ljones
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Post by ljones on Nov 30, 2007 17:09:44 GMT -5
This just tells me that Leo . . . or the writer who had put those words into his mouth . . . was an idiot. Or a moron. Take your pick. Belthazor was not some evil entity that took over the "innocent" Cole Turner. Belthazor and Cole were the same individual. Cole/Belthazor was a human/demon hybrid. Nothing more, nothing less. The stripping of his demonic half in "Black As Cole", only made Cole half the individual he truly was. Besides, one doesn't have to be half-human, half-demon to have both good and evil within you. You can be a human, a whitelighter, or a human/whitelighter hybrid to have both good and evil within. The Halliwells and Leo all proved that they can be just as monsterous as those they claim to fight. The problem is that the show's writers and Brad seemed scared to fully accept this - except with Prue's character in "Death Takes a Halliwell". Ok point taken, but the name calling I believed to be unnecessary. I understand what you are saying completely. But either way Cole was a good guy for while in season four and even after becoming evil again and even after he died for good in Centennial Charmed, he always loved Phoebe. I am trying to focus on the good in him here on my side of this conversation. I understand what you're saying. I perfectly believe that Cole had the ability to be good - regardless of what he was. Just as I believe that the sisters and Leo had the ability to be evil. You have to understand. I never bought the "demons are inherently evil" line. Or that Cole had the potential to be good, because of his human heritage. That all seemed too one-dimensional and cliched to me. I had hoped - with Cole's introduction - that the series would eventually evolve beyond that kind of thinking . . . at least for the sisters and Leo. Unfortunately, I ended up being disappointed. And for the writers to have Leo state that Belthazor was some kind of evil entity that took over the innocent Cole really seemed hard to believe. Even as a human, Cole was completely capable of embracing evil, like the Halliwells and Leo. |
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Post by vandergraafk on Nov 30, 2007 19:42:37 GMT -5
Well, I don't have any insider information. If we take Baccara's statement seriously, then Cole will become the most powerful demon of all time in a rather short amount of time. However, I would note that Charmed always dealt in possible futures that may or may not materialize. Cole, himself, at this point does not aspire to be the King of the Underworld.
In Sam I Am, Cole laments to Phoebe that he cannot ever seem to please her. He notes, "I can't do good, I won't do evil" and suggests that not only does she not have the foggiest idea what is on his mind, but her definition of "good" leaves little room for him. Prior to this Cole has done several "good" deeds - helping Phoebe in A Witch's Tale, saving a burning woman in Siren Song, rescuing Phoebe (again) in Happily Ever After and (again) in Witches in Tights - but none of these seemed to persuade Phoebe or her sisters since sometimes things did not go perfectly as planned (he strangles Phoebe in Siren Song). On balance, though, one must admit that Cole was trying.
Yes, Cole has a tremendous array of powers culled from the demonic wasteland. But, he generally refuses to use these to aid and abet a demonic revival. Indeed, when he does use them - Sam I Am and beyond - they are generally used to provoke an attack by the Charmed Ones in order that they might vanquish him.
One cannot argue that Cole acted in this "morally ambiguous" manner because of his half-human, half-demon nature. In Season 5, he was a magical creature suffused with so many powers that he became an attractive candidate for the Avatar pitch. Maybe the original Avatar story arc with Cole at its centerpiece might have brought us back to "Cole is evil". Then, again, I can certainly envision a scenario where Cole breaks with the Avatars as he too realizes their totalitarian objectives.
For me, this Cole remains the most fascinating and the most frustrating. Fascinating obviously because Cole is working through devilishly difficult issues that do not easily resolve themselves into simple black and whites. He is shade of grey writ large. Frustating it is, though, because the story arc ends too abruptly with the exodus of Julian McMahon. Where Cole ends up, of course, we learn in Seven Year Witch. But that is an ending predicated on the events in Centennial Charmed. Imagine Cole's character without Centennial Charmed.
