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Post by whitelightertony on Dec 5, 2007 2:58:03 GMT -5
Probably because Kern was overeager to rush to wrap up Cole's story (because of Julian's departure) so he could get on to the "promotable hunks" for Phoebe during the next four seasons (although that was probably more at the bequest of the network).
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Dec 5, 2007 22:13:52 GMT -5
Julian was in half of the episodes of Season 5 . . . that's at least 10 or 11 eleven episodes. If what you say is true about Kern being in a rush to get rid of Cole's story, he could have done a better job at it. He had plenty of time to close the Source's story arc in a more complete . . .or accurate way.
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colehellsangel
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Post by colehellsangel on Dec 6, 2007 2:57:43 GMT -5
Julian was in half of the episodes of Season 5 . . . that's at least 10 or 11 eleven episodes. If what you say is true about Kern being in a rush to get rid of Cole's story, he could have done a better job at it. He had plenty of time to close the Source's story arc in a more complete . . .or accurate way. Yeah thats true The source's possession of Cole story went on long enough for there to be a better development. |
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Post by whitelightertony on Dec 6, 2007 21:00:23 GMT -5
Well, I don't know for sure if that was why Kern ended up going that route with Cole's character...but Cole definitely deserved a better send-off.
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Marqelle
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Post by Marqelle on Dec 9, 2007 18:59:39 GMT -5
I agree I would have liked it if he didn't have a send off at all haha...but I know that is would have been way too unbelievable if everything would have worked out in the end anyway...it totally ruined his character when he went crazy and couldn't give it up...they shouldn't have done that to his character.
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Post by whitelightertony on Dec 9, 2007 19:50:19 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure Julian wanted to leave on his own, because there was so much more the writers could have done with Cole.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Dec 9, 2007 20:23:55 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure Julian wanted to leave on his own, because there was so much more the writers could have done with Cole. I wonder why he had wanted to leave. He didn't find out about "NIP/TUCK" until after he had filmed "Centennial Charmed". |
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colehellsangel
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Post by colehellsangel on Dec 10, 2007 2:09:59 GMT -5
Yeah thats true it would have been a bit unbelievable for a demon and the source especially to have a happily ever after. The point of the show is that the girls are supposed to kick the Sources behind. Which I still think they could have tried to do without also killing Cole but still after the turn it took with him even becoming the source a happily ever after would not have been believable.
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Post by vandergraafk on Dec 10, 2007 12:28:49 GMT -5
Well, I don't know how much I can contribute here. But, it seems as if we are saying several things over and over. The Source story arc - or at least possession of Cole by the Source - was not as adequately developed or as fully developed as it could have been, Cole during Season 5 was an inadequately fleshed out ueber-demon and the Avatar story arc was mangled quite a bit.
Kudos to Charmed for attempting these potentially very engaging story arcs. They are so atypical of the common network TV fare. Having said that, however, I must acknowledge that therein hangs its very weakness. It was network TV fare. Perhaps they occasionally can touch on things of potential greatness, but rarely do programs ever fulfill anywhere near their potential. In part, that lies in need to appeal to a mass audience, one that doesn't always appreciate deep descents into darkness. (I'm sure the Source story arc scared off a lot of viewers.) In part, it lies in the reluctance of advertisers to support anything controversial. It's better to have promotable hunks than story arcs that have amazing breadth and depth.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Dec 10, 2007 13:59:01 GMT -5
It could have been done, Colesangel. All the sisters did was prove that they were no better than Cole, in the end. I'm not saying that Cole was "Good". Hell, I'm not "Good". Why would I expect Cole or any other fictional character to be the same? This whole idea of the Halliwells being a "powerful force for Good" strikes me as a joke, considering some of their actions over the years. And they made that first big step into darkness when they killed Cole in "Long Live the Queen".
The writers could have allowed them to use their brains and discover that Cole was a victim of the Source's possession. Instead, the viewers were expected to sit back and cheer them on when they killed Cole without bothering to find out how he had become the Source. I wasn't thrilled. I was pissed. And it annoys me even further when other fans expect me to accept the sisters as heroines in that particular situation, when all I can do is view them as murderers who kill with extreme prejudice.
CHARMED being part of the TV industry doesn't seem like an excuse to me. If there were other TV series capable of showing morally complex and superb stories, then CHARMED could have done the same. Unfortunately, the series was not blessed with particularly talented writers.
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Post by vandergraafk on Dec 10, 2007 20:13:43 GMT -5
Well, this will open up a can of worms .... but since you've made the assertion .... what TV drama, pray tell, are you referring to? I don't watch that many since it usually equates to a cerebral anema. I do watch Law and Order, Monk, The Closer and a few others.
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colehellsangel
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Post by colehellsangel on Dec 11, 2007 3:27:44 GMT -5
Yeah thats exactly what I have been saying. Even though a demonic happily ever after is a little unbelievable there still could have been a thought process on the girls' part. It was mostly Paige to blame mostly I think. She was the the one to discover or more accurately suspect that he was a demon again. Which is good I loved how that showed how she was smart and observant, but she put it out there in a negative way. Yes its obviously a negative thing but she had personal reasons I believe. I believe she had a thing against him and also of course felt like a fifth wheel as one of the eps is even named after. Not saying at all that she is the bad guy but that she may have been why there was a negative image there when the Piper and Phoebe finally realized that she was right.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Dec 11, 2007 12:57:13 GMT -5
On that point, I agree with you. Although many fans claimed that the Halliwells would have never been able to exorcise the Source's spirit from Cole. I believe that if they had been able to kill the Source, they could have helped Cole.
