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Post by whitelightertony on Nov 27, 2007 1:05:38 GMT -5
I was referring to Cole attempting to win back Phoebe's love and the Charmed Ones' trust, in Season 5. I think it was very naive, the way he approached it.
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Post by whitelightertony on Nov 27, 2007 1:09:19 GMT -5
I can understand why Phoebe didn't, but Piper and Paige should have at least been able to put the pieces together.
I'm not so sure the Charmed Ones fully realized Cole was suicidal during Season 5. From their perspective, he mainly seemed psychopathic.
The difference was that Piper was their sister. Their blood.
The possession by The Source (during Season 4) was just one too many obstacles for them to handle. And I think the Charmed Ones viewed it as Cole "losing his marbles due to selfishness" moreso than as an "emotional breakdown due to grief."
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Nov 27, 2007 1:35:45 GMT -5
Then all that tells me that blood really mattered to them, than helping some stranger or someone who was not related. How can they view themselves as protectors of innocence, when they didn't take the time to find out what had happened to Cole in S4 . . . and try to help him when he needed their help? Why should blood matter? Phoebe had figured out in "Sam I Am" that he wanted the sisters to kill him. He tried to decapitate his own head in Piper's presence in the "Mummy" episode. And yet . . . they never realized that he was suicidal?  |
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colehellsangel
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Post by colehellsangel on Nov 27, 2007 3:07:53 GMT -5
Well than why did you quote me in that post? I was not speaking of that at all. What is the connection you are trying to make?
I am with ljones on this one, I still think the girls could have tried to save him from the source after all they vanquished the original source before Cole was recruited. And you can tell early on in Season four episodes such as Bite Me and Long Live the Queen that there were emotional battles within himself between Cole and the source. Cole always loved Phoebe no matter what and he tried to protect her and be the king of evil at the same time. If you remember he yelled at her for saving the innocent and letting the attacker go at the same time thus favoring both sides. However he himself was doing the same thing, he is sending out his demons to kill innocents and he himself killing his own minions while at the same time assisting the charmed ones Bite Me being a big episode expressing this. He was yelling at Phoebe to pick a side when he could not either it seems. Although he seemed to lean towards evil slightly more part of him still assisted the charmed onces for a while before they finally discovered what he was when he could have just told them himself by means of launching a personal attack on them.
So he was definitely having emotional problems with deciding who he wanted to be more for a long while. During the earlier days when he was struggling to choose his identity the girls could have very well saved him from the source while it had barely had a hold on him. Back in the earlier days of his being the source his love for phoebe definitely was always there and trying to push its way above the source.
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Post by ljones on Nov 27, 2007 13:53:45 GMT -5
This was a battle between Cole and the Source for control of his body. It was between the two of them. Cole nearly won when he convinced the wizard to take the Source's powers, but Phoebe and the Seer stepped in and ruined it all.
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Post by colehellsangel on Nov 27, 2007 18:08:32 GMT -5
This was a battle between Cole and the Source for control of his body. It was between the two of them. Cole nearly won when he convinced the wizard to take the Source's powers, but Phoebe and the Seer stepped in and ruined it all. No just the seer, her tonics are what made Phoebe evil. |
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Post by vandergraafk on Nov 27, 2007 19:24:04 GMT -5
Yes, but consider Cole's rather strange dialogue with Baccara in A Witch in Time. I will post the complete dialogue tomorrow. However, Cole indicates that he was well aware that he had been the Source of All Evil. To my ears, I don't hear the regret or even anger that ought to have been there. Cole just sort of accepts it as well it happened, let's move on. If HE doesn't think it's a big issue, why should the sisters? That's a rhetorical question.
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Post by colehellsangel on Nov 27, 2007 20:34:03 GMT -5
Yes, but consider Cole's rather strange dialogue with Baccara in A Witch in Time. I will post the complete dialogue tomorrow. However, Cole indicates that he was well aware that he had been the Source of All Evil. To my ears, I don't hear the regret or even anger that ought to have been there. Cole just sort of accepts it as well it happened, let's move on. If HE doesn't think it's a big issue, why should the sisters? That's a rhetorical question. Yes but that could just be the source talking. I see your point though. |
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Post by ljones on Nov 27, 2007 22:23:11 GMT -5
Yes, but consider Cole's rather strange dialogue with Baccara in A Witch in Time. I will post the complete dialogue tomorrow. However, Cole indicates that he was well aware that he had been the Source of All Evil. To my ears, I don't hear the regret or even anger that ought to have been there. Cole just sort of accepts it as well it happened, let's move on. If HE doesn't think it's a big issue, why should the sisters? That's a rhetorical question. Cole had been certain of the Source being within him since "The Three Faces of Phoebe". He and the Source had been battling over control of his body, up until Phoebe and the Seer killed that wizard. And Cole never expressed anger or any kind of emotion over the Source being in his body . . . except on one occasion. He was definitely angry when he first learned about it and projected his feelings at the Seer in "The Three Faces of Phoebe". |
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Post by colehellsangel on Nov 27, 2007 23:44:07 GMT -5
Well all of this only proves that the Source in the end was the winner. It does not mean that he accepted it.