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colehellsangel
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Post by colehellsangel on Nov 30, 2007 22:41:08 GMT -5
Ok point taken, but the name calling I believed to be unnecessary. I understand what you are saying completely. But either way Cole was a good guy for while in season four and even after becoming evil again and even after he died for good in Centennial Charmed, he always loved Phoebe. I am trying to focus on the good in him here on my side of this conversation. I understand what you're saying. I perfectly believe that Cole had the ability to be good - regardless of what he was. Just as I believe that the sisters and Leo had the ability to be evil. You have to understand. I never bought the "demons are inherently evil" line. Or that Cole had the potential to be good, because of his human heritage. That all seemed too one-dimensional and cliched to me. I had hoped - with Cole's introduction - that the series would eventually evolve beyond that kind of thinking . . . at least for the sisters and Leo. Unfortunately, I ended up being disappointed. And for the writers to have Leo state that Belthazor was some kind of evil entity that took over the innocent Cole really seemed hard to believe. Even as a human, Cole was completely capable of embracing evil, like the Halliwells and Leo. I don't think he has the ability to be good just because he is part human. I believe what made him good was Phoebe's love and his love for her. He even stated in his sweet letter at the end of Womb Radier"I was dead before I knew you, I was born the day you loved me. And my love for you will keep me alive forever."Its the power of love that made him good for as long as he was. Its stated in Hell Hath No Fury that Cole had many victims being an over a century old demon. He did a lot of killing regardless of his Human half. It seemed that he was quite content with being evil and taking innocent lives which was mostly likely also highly influenced by being raised only by his demon mother. But when he meets Phoebe it's like be becomes a new person, and now wants to embrace more of his human half, the half of him thats capable of love. What I am saying is that his love for Phoebe is what fed his human half and kept it alive and dominant. Even after he was possessed by the Source, the one part of his human half it did not consume was his love for her. |
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Post by vandergraafk on Nov 30, 2007 22:47:58 GMT -5
That this does not apply to the Cole in Season 5 seems obvious. However, the absence of that love in Season 5 and the ever dimming prospects that Cole could reclaim it might well have driven Cole to despair and eventual suicide by witch.
But thanks for the excellent quote from Womb Raider.
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colehellsangel
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Post by colehellsangel on Dec 1, 2007 1:03:43 GMT -5
That this does not apply to the Cole in Season 5 seems obvious. However, the absence of that love in Season 5 and the ever dimming prospects that Cole could reclaim it might well have driven Cole to despair and eventual suicide by witch. But thanks for the excellent quote from Womb Raider. Ok you are welcome. And yes perhaps in Season five all that was lost but in season four I think he still had a chance. |
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Dec 1, 2007 1:11:55 GMT -5
With the reasoning obvious being the loss of Phoebe's love, the b*tch! I truly wish Kern had figured a different way to end their story; it would've made so many people feel so differently about Phoebe. Well, until she started her "sperm-donor" hunt... How he could turn such wonderful characters into such self-centered b*tches I'll never know. And how Producers Alyssa and Holly could let him is just as much of a mystery to me.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Dec 1, 2007 1:22:33 GMT -5
Ok point taken, but the name calling I believed to be unnecessary. I understand what you are saying completely. But either way Cole was a good guy for while in season four and even after becoming evil again and even after he died for good in Centennial Charmed, he always loved Phoebe. I am trying to focus on the good in him here on my side of this conversation. I understand what you're saying. I perfectly believe that Cole had the ability to be good - regardless of what he was. Just as I believe that the sisters and Leo had the ability to be evil. You have to understand. I never bought the "demons are inherently evil" line. Or that Cole had the potential to be good, because of his human heritage. That all seemed too one-dimensional and cliched to me. I had hoped - with Cole's introduction - that the series would eventually evolve beyond that kind of thinking . . . at least for the sisters and Leo. Unfortunately, I ended up being disappointed. And for the writers to have Leo state that Belthazor was some kind of evil entity that took over the innocent Cole really seemed hard to believe. Even as a human, Cole was completely capable of embracing evil, like the Halliwells and Leo. No, you didn't, but Kern did. He took some fantastically wonderful fully-formed characters who were both good and evil and changed them into caracatures of themselves, with the whole world black and white and the sisters and Leo becoming black. If he could've made them both human--both good and evil--no matter if they were demons or mortals or angels--the characters would've been more interesting. This character assassination is the worst of Kern's many crimes against our show, starting with forcing the middle child to act like the oldest; the baby to act like the middle and an Only to act like the baby, when an Only Child is more like the Oldest. Ages mean nothing; how you were raised does. Changing that didn't freshen the show; it killed the wonderful characters we'd come to love in the first three seasons putting pure strangers who weren't as noble, weren't as loveable in their places. Which answers the question this thread asks. With the way he had them set up, no, they could not have lasted. Otherwise Phoebe wouldn't be free to be a sl*t with all of the hunky male guest stars, the way the WB thought teenagers wanted to see females behave. |
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Post by caboosegirl on Dec 1, 2007 3:07:59 GMT -5
 Well what I think is that they could have if they just talked to one other and stop with the I hate you things back and forth.
