ljones
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Post by ljones on Nov 18, 2007 20:28:21 GMT -5
I think Kern & Company did know about Julian's forthcoming departure. They just chose a lousy way to write Cole off the show. There were many other ways they could have written Cole out. And I think this is why a good number of fans were disenchanted with the "Cole goes crazy" storyline and "Centennial Charmed" episode. |
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colehellsangel
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Post by colehellsangel on Nov 18, 2007 22:30:46 GMT -5
I think Kern & Company did know about Julian's forthcoming departure. They just chose a lousy way to write Cole off the show. There were many other ways they could have written Cole out. Ah I see, I thought someone said earlier that it was not anticipated, but yeah I agree that they could have chosen a lot less dramatic and disappointing way to write him off if it was really necessary to do so at all. |
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ljones
Whitelighter
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Post by ljones on Nov 19, 2007 13:31:08 GMT -5
They could have given him a dramatic, but better written send-off.
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Post by marienomad on Nov 19, 2007 13:58:10 GMT -5
Yes, like him going off to find himself. Not let's kill himself because he went crazy. I mean, when Leo went crazy and killed an elder, did the sisters care? No!
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Post by whitelightertony on Nov 22, 2007 3:07:57 GMT -5
Or he could have become an Avatar.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Nov 23, 2007 21:59:24 GMT -5
Yes, like him going off to find himself. Not let's kill himself because he went crazy. I mean, when Leo went crazy and killed an elder, did the sisters care? No! And as whitelightertony had indicated, Leo also followed in Cole's footsteps by becoming an Avatar, and urged them to take part in that abmysal plan of the Avatars'. Yet, the Charmed Ones welcomed him back into their arms. Hypocrites! |
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Post by whitelightertony on Nov 24, 2007 7:06:54 GMT -5
Well, to be fair, Leo didn't start off his life as evil.
He was originally a mortal, then became a whitelighter -- a force of Good.
So the Charmed Ones understandably viewed Leo as having been corrupted by Evil. And for Piper, it was her husband (and the father of her sons), whom she'd always viewed as someone good.
Counter this with the Phoebe/Cole relationship. Cole was born possessing a dual identity, one half of which (Belthazor) was inherently evil. Phoebe fell in love with Cole in spite of this fact, and she only committed to him romantically when Cole promised to fight against Evil. So, from Phoebe's perspective, Cole's turn in Season 4 and Season 5 was a complete betrayal of that commitment he'd made to help vanquish Evil.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Nov 24, 2007 18:53:28 GMT -5
Well, to be fair, Leo didn't start off his life as evil. He was originally a mortal, then became a whitelighter -- a force of Good. So the Charmed Ones understandably viewed Leo as having been corrupted by Evil. And for Piper, it was her husband (and the father of her sons), whom she'd always viewed as someone good. Counter this with the Phoebe/Cole relationship. Cole was born possessing a dual identity, one half of which (Belthazor) was inherently evil. Phoebe fell in love with Cole in spite of this fact, and she only committed to him romantically when Cole promised to fight against Evil. So, from Phoebe's perspective, Cole's turn in Season 4 and Season 5 was a complete betrayal of that commitment he'd made to help vanquish Evil. That the Charmed Ones judged Leo differently because of how he had started his life, makes their attitude toward him even more hypocritical in my eyes. Apparently, first impressions mattered more to them, despite the fact that Leo had committed an act of evil himself in late Season 6. And considering that the sisters were incapable of seeing some of their own actions as evil or questionable leaves me with nothing but contempt toward them. As I had stated before . . . hypocrites. |
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Post by whitelightertony on Nov 24, 2007 21:55:46 GMT -5
Not just how Leo started his life, but how he continued to live his life. For 62 years, Leo was a paragon of Good. As you pointed out, he didn't turn to the dark side until late-Season 6. So were Leo's eight decades of good deeds supposed to be completely discounted just because he lost his way?
Cole had a much different life path. He had been responsible for hundreds - - maybe even thousands - - of deaths for more than a century. He finally redeemed himself by helping to take down The Source (and then was victimized by The Source, who possessed him)...and what does he go and do? He embarks on a single-minded quest to win Phoebe back at all costs.
