pubesy
Witch
"If I could dream at all, it would be about you. And I'm not ashamed of it." - Edward Cullen
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Post by pubesy on Feb 26, 2008 0:19:48 GMT -5
i dont think phoebe EXPECTED him to be a saint, and never be evil again. it was just so hard for their relationship to be successful because well lets face it
reputation wise
the charmed ones were the defenders of all things good and the protectors of innocents
belthazor was the right hand man of the source for X amount of years and had the reputation of extreme evil.
phoebe was at times trying to prove to her sisters and sometimes the magical community that the relationship COULD in fact work, and to do this, cole did have to be on his best behaviour.
yes, phoebe and the girls DID expect alot form cole, sometimes too much, but phoebe wanted her sisters approval, and to do this, cole had to be seen as "GOOD"
morphing into belthazor, or using fireballs etc did not help. the other reason phoebe did not want cole using his powers was because the bounty hunters could track him when he used his demonic powers, and then went after him.
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ljones
Whitelighter
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Post by ljones on Feb 26, 2008 2:15:40 GMT -5
i dont think phoebe EXPECTED him to be a saint, and never be evil again. it was just so hard for their relationship to be successful because well lets face it reputation wisethe charmed ones were the defenders of all things good and the protectors of innocents belthazor was the right hand man of the source for X amount of years and had the reputation of extreme evil. phoebe was at times trying to prove to her sisters and sometimes the magical community that the relationship COULD in fact work, and to do this, cole did have to be on his best behaviour. yes, phoebe and the girls DID expect alot form cole, sometimes too much, but phoebe wanted her sisters approval, and to do this, cole had to be seen as "GOOD" morphing into belthazor, or using fireballs etc did not help. the other reason phoebe did not want cole using his powers was because the bounty hunters could track him when he used his demonic powers, and then went after him. The main problem with Cole's relationship with Phoebe wasn't that he had evil within him or was half-demon. Even the sisters proved that one doesn't need a demonic heritage to be a monster, sometimes. The main problem . . . or one of the problems was that Phoebe and her sisters demanded that Cole be completely good without making a mistake or being flawed. The other problem was that Cole was so determined to maintain Phoebe's love that he tried to revolve his moral compass around her expectations. In fact, he didn't try to be his own man - not with his demonic colleagues or with Phoebe and her sisters. |
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pubesy
Witch
"If I could dream at all, it would be about you. And I'm not ashamed of it." - Edward Cullen
Posts: 1,171
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Post by pubesy on Feb 26, 2008 5:30:12 GMT -5
The main problem with Cole's relationship with Phoebe wasn't that he had evil within him or was half-demon. Even the sisters proved that one doesn't need a demonic heritage to be a monster, sometimes. it wasnt the fact that phoebe was a witch and cole was half demon that was the major problem in the relationship. it was the demon / witch stigma that went along with the relationship of phoebe and cole. that stigma would put a strain on any relationship. Phoebe's expectations of cole were very high, and a challenge for cole to stick to, but it think they needed to be set. phoebe never expected cole to be perfect, and although she did speak up when cole did use demonic power, she forgave him and understood as much as she could what cole was going through. phoebe needed to set such high standards so she could prove to her sisters, the elders, the magical community and herself that the relationship could work. i strongly believe that cole DID want to put his demonic lifestyle behind him for HIMSELF, not just for phoebe. and sure, cole was determined to try to live up to phoebe's expectations, thats what being in love is, trying to do everything in your power to make the one you love happy, and knowing that they are doing exactly the same thing for you. and phoebe did do this. she kept believing in cole, and encouraging him, and trusting him when no one else did. until she could trust him no longer. |
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ljones
Whitelighter
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Post by ljones on Feb 26, 2008 12:37:37 GMT -5
What needed to be set? Phoebe's expectations of Cole? How about Phoebe needing to learn to accept Cole for who and what he was, instead of dumping expectations on him?
This is not the way to make a relationship work. Cole was wrong in trying to live up to Phoebe's expectations. I don't care how in love he was. It was not worth him trying to suppress or be someone or something he was not. If Phoebe could not have learned to accept him, he should have ended the relationship.
Phoebe never really believed in Cole. She believed that she could change him into her ideal of what her companion in life should be . . . instead of allowing him to be his own individual.
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Post by whitelightertony on Feb 26, 2008 14:02:28 GMT -5
Actually (at least in Season 5), Cole expected Phoebe to take him back when she clearly wanted nothing to do with him.