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Post by vandergraafk on Nov 28, 2007 19:21:36 GMT -5
Here's the lengthy dialoguebetween Cole and Baccara. I will comment in the next posting. A Witch in Time C: Who the hell are you? B: The name is Baccara. I was sent here from the future. C: Well, I can't say I've heard that one before. B: Allow me to offer proof. Recognize this? .... Cole catches the ring and compares it to his own wedding band ... C: How'd you get my wedding band? B: You gave it to me when you sent me with a message. Phoebe's in danger. C: What kind of danger? B: She saved a man's life today. Problem is: he was destined to die. Somehow she got a premonition she wasn't supposed to get. C: The Angel of Death never gives up a claim. B: Of course not. And, that's why death keeps coming for this mortal. But your ex-wife falls in love with him. C: She falls in love? B: Sorry to break the news. For the next six months she tries to save him over and over until she loses her own life in the process. And that's when you sent me back in time: to tell you to kill this man. C: I see. I'd never get her back if I killed an innocent, especially one that she loved. B: He's not an innocent. He's meant to die. You'd only be giving death a helping hand and save yourself a lot of future pain. C: Hunh! A warlock who wants to save me pain. Who are you? I'd never send a warlock with a message this important. B: You had no choice. If you left your throne, it wouldn't be there when you got back. Your rivals would steal it. C: What rivals? What throne? B: In the future - sooner than you might think - you're going to rule the underworld again. I'm your advisor. Of course, I advised you against this, but oh ... C: I'd never turn back to evil. It won't happen. B: It does happen. You unite demons and warlocks to lift the underworld to its greatest power in history. You're the future of evil, man! ..... Cole flings a fireball at a blinked to safety Baccara ... B: You said you'd react that way. Well, guess it's up to me to get the job done. Wish me luck. |
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Post by vandergraafk on Nov 28, 2007 19:40:02 GMT -5
I chose to include the entire dialogue in order to allow readers to come to their own conclusions. However, what I find so striking about all of this is that Cole demurs not one bit when Baccara claims that he (Cole) is about to rule the underworld again. I know that if I'd be falsely accused of something of this magnitude, I would always demur. Cole doesn't and his silence speaks volumes.
What might Cole have said? Well, he could have told Baccara that he (Cole) had no interest in ever ruling the underworld and that the last time it had happened it occurred because the Source had possessed his body. Instead, Cole denies that the future that Baccara embodies will happen. What's past is passed. His focus is and will always remain on the future. In his deepest held hopes, Cole wishes Phoebe to be a part of that future.
Indirectly, I infer from this that far from protesting his fate, Cole seems almost resigned to it. What's the point in crying over spilt milk. It happened move on. Since the Charmed Ones themselves had moved on, how exactly is either party ever going to sit down and examine the events of Season 4?
Now, you might not like the way the character was developed and unfurled at this point. That's fine. The point is: there simply is no basis for any hope that Cole and the Charmed Ones might sit down and straighten out the past. Blood loyalty or marriage vows play no role in this either. Rarely, if ever, do the Charmed Ones attempt to deal with past events. They move on, especially since there's another demon lurking round the corner.
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Post by colehellsangel on Nov 28, 2007 23:06:11 GMT -5
Your point is very clear and very strong but the dialog only proves my point, that Cole was not the source by choice and thus in a way he could have been considered an innocent. Leo even states in Black as Cole(I am sure thats the right ep) in agreement to someone, I believe Phoebe most likely; that Belthazar is responsible for the murder of Emma's husband, and that Cole the human is an innocent. I may have the wrong episode but I remember the moment well enough.
Not to say that this makes it an obligation for the girls to try to save him, but they did not even consider it. And I am talking about way before the episode you provide script for. I am referring to season four in Cole's early days as the source when the two of them were in battle for control of his body and identity. Especially because it took so long(Centennial Charmed to be exact) for Phoebe to be ok with loosing him; She grew to hate him in fact.