As handsome as Julian is, if Cole (possessing a plethora of unpredictable powers) began to stalk me after returning from the Demonic Wasteland, I'd probably be a wee bit freaked out, too.
What I'd like to see, in a reunion movie, is to have Cole be allowed to return from Limbo (through some magical loophole), and have him and Phoebe reach a true reconciliation of mutual forgiveness (even though they can never reclaim the love they once had)...something that should have been done back in Season 5.
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Post by power321 on Nov 24, 2007 22:54:58 GMT -5
it wouldve been great if they ended up together if he hadnt killed people! but Coop and Phoebe are meant for each other. if only we knew his last name....or is he now Coop Halliwell?  ;D |
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Post by whitelightertony on Nov 24, 2007 23:18:21 GMT -5
They never told us Coop's last name.
I would imagine Coop kept his family's name, and Phoebe kept the last name of "Halliwell," especially for purposes of publishing her column and her future novel.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Nov 25, 2007 2:03:25 GMT -5
But that doesn't mean that Leo should receive forgiveness and Cole shouldn't.
So what if Leo had spent 60 years of being some d**n do-gooder? Despite all of that, he still ended up proving that he was capable of great darkness. So what if Cole had spent 100 years of evil? He had proven that he was capable of great good.
Who the hell cares about their past? Why in the hell should we? If the sisters were willing to forgive or even give Leo one or many chances, they could have done the same for Cole. Especially when he was trying his level best to change his life, after all the Source had done to him . . . despite Phoebe constantly harranging him about being evil. Are you telling me that it was okay for the sisters to play favoritism and indulge in their bigotry in regard to dealing with both Leo and Cole's actions?
Sorry, I don't think that way. If Leo could be forgiven, so could Cole. What the hell is wrong with that?
If you're going to answer that Leo's background gives him the right to be forgiven, then that tells me that Kern and his writers are nothing but hypocrites and that they expect the viewers to have the same narrow-minded mentality.
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Post by whitelightertony on Nov 25, 2007 4:57:26 GMT -5
Well, once The Source was out of his body, what did Cole actually do to earn or warrant forgiveness from the sisters (aside from stalking Phoebe or killing mortals)?
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colehellsangel
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Post by colehellsangel on Nov 25, 2007 16:17:41 GMT -5
But that doesn't mean that Leo should receive forgiveness and Cole shouldn't. So what if Leo had spent 60 years of being some d**n do-gooder? Despite all of that, he still ended up proving that he was capable of great darkness. So what if Cole had spent 100 years of evil? He had proven that he was capable of great good. Who the hell cares about their past? Why in the hell should we? If the sisters were willing to forgive or even give Leo one or many chances, they could have done the same for Cole. Especially when he was trying his level best to change his life, after all the Source had done to him . . . despite Phoebe constantly harranging him about being evil. Are you telling me that it was okay for the sisters to play favoritism and indulge in their bigotry in regard to dealing with both Leo and Cole's actions? Sorry, I don't think that way. If Leo could be forgiven, so could Cole. What the hell is wrong with that? If you're going to answer that Leo's background gives him the right to be forgiven, then that tells me that Kern and his writers are nothing but hypocrites and that they expect the viewers to have the same narrow-minded mentality. As harsh as this did not need to sound, I agree. Both Leo and Cole deserved forgiveness for what they did. Both of them did not become what they did willingly. Leo killed Gideon because he threatened his son's life, any father would have done the same the guilty party being friend or foe. He then became an avatar because Piper and Phoebe were killed and Whitelighters can not heal the dead but the avatars could. He needed the powers to heal his wife and sister-in-law. Cole was as I stated before possessed unwillingly by the source and his human half had control over one thing alone, and thats his love for Phoebe. Both of them were unwillingly turned to a life they did not initially want. Cole could have survived if the girls had tried to help him just as they helped Leo survive. |
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Post by whitelightertony on Nov 25, 2007 17:25:06 GMT -5
And maybe the girls (in Season 5) wouldn't have listened to Cole no matter what he tried to do?
But that doesn't change the fact that Cole went about it ALL WRONG when he returned from the Wasteland in early-Season 5.
His intentions may have been good (to protect Phoebe), but he didn't seem to grasp the concept that the Halliwells would be skeptical of any of his attempts in light of what happened during Season 4.
