably could have lasted. And this doesn't just apply to Phoebe and Cole, it goes for everyone on the show.
I've just thought of something else: is it possible that this black-and-white morality the sisters had was really a defense mechanism (let's ignore the bad writing for a second), something they did, consciously or unconsciously, to psychologically protect themselves? Was this just a way to make their jobs easier, to ignore how difficult things could get? Does it make things easier to just see them in a one-dimensional light, or on the contrary does it just make things harder, especially when someone like Cole turned up, and Leo started going down a dark path? Did it make it easier for Brendan Rowe, the half-warlock from Season 1? Couldn't agree with you more nimue. Your comment sits right bang on the head there. Sometimes some people have bad luck with certain things which they experience multiple times like men cheating on them for e.g. or close friends and relatives dieing near one another and the easiest way they cope with them is closing themselves of like Phoebe did with love thinking "cause all men cheat on me or people die all the time I won't bother looking for love or just accept that il'll be alone most of my life" instead of seeing the bigger picture that that's not just the case because it's their own fears blinding them which they can't face up to as it's much easier accepting those things been that it's too painful doing so in the first place because so much has happened already. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2015 16:57:00 GMT -5
The problem for me, well one of the problems anyway, lay in the attitude they had towards powers. Cole, you have demonic powers, therefore they're evil, therefore you're evil. WHA?! Not only does that contradict what they've said about powers in episodes like "Lost and Bound" and "Siren Song"... it also contradicts Cole's whole damn story! They had no problem with him using demonic powers to help them and save people back when he was Bethazor and now all of a sudden it makes him automatically evil whether he likes it or not? Cole: "I can't be good, I won't be evil. What do you want from me?"Good question Cole, good question. Honestly, if Cole had gotten away like he had intended to in A Witch's Tail pt2, he might have stood a chance at something resembling redemption. He needed to get away from the Halliwells and focus on doing some good. As for the whole black-white defense mechanism thing, yeah I think there's definitely something to that. The sisters hid behind their "good" label all the time. We're the Charmed Ones, just look at all the good we've done. They used it constantly as an excuse to get away with some seriously shady B.S. But all of it's okay... because they're goooooood  ...  |
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Post by Melinda Halliwell on Apr 18, 2015 17:19:22 GMT -5
The problem for me, well one of the problems anyway, lay in the attitude they had towards powers. Cole, you have demonic powers, therefore they're evil, therefore you're evil. WHA?! Not only does that contradict what they've said about powers in episodes like "Lost and Bound" and "Siren Song"... it also contradicts Cole's whole damn story! Exactly and Paige said in 'Little Shop Of Horrors' also that been born evil didn't necessarily mean you'd turn out like that it was your actions throughout life and how you used your powers which did do and they saved the manticore baby so that contradicted things there also. They had no problem with him using demonic powers to help them and save people back when he was Bethazor and now all of a sudden it makes him automatically evil whether he likes it or not? Cole: "I can't be good, I won't be evil. What do you want from me?"Good question Cole, good question. Honestly, if Cole had gotten away like he had intended to in A Witch's Tail pt2, he might have stood a chance at something resembling redemption. He needed to get away from the Halliwells and focus on doing some good. He should've gone away then and done pro bono work elsewhere maybe and used his powers to help people or better of still stayed dead after 'Long Live Queen' least then something good would've come out from him in the end. As for the whole black-white defense mechanism thing, yeah I think there's definitely something to that. The sisters hid behind their "good" label all the time. We're the Charmed Ones, just look at all the good we've done. They used it constantly as an excuse to get away with some seriously shady B.S. But all of it's okay... because they're goooooood ... Which's why I didn't like the sisters then except Paige sometimes after season 4 as that's when I stopped caring about them really and why they should've been taken down a peg or two actually. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2015 9:07:02 GMT -5
Absolutely. I think they could have gone two ways with Cole that might have done him some good:
1) As you say, just let him end at Long Live the Queen, by far his best death scene.
2) Have him leave as he intended in A Witch's Tail and take him into his own "Angel"-esque spin off. Obviously, this would only be possible if Julian didn't still want to leave. But imagining he didn't, many fans found him far more interesting than the sisters so he could carry his own show IMO. He could develop as a character in his own right again away from revolving around Phoebe all the time. Kern was after a spin off at that point anyway and I think a Cole series would have far more potential than his Mermaid idea. Obviously he couldn't be invincible, but you could find a way to somehow make him less powerful, or alternatively give him some sort of Kryptonite style weakness.
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Post by Darkhorse Christian on Apr 20, 2015 14:47:55 GMT -5
Hell, Mermaid girl could've been like a second main character with Cole being the lead main and his development into good as his own man being the primary theme of the new show.
As for the powers…that's easy, have a villain use a specially-enchanted athame that circumvents and distorts or disables powers. Similar business worked for the comics, right?
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Post by Melinda Halliwell on Apr 20, 2015 17:37:53 GMT -5
Absolutely. I think they could have gone two ways with Cole that might have done him some good: 1) As you say, just let him end at Long Live the Queen, by far his best death scene. 2) Have him leave as he intended in A Witch's Tail and take him into his own "Angel"-esque spin off. Obviously, this would only be possible if Julian didn't still want to leave. But imagining he didn't, many fans found him far more interesting than the sisters so he could carry his own show IMO. He could develop as a character in his own right again away from revolving around Phoebe all the time. Kern was after a spin off at that point anyway and I think a Cole series would have far more potential than his Mermaid idea. Obviously he couldn't be invincible, but you could find a way to somehow make him less powerful, or alternatively give him some sort of Kryptonite style weakness. The 2nd one is kinder what happens to Cole in my fanfiction series actually at the end of 'A Witch's Tail' when he leaves San Francisco after realising he can't get his wife Mel back Piper's future daughter who took Phoebe's place power wise when she died along with Prue the previous year because of what happened to him as the Source etc although they do find out about that a lot earlier and try to save him unsuccessfully. The two part amicably and get divorced then Mel hears about Cole later on through the grapevine doing pro bono work and using his powers to help people which pleases her etc and does Cole's character justice I think instead of him going mad like he did originally which was definately wrong totally. |
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Post by Chrisaholic on Apr 21, 2015 8:45:43 GMT -5
Looking back now and with several reruns in between, I can see that they should have done better with Cole. I found it good that he briefly returned in S7, yet all what had happened before.  I am more disappointed in the sisters than Cole lately. Their attitude went away with him.  |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2015 19:56:08 GMT -5
Also just in regards to his demise in season 5, it never made sense to me that he became Belthazor again.
Alpha said that Avatars aren't effected by the spell. Well, Cole is an avatar at this point, so why did it change him? Alpha even begged him to undo what he'd done, so he must have still been an avatar, cuz I'm pretty sure Belthazor couldn't bend reality!
It was a blatant and sloppy way of retconning his invincibility...which never should have been a thing in the first place.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on May 15, 2015 17:11:00 GMT -5
In my series of AU fan fiction, Phoebe and Cole never reconciled as a couple. Nor did I kill off Cole, remove his powers or transform him into some kind of "angel" or whitelighter. Matrimonial wise, Cole and Phoebe went their separate ways, but eventually attain some kind of peace with each other. Eventually. It took them a while. And Cole remained in San Francisco . . . as a half-demon. He also continued his profession as an attorney and did not return to any evil activities.
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I am more disappointed in the sisters than Cole lately. Their attitude went away with him. 