He acted like a baby and demanded she love him again, rather than realizing that Phoebe wasn't worth it and that he could do a lot better than her.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Feb 26, 2008 16:20:52 GMT -5
No . . . he tried to convince her to take him back. He rather stupidly tried to convince Phoebe that he was a paragon of goodness and worthy of her accepting him, again. Frankly, he should have just stayed away. But he was too stupid to realize she was not worth the effort.
And I have a question. Why did Phoebe want nothing to do with Cole in the first place? SHE was the one who made the decision to join him as Queen of the Source's Realm. SHE was the one who allowed the Seer to talk her into killing that wizard and preventing Cole from getting rid of the Source's spirit and powers from his body. And SHE was the one who had jumped to conclusions that Cole had deliberately chosen to be the Source, instead of taking the trouble to find out.
I barely have any sympathy toward Cole for his ridiculous habit of making Phoebe the center of his world. On second thought, I have no sympathies. But I definitely have NO sympathy, whatsoever, toward Phoebe's "troubles" with Cole. After "Long Live the Queen" and the writers' refusal to allow the Halliwells learn what really happen . . . my sympathies went out of the window.
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pubesy
Witch
"If I could dream at all, it would be about you. And I'm not ashamed of it." - Edward Cullen
Posts: 1,171
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Post by pubesy on Feb 26, 2008 16:58:14 GMT -5
in season 3 and EARLY season 4 phoebe was as accepting of his demonic nature as she could be. she was charmed. being charmed had responsibilities in S3&4. like i have said before, the expectations were set for many essential reasons
so bounty hunters couldnt track his powers
to gain the other sisters approval
to keep the relationship.
they BOTH wanted the relationship to work, and the only way it could was if cole could prove to everyone including phoebe that had given up his demonic ways. he couldn't date phoebe and kill the innocents she was trying to save at the same time.
cole was not trying to supress his demonicness just for phoebe. he wanted to do it for himself as well, he wanted rid of his demon side.
i really feel that phoebe did support cole as much as she could, whilst trying not to make a rift in her sisters relationships
and as far as the source thing goes.......i agree, phoebe SHOULD have found out cole was possessed, it was stupid not to let her find out. BUT she did not know he was possesed. and when cole came back from the dead, HE DID NOT TELL HER EITHER.
so she was acting as if HE had voluntarily taken in the source.
she chose cole to begin with, thinking that her relationship with her sisters would later mend and they could still continue to be charmed. when she found that she couldnt be with her husband and her sisters at the same time, and her sisters would KILL her if they had to she was forced to make a choice between her husband and her sisters. she struggled with this decision, remember the letters to both sides? when she found she was being poisoned by cole and the seer, she lost trust in cole, and realised that he was not the same man she loved, and she needed to stand by her sisters and vanquish him.
i think that point triggered the realisation for phoebe, that demon and witch could never work. she was done fighting, and cole had lost her trust forever, (she did not know he was possessed involuntarily). her sisters would have KILLED her if she got back with him again.
to me, she made the right decision, given the limited amount of info she knew.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Feb 26, 2008 20:41:34 GMT -5
Just barely. Even then, she and Cole were discussing about him stripping his powers. She even talked him into refraining from using his powers, because he might be tempted back into evil if he did. Which is one of the most ridiculous beliefs I have ever heard in any story.
I am well aware that Cole didn't tell Phoebe what really happened. I'm also aware that Phoebe and her sisters NEVER BOTHERED TO FIND OUT ON THEIR OWN . . . WHAT REALLY HAPPENED. Instead of blindly accepting what happen, my only reaction is to complain about Kern's decision to never allow the sisters to find out what happened. This decision did not do either Cole or the Halliwells any service.
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pubesy
Witch
"If I could dream at all, it would be about you. And I'm not ashamed of it." - Edward Cullen
Posts: 1,171
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Post by pubesy on Feb 27, 2008 4:43:01 GMT -5
phoebe had no interest in finding out. she was ready to move on without cole. thats why she did not ask or anything, and since cole never said anything.....
its not about phoebe not being bothered to find out, she was going on what she knew. or thought she knew.
i agree, it was stuipd that the did not find out. but maybe its not kerns fault. maybe it was not intended for phoebe to find out. a marketing ploy so more people watched, fans became outraged and people talked about it. i mean, we are still talking abou it now
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ljones
Whitelighter
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Post by ljones on Feb 27, 2008 13:51:11 GMT -5
Resorting to bad writing for a marketing ploy. Some how, I find that believable, considering what show we're talking about.