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colehellsangel
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Post by colehellsangel on Nov 25, 2007 19:05:18 GMT -5
I am confused, his attempts to what? I was talking about the girls trying to help him by stripping the source from him.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Nov 26, 2007 1:19:11 GMT -5
Well, if the Halliwells had decided to use their brains back in Season 4, perhaps they could have discovered that Cole had been a victim of demonic possession. And perhaps none of the incidents of Season 5 would have happened.
And if the Halliwells were capable of realizing that Cole was suicidal and probably in a state of depression in Season 5, why was it so impossible for them to genuinely try to help him?
They tried to help Piper back in early Season 4, when she went overboard, following Prue's death. And she had ended up becoming a danger to them all.
All of them have proven how dangerous they could be while having an emotional breakdown over any kind of loss. Yet, Cole was the only one who did not receive any sympathy or help . . . all because of his past as a demonic assassin. Apparently in the Halliwells' eyes, one has to have a spotless or nearly spotless past in order to receive help when truly needed.
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colehellsangel
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Post by colehellsangel on Nov 26, 2007 1:50:03 GMT -5
Well, if the Halliwells had decided to use their brains back in Season 4, perhaps they could have discovered that Cole had been a victim of demonic possession. And perhaps none of the incidents of Season 5 would have happened. And if the Halliwells were capable of realizing that Cole was suicidal and probably in a state of depression in Season 5, why was it so impossible for them to genuinely try to help him? They tried to help Piper back in early Season 4, when she went overboard, following Prue's death. And she had ended up becoming a danger to them all. All of them have proven how dangerous they could be while having an emotional breakdown over any kind of loss. Yet, Cole was the only one who did not receive any sympathy or help . . . all because of his past as a demonic assassin. Apparently in the Halliwells' eyes, one has to have a spotless or nearly spotless past in order to receive help when truly needed. Yeah my thoughts exactly, you have left me with nothing to add.  |
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Post by vandergraafk on Nov 26, 2007 19:54:24 GMT -5
The only way to resolve this, I fear, is to examine scene by scene everything that transpired during the first half of season 5. Alas, I don't think even that will persuade anyone. Still, if one does take the time to examine this, as I have, the problem seems to boil down to this:
During Season 5, Cole was not just a neutral by-stander whom the Charmed Ones could either ignore at leisure or, in a demon-free moment, take the time to analyze in light of what happened at the end of Season 4. By and large, Cole was in the thick of events for most of the first half of this season. What the Charmed Ones did was to "appreciate" him in light of their past experience with him as filtered through individual biases.
Phoebe look at everything Cole did through essentially two filters: a betrayed lover who had committed herself thoroughly to the man she loved only to discover that she had become Queen of the Underworld, carrying the Source's demonic seed.
Piper looked at Cole as someone who had betrayed both her trust and her sister's and had nearly brought about the destruction of her last remaining full-blooded sister.
Paige, though distrustful from the outset about Cole, continues to not know enough about him and tries in her own narrow way to assess him. She alone of the Charmed Ones is willing to set aside her prejudices and give him a fair shake (Sympathy for the Demon). Ultimately, her willingness to judge Cole based on his Season 5 actions fails when she becomes the target of his misguided attempt to win back Phoebe.
Pre-occupied with dealing with the new challenges posed by Cole, the Charmed Ones hardly had an opportunity to deal with the past. Besides, Cole apparently was well-aware of what had happened to him, but never ventured to ask for an opportunity to explain these events from his view. Certainly, there was a moment or two. At the end of A Witch's Tale or during Siren Song when an explanation might have mattered. Cole was not very forthcoming either and, as a result, a golden opportunity was squandered.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Nov 26, 2007 21:43:32 GMT -5
Golden moments were squandered by both Cole and the Charmed Ones.
Cole squandered that moment when he had failed to inform the sisters what really happened to him in Season 4. Instead, he wasted his time in trying to win back Phoebe's love with action.
The Halliwells squandered their moment, when they had failed to use their brains and try to investigate on how he had become the Source. If one of the sisters or Leo had ended up possessed by the Source instead of Cole, I suspect that they would have moved heaven and earth to learn what really happened. But because it happened to Cole, they didn't bother.
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;D