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Post by ljones on Nov 29, 2007 0:45:28 GMT -5
I chose to include the entire dialogue in order to allow readers to come to their own conclusions. However, what I find so striking about all of this is that Cole demurs not one bit when Baccara claims that he (Cole) is about to rule the underworld again. I know that if I'd be falsely accused of something of this magnitude, I would always demur. Cole doesn't and his silence speaks volumes. What might Cole have said? Well, he could have told Baccara that he (Cole) had no interest in ever ruling the underworld and that the last time it had happened it occurred because the Source had possessed his body. Instead, Cole denies that the future that Baccara embodies will happen. What's past is passed. His focus is and will always remain on the future. In his deepest held hopes, Cole wishes Phoebe to be a part of that future. Indirectly, I infer from this that far from protesting his fate, Cole seems almost resigned to it. What's the point in crying over spilt milk. It happened move on. Since the Charmed Ones themselves had moved on, how exactly is either party ever going to sit down and examine the events of Season 4? Now, you might not like the way the character was developed and unfurled at this point. That's fine. The point is: there simply is no basis for any hope that Cole and the Charmed Ones might sit down and straighten out the past. Blood loyalty or marriage vows play no role in this either. Rarely, if ever, do the Charmed Ones attempt to deal with past events. They move on, especially since there's another demon lurking round the corner. I don't know if I could take the above seriously, since the dialogue between Cole and Bacca occurred during Season 5 - at a time when Brad Kern and the writers had decided that Cole would turn evil again before leaving the show. |
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Post by vandergraafk on Nov 29, 2007 19:56:37 GMT -5
Except Cole doesn't turn evil again before the end of the show. Everything subsequent to Sam I Am suggests a Cole, not hell-bent on becoming evil, but a person, eminently frustrated at his inability to win back a perceived soul-mate and worried that perhaps he might just become what Baccara promised him might happen sooner than Cole might imagine.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Nov 29, 2007 22:43:10 GMT -5
Except Cole doesn't turn evil again before the end of the show. Everything subsequent to Sam I Am suggests a Cole, not hell-bent on becoming evil, but a person, eminently frustrated at his inability to win back a perceived soul-mate and worried that perhaps he might just become what Baccara promised him might happen sooner than Cole might imagine. It is very possible that Kern had plans to turn Cole evil . . . even when "A Witch in Time" was being written. After all, he only appeared in 4 more episodes. Unless you know someone on the writing staff who has a different tale. And I cannot help but wonder if Kern was using the above conversation to hint that Cole would eventually turn evil. But you know what? I find the whole "Cole turns evil" rather ludicrous, simply because Kern and his writers had failed to allow the Charmed Ones to learn that Cole had been possessed by the Source when they had the chance - around the end of S4 and at least during the early episodes of S5. Perhaps he was planning to get rid of Cole as far back as late S4 . . . and decided to change the series' canon in regard to Cole. But the fact that the writers did not allow the sisters to learn the truth about what happened to Cole in S4 only filled me with disgust and what happened in S5. Sorry, but I have felt this way for 5 years and my feelings have not changed. |
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Post by Esmeralda on Nov 30, 2007 12:01:27 GMT -5
I'm with you. It just points out one of many, many situations where Kern had some fantastically wonderful plot ideas but did a horrendously horrible job of putting them on the air. His not allowing the sisters to find out and accept the fact that Cole was possessed (although I'll argue *how* possessed he was--had he actually attempted to murder Phoebe or do something else that Cole himself would not do, then I would agree that he was truly possessed and not responsible for what he had done. But that's ditto for Phoebe when she was under the influence of either the "Phoetus" or the Seer's potion--she never did anything that Phoebe would not do--one of the ways that Kern screwed up a fantastically wonderful plot idea) was part of what totally turned me off of the sisters, seeing them as going from potential whitelighters into potential darklighters and end up on the pyre like in 'Morality Bites'.
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Post by ljones on Nov 30, 2007 13:01:05 GMT -5
This just tells me that Leo . . . or the writer who had put those words into his mouth . . . was an idiot. Or a moron. Take your pick.
Belthazor was not some evil entity that took over the "innocent" Cole Turner. Belthazor and Cole were the same individual. Cole/Belthazor was a human/demon hybrid. Nothing more, nothing less. The stripping of his demonic half in "Black As Cole", only made Cole half the individual he truly was.
Besides, one doesn't have to be half-human, half-demon to have both good and evil within you. You can be a human, a whitelighter, or a human/whitelighter hybrid to have both good and evil within. The Halliwells and Leo all proved that they can be just as monsterous as those they claim to fight. The problem is that the show's writers and Brad seemed scared to fully accept this - except with Prue's character in "Death Takes a Halliwell".
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Nov 30, 2007 13:36:09 GMT -5
Definitely. During S7, the sisters and the Elders were much more demonic than the demons! The Avatars were another fantastic idea done horrendously horribly. Ditto for Leo's "fall from grace". Among the worst-done plots of the entire series. Well, except for Piper turning him into her own private errand boy and then having the GALL to mourn him when he dies! That was the worst example of a wonderful idea done horribly wrong.
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colehellsangel
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Post by colehellsangel on Nov 30, 2007 16:11:17 GMT -5
This just tells me that Leo . . . or the writer who had put those words into his mouth . . . was an idiot. Or a moron. Take your pick. Belthazor was not some evil entity that took over the "innocent" Cole Turner. Belthazor and Cole were the same individual. Cole/Belthazor was a human/demon hybrid. Nothing more, nothing less. The stripping of his demonic half in "Black As Cole", only made Cole half the individual he truly was. Besides, one doesn't have to be half-human, half-demon to have both good and evil within you. You can be a human, a whitelighter, or a human/whitelighter hybrid to have both good and evil within. The Halliwells and Leo all proved that they can be just as monsterous as those they claim to fight. The problem is that the show's writers and Brad seemed scared to fully accept this - except with Prue's character in "Death Takes a Halliwell". Ok point taken, but the name calling I believed to be unnecessary. I understand what you are saying completely. But either way Cole was a good guy for while in season four and even after becoming evil again and even after he died for good in Centennial Charmed, he always loved Phoebe. I am trying to focus on the good in him here on my side of this conversation. |
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