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colehellsangel
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Post by colehellsangel on Dec 1, 2007 16:18:51 GMT -5
I understand what you're saying. I perfectly believe that Cole had the ability to be good - regardless of what he was. Just as I believe that the sisters and Leo had the ability to be evil. You have to understand. I never bought the "demons are inherently evil" line. Or that Cole had the potential to be good, because of his human heritage. That all seemed too one-dimensional and cliched to me. I had hoped - with Cole's introduction - that the series would eventually evolve beyond that kind of thinking . . . at least for the sisters and Leo. Unfortunately, I ended up being disappointed. And for the writers to have Leo state that Belthazor was some kind of evil entity that took over the innocent Cole really seemed hard to believe. Even as a human, Cole was completely capable of embracing evil, like the Halliwells and Leo. No, you didn't, but Kern did. He took some fantastically wonderful fully-formed characters who were both good and evil and changed them into caracatures of themselves, with the whole world black and white and the sisters and Leo becoming black. If he could've made them both human--both good and evil--no matter if they were demons or mortals or angels--the characters would've been more interesting. This character assassination is the worst of Kern's many crimes against our show, starting with forcing the middle child to act like the oldest; the baby to act like the middle and an Only to act like the baby, when an Only Child is more like the Oldest. Ages mean nothing; how you were raised does. Changing that didn't freshen the show; it killed the wonderful characters we'd come to love in the first three seasons putting pure strangers who weren't as noble, weren't as loveable in their places. Which answers the question this thread asks. With the way he had them set up, no, they could not have lasted. Otherwise Phoebe wouldn't be free to be a sl*t with all of the hunky male guest stars, the way the WB thought teenagers wanted to see females behave. I agree but I was asking in terms of the Charmed World not the writers. |
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Post by whitelightertony on Dec 2, 2007 0:11:01 GMT -5
Because if any of the sisters transforms into an evil entity permanently, the Power of Three will be broken and they will no longer have that advantage when trying to protect Innocents.
Oh, yeah...and because most people don't want to lose their family members forever.
I don't think Phoebe felt it was purely suicidal behavior...instead, she probably viewed it as Cole showing suicidal tendencies because he was "acting like a baby" because he couldn't have what he wanted (her love). She - - and Piper and Paige - - still would have chalked that up to a psychopathic personality who didn't deserve their help.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Dec 2, 2007 0:23:36 GMT -5
Psychopathic behavior, huh? Hmm . . . I could describe the Halliwells and Leo with that same term regarding a few matters.
Then what was the point of the lesson they had allegedly learn in "Apocalypse Not"?
Piper: What did you see?
Phoebe: Let's just get this over with.
(Strife starts the chant. Piper then starts their chant.)
Piper: "Sower of discord, your help we implore..." Phoebe.
Phoebe: Leo's right. I saw what's gonna happen, Piper. We can't do this, we can't be selfish.
Death: Why aren't you two chanting? (to Strife) You keep going. (to Phoebe and Piper) Why did you stop?
Famine: We're running out of time.
Death: Do you know what you're doing? You're killing your own sister.
Phoebe: There's more at stake here then sisterhood.
and;
Bartender: Everyone has to vote on this. What if a building was on fire? Do you save five strangers or one sibling?
Prue, Piper, Phoebe: Five strangers.
Mind you, I would choose a sibling over a stranger. But if the writers went through all that trouble to show that the Halliwells should try to think of others, beside themselves, why should we approve of their decision not to help Cole when he needed it in Season 5?
Frankly, I don't think they really have a good reason. They could claim that Cole was dangerous. But Piper had been dangerous during her breakdown following Prue's death and when Leo became an Elder. Leo became dangerous during his breakdown over Chris' death and with the Avatars trying to convince him to join them. Yet, the Halliwells were tolerant. And whatever one can say about Cole, he was not a stranger.
And . . . so what if the Power of Three would be permanently broken? The world would not have succumbed to despair over their disappearance. It had survived for centuries before they had appeared on the scene.
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colehellsangel
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Post by colehellsangel on Dec 2, 2007 1:28:57 GMT -5
I have not seen that episode in ages, but just from reading the script you provided, this makes complete sense to me. If they claim they were willing to give up a sister for five strangers, that shows that they care more about helping others than anything else. So why did they not consider helping Cole? He may not be a stranger but he was someone in need of help, at least in season four I don't know about season five until I get my DVDs back, or until they show more of that on TNT however last time I watched they were all the way back in season two I believe. Anyway yes Cole showed some behavior that turned the sisters off but just because someone appears not to deserve your help does not mean they actually don't. In fact Cole's behavior should have made it all the more obvious that he needed help.