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colehellsangel
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Post by colehellsangel on Dec 11, 2007 16:06:25 GMT -5
On that point, I agree with you. Although many fans claimed that the Halliwells would have never been able to exorcise the Source's spirit from Cole. I believe that if they had been able to kill the Source, they could have helped Cole. Thats possible, Exorcising is a very complicated process or so I hear anyway and for the girls it would would be some extreme magic. It may have been beyond their abilities. |
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Post by vandergraafk on Dec 11, 2007 19:14:54 GMT -5
Perhaps I am just too limited by own (lack of) imagination. Frankly, I hadn't given much thought to the possibility of exorcising demonic possessions. Though tangential to Charmed, it certainly might have been included in the real world of Charmedverse.
The question, then, is why didn't the writers contemplate going in this direction, especially since it would have kept around the big baddie beyond the very brief time he was present. Rather than dismiss the writers as being of limited creative intelligence, I would rather seek some reasonable explanation that might suggest a way out. But, first, I'd like to get an idea when such an exorcism might have taken place. Towards the end of Season 4? At the beginning of Season 5? Answers to these questions might play a role in discussing why the writers didn't go in this direction. Also, it might be important to consider the impact that the "dark" story arc - the Source and its possession of Cole - had on the overall ratings of Charmed? As I understand it, Season 4 marked a decline in ratings, though it is difficult to say precisely why the ratings began to decline. Why is it the absence of Prue? The excessively dark turn of Charmed? Lots of questions, very few answers.
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Post by ljones on Dec 11, 2007 21:09:58 GMT -5
On that point, I agree with you. Although many fans claimed that the Halliwells would have never been able to exorcise the Source's spirit from Cole. I believe that if they had been able to kill the Source, they could have helped Cole. Thats possible, Exorcising is a very complicated process or so I hear anyway and for the girls it would would be some extreme magic. It may have been beyond their abilities. I don't see how exorcising the Source's spirit from Cole would be more difficult than killing him. If they were capable of finding a way to do one, they could have found a way to do the other. |
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colehellsangel
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Post by colehellsangel on Dec 12, 2007 1:07:54 GMT -5
Thats possible, Exorcising is a very complicated process or so I hear anyway and for the girls it would would be some extreme magic. It may have been beyond their abilities. I don't see how exorcising the Source's spirit from Cole would be more difficult than killing him. If they were capable of finding a way to do one, they could have found a way to do the other. Right but also considering what you are saying about Wiccian Priests and the girls being nothing but Sorceresses. I believe only Priests can Exorcise and as you state the girls are not Priests. |
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Post by whitelightertony on Dec 12, 2007 5:47:42 GMT -5
Are we forgetting - - one episode earlier - - Phoebe's conscious decision to become Queen of the Underworld, in "We're Off to See The Wizards"?
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Post by vandergraafk on Dec 12, 2007 11:35:06 GMT -5
Suppose the sisters had been open to and discovered Cole's possession by the Source, what then? Some are suggesting that a priest might have been necessary. I'm sure someone could have been located in Charmedverse. After all, we've had FBI witchhunters, Homeland Security Avatar hunters and gosh knows what else. How difficult is it to imagine that such a character could be created on the spot?
The more troubling issue is what does one do with an exorcised spirit. It doesn't solve the Charmed Ones problems to exorcise the Source from Cole's body. Where is it going to go? Now, some might suggest that the fate of Amara in Freaky Phoebe is one possibility. Amara, freed from the possession of Phoebe's body and unable to return to her own, now deceased body, apparently is left to drift into the void. Is that what would happen to the Source? Or, should we look to Sympathy for the Demon and Ordinary Witches for guidance?
In the former, stripping Cole of his powers merely allowed Barbas to carry out his plan of acquiring a massive amount of power. Would Cole's powers have returned to the wasteland if Barbas had not been present? When the sisters tried to switch their powers in Ordinary Witches and were surprised by Zankou, their powers found temporary residence in ordinary mortals, who surprisingly did not go insane as Dr. Williams had in Astral Monkey and were able to master their new powers quicker than the Charmed Ones had been able to. Would the exorcism of the Source have simply transformed some unwitting bystander into the Source of All Evil?
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Marqelle
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Post by Marqelle on Dec 12, 2007 20:25:35 GMT -5
I would think so, if it didn't, the show would have a flaw. But, ( I forgot who said it), "it would be just as hard to either vanquish him or take the source out of him"....
Well, the only huge difference would have been that Cole could stay alive, and if the sources "soul, spirit..etc..." found another body, they would have to find a way to make it happen with another demon around, or if they were that desperate to keep him alive, they could find a demon that did want to be the source and give him the powers, but of course they would have to kill him later. Which brings to my attention that He did try to give the sources power away to that wizard, but they stopped him, so that really lowered my thought of them...so much...they didn't even use there brain at all in the episodes surrounding long "Live the Queen" until Cole was gone for good...well until he came back as a "good guy"....but now I am wandering way off topic....
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