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Post by ~B@MeLiSsA30@B~ on Feb 27, 2008 22:59:07 GMT -5
That's true.
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Post by whitelightertony on Feb 29, 2008 4:42:03 GMT -5
Phoebe clearly wasn't thinking logically during that period of time during Season 4, and she regretted her decision to choose The Source (who she thought was Cole) over her sisters.
As always, Phoebe failed to take responsibility for her part in the mess to which she'd contributed. She apparently felt that vanquishing Cole was good enough to redeem her.
Also, ljones, keep in mind that it's possible that Kern wanted to (and planned to) have Phoebe discover that Cole had been possessed by The Source - - but the network executives, for whatever reason, vetoed it because they felt it would complicate Julian's exit from the show. Network execs need to approve virtually every storyline the showrunner wants to do, so it could be that Kern had no choice but to do things the cheap way (because they were the ones signing his paychecks each week).
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pubesy
Witch
"If I could dream at all, it would be about you. And I'm not ashamed of it." - Edward Cullen
Posts: 1,171
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Post by pubesy on Feb 29, 2008 5:22:10 GMT -5
Points to the network execs comment by WLTony. Ya-huh.  there may be many reasons why phoebe never found out. enough with the kernie-bashing! i always thought there was a reason why the essence of the source was implanted into cole. something about the source being attracted to beings which desire power. cole had just been stripped of his powers and was having a really hard time adapting to having no powers. the essence of the source was attracted to that desire to regain his power, thats why it chose cole. i am not for a second saying that cole wanted the sources powers or that he wanted to be evil incarnate, he was just greiving over the loss of his powers. |
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Post by ~B@MeLiSsA30@B~ on Feb 29, 2008 14:32:52 GMT -5
That does make a lot of sense. I just started watching this show about 8 months ago and until now, a lot of the episodes I've only had the pleasure of watching once. So I've forgotten a lot of the details. Now that you mentioned that, I do remember him not having powers at some point. He said in one episode he's been around for over 100 years with his powers. It be hard to be human all of a sudden. They should of let him to do things without his powers than stripped him of his powers so he got used it slowly. But since that's not the case, he was dealing with not having them. Like you said, that is one of the reasons The Source chose Cole.
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ljones
Whitelighter
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Post by ljones on Feb 29, 2008 15:23:10 GMT -5
I'm beginning to suspect that you're right. If you are right, then my apologies to Brad Kern.
I do know that Joss Whedon had plans to take an even darker turn with BUFFY for its Season 6 . . . and ended up clashing with the WB execs. This led to him taking the show over to UPN.
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Post by whitelightertony on Feb 29, 2008 21:54:48 GMT -5
Well, we'll probably never really know for sure...because whichever execs were supervising Charmed for the WB at the time may have moved onto different positions by now.
And, as my writing professor constantly reminds us, network executives generally just aren't "creative people"...it's a case of too many cooks spoiling the soup.
If a showrunner wants to do an episode featuring canaries, a powerful network exec could theoretically put the kibosh on it because he or she simply "doesn't like canaries" (it depends on how high up the exec is).
And with Whedon, it must have been Season 5 that he'd wanted to be darker than it actually ended up being, since Buffy moved to UPN at the beginning of Season 6.
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Post by ~B@MeLiSsA30@B~ on Mar 1, 2008 4:44:19 GMT -5
It is really hard to say. Whatever the reason, it's too bad it had to end that way with Cole.
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Post by whitelightertony on Mar 1, 2008 5:23:17 GMT -5
I guess one of the WB execs just "didn't like closure"... ;D  |
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Post by ~B@MeLiSsA30@B~ on Mar 1, 2008 14:42:35 GMT -5
It does sure seem that way.
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pubesy
Witch
"If I could dream at all, it would be about you. And I'm not ashamed of it." - Edward Cullen
Posts: 1,171
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Post by pubesy on Mar 4, 2008 5:43:42 GMT -5
i am not a big fan of comparing charmed with buffy (maybe because i have only ever watched a few episodes here and there).
but i mean...isnt asking charmed to be like buffy a bit too much? because we want the shows to be different....not the same?
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