NOTE: Some of this opinion was based on no memory of Cole's behavior in season five; So these views are only temporary for now. After seeing season five again these views might change.
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Marqelle
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Post by Marqelle on Dec 2, 2007 16:34:59 GMT -5
I agree *from way earlier* that the Sisters had the same odds of becoming evil as Cole did. Cole just tried harder to become good. And I think that they wouldn't have lasted (Cole and Phoebe), but not becasue Cole was always turning evil, but because of Phoebe and her attitude. She thought she knew that Cole would always be evil, and she let him know that...and it's not that easy to work hard to become good, when the woman (or person) you are trying hardest for, doesn't even believe you can, and doesn't help or care. That's why I think it was harder for him to stay good, he wanted to, but Phoebe put him down way to much, then blamed it on him...I don't put any blame on Cole, until those episodes when he went crazy and couldn't accept that they were over, that was his fault...
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colehellsangel
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Post by colehellsangel on Dec 2, 2007 18:40:19 GMT -5
I agree *from way earlier* that the Sisters had the same odds of becoming evil as Cole did. Cole just tried harder to become good. And I think that they wouldn't have lasted (Cole and Phoebe), but not becasue Cole was always turning evil, but because of Phoebe and her attitude. She thought she knew that Cole would always be evil, and she let him know that...and it's not that easy to work hard to become good, when the woman (or person) you are trying hardest for, doesn't even believe you can, and doesn't help or care. That's why I think it was harder for him to stay good, he wanted to, but Phoebe put him down way to much, then blamed it on him...I don't put any blame on Cole, until those episodes when he went crazy and couldn't accept that they were over, that was his fault... I completely agree that their initial break up was her fault. She got too scared of him instead of accepting who he was and trying to help him through his struggles. Thats what couples are supposed to do, support each other. Cole did not really show the same back though because he tried to pry her away from her sisters and forced her to choose him or them, but Phoebe just grew too scared of him and ran it seemed like. I also agree about it did turn into Cole's fault when he could not accept that he had lost her, and most of all when he hired that shape shifter woman to play with and made her look and act like Phoebe. I can see how Phoebe got disgusted over that, that's just wrong. By then he really needed to get over it. |
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Post by whitelightertony on Dec 2, 2007 22:24:39 GMT -5
True...but they (like almost everyone else in the Charmedverse) were unwilling to look at themselves with that critical eye.
The difference in "Apocalypse Not" (and, to a similar degree, in "Styx Feet Under") was that the fate of the entire world was potentially at stake if a Halliwell sister wasn't sacrificed.
That wasn't the case in "Hell Hath No Fury." Phoebe and Paige trying to reverse Piper's transformation into a Fury wouldn't put the rest of the world in jeopardy. In fact, I'd dare say the world would be in greater jeopardy if they had simply let Piper remain a Fury.
I'm not so sure they meant it...I think Prue, Piper, and Phoebe were just trying to sound "virtuous" in the aftermath of Prue's Great Near-Sacrifice.
He wasn't a stranger, but he was estranged from the family at the time of his Season 5 transformation - - mainly because The Source tricked them into thinking Cole had gone evil all on his own. Piper and Leo were still family, when their transformations happened.
The world wouldn't have been in uncontrollable peril...but Good would have lost a powerful advantage in its battle against Evil. So losing the Power of Three was something that all creatures of Good would have wanted to prevent from happening, whenever possible.
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Post by vandergraafk on Dec 3, 2007 20:21:48 GMT -5
It takes two to heal. Cole certainly didn't seem interested in working out a resolution to the events of Season 4 with the sisters during Season 5. After Sam I Am, he explored just how invincible he was and looked for ever more bizarre ways to prompt the sisters to vanquish him: taking in the Nexus (The Importance of Being Phoebe) and creating an alternative universe (Centennial Charmed).
The latter comment should be clarified. At any point during the alternative universe, Cole could have ended the experiment. Obviously, he needed the help of Avatar Alpha since he no longer had Avatar powers. Once he realized that Paige was alive and that the power of three could indeed be reconstituted yet again, he had to know that he was now eminently vanquishable in this universe and indeed he was. Again, I read this as playing out yet another suicidal dare.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Dec 3, 2007 20:57:03 GMT -5
And neither did the Charmed Ones. They're all guilty. Cole is guilty because he had failed to tell the sisters what really happened. The sisters are guilty because they had jumped to conclusions over the whole matter and seemed unwilling to even grant him any form of forgiveness or allow him a chance to talk.
But why did the writers allow this to happen? Why did they went through so much trouble to establish that Cole was a victim of possession . . . and failed to allow the sisters to learn what really happened?
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colehellsangel
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Post by colehellsangel on Dec 3, 2007 22:01:36 GMT -5
And neither did the Charmed Ones. They're all guilty. Cole is guilty because he had failed to tell the sisters what really happened. The sisters are guilty because they had jumped to conclusions over the whole matter and seemed unwilling to even grant him any form of forgiveness or allow him a chance to talk. But why did the writers allow this to happen? Why did they went through so much trouble to establish that Cole was a victim of possession . . . and failed to allow the sisters to learn what really happened? Sorry Vandergraafk while I understand what you are saying completely, I am going to have to go with ljones here. This is all I am able to say as they said the rest for me already.  |
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Post by vandergraafk on Dec 4, 2007 18:59:29 GMT -5
I don't think there is necessarily a disagreement here. It's a matter of emphasis. I have delineated the reasons I believe the Charmed Ones weren't prone to deal with Cole's past (as the Source of All Evil). I have also indicated why I believe Cole was disinclined to deal with the past. Since neither side pressed the issue, the issue wasn't addressed.
I choose not to assign guilt or blame. Certainly, the characters themselves cannot be blamed. They are merely a reflection of what the writers have dreamt up. Now, it may be true that there is more to life than was dreamt of by the Charmed writing staff in this season and others. I certainly wish the consequences of the failed utopian experiment had been explored, especially as it relates to the Charmed Ones themselves. A powerful moral lesson was lost as a result. But, then, isn't that why TV is largely vapid. It avoids most deeply dramatic and potentially divisive topics in order to play it safe. Charmed certainly did not play it safe to the extent that it attempted the Avatar experiment. Where it let us down was in its abject failure to analyze all of the ramifications.
As some of the fans associated with the Charmed Cafe have already attempted with their re-write of Charmed Season 4, a season where Prue survives, one can easily take your points - dare I say obsessions - and re-write the Charmed story arc. You won't have to worry about Julian McMahon leaving the show. His character is there so we all have free reign to write as we please. Likewise, I can write my re-write of Chris's demise in order to tie off that incomplete story arc. I could also re-write the Avatar story arc.
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colehellsangel
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Post by colehellsangel on Dec 4, 2007 23:47:02 GMT -5
I don't think there is necessarily a disagreement here. It's a matter of emphasis. I have delineated the reasons I believe the Charmed Ones weren't prone to deal with Cole's past (as the Source of All Evil). I have also indicated why I believe Cole was disinclined to deal with the past. Since neither side pressed the issue, the issue wasn't addressed. I choose not to assign guilt or blame. Certainly, the characters themselves cannot be blamed. They are merely a reflection of what the writers have dreamt up. Now, it may be true that there is more to life than was dreamt of by the Charmed writing staff in this season and others. I certainly wish the consequences of the failed utopian experiment had been explored, especially as it relates to the Charmed Ones themselves. A powerful moral lesson was lost as a result. But, then, isn't that why TV is largely vapid. It avoids most deeply dramatic and potentially divisive topics in order to play it safe. Charmed certainly did not play it safe to the extent that it attempted the Avatar experiment. Where it let us down was in its abject failure to analyze all of the ramifications. As some of the fans associated with the Charmed Cafe have already attempted with their re-write of Charmed Season 4, a season where Prue survives, one can easily take your points - dare I say obsessions - and re-write the Charmed story arc. You won't have to worry about Julian McMahon leaving the show. His character is there so we all have free reign to write as we please. Likewise, I can write my re-write of Chris's demise in order to tie off that incomplete story arc. I could also re-write the Avatar story arc. I see what you are saying. I am not obsessed with this, it was just a thought that occurred to me. I understand your points and I don't believe there is a disagreement here either only a exchange of one's ideas. Personally I am more of a Piper and Leo fan although I enjoy the whole plot with Phoebe's struggle with being in love with someone who is half evil. It makes me think of something once said on this late night religious show. Although I don't believe it and obvious the Charmed writers and creators don't either, it was said on this late night show that God hated Psychics because their powers come from demons. It does kind of make you wonder how the demon became attracted to the psychic of all the three sisters. Its definitely interesting to think about. |
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Well what I think is that they could have if they just talked to one other and stop with the I hate you things back and forth.
