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Post by whitelightertony on Apr 10, 2008 1:52:18 GMT -5
I wonder if Phoebe's propensity for engaging in selfishness might stem from some underlying jealousy that Prue and Piper had a stronger bond with each other than Phoebe did with either of them?
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pubesy
Witch
"If I could dream at all, it would be about you. And I'm not ashamed of it." - Edward Cullen
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Post by pubesy on Apr 10, 2008 2:26:36 GMT -5
hmmm i dont think so... maybe her selfishness is confused with her assertiveness?
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Post by vandergraafk on Apr 10, 2008 17:20:56 GMT -5
I'm about to agree with ljones on something. NEWSFLASH. Vengeance makes a good point. I think that when we criticize PhoeME we are not necessarily singling out her selfishness as her obsessive self-absorption. Paige certainly had her selfish moments when she wanted to create a 24-hour sex toy for herself. However she tried to rationalize this - witchcraft owes me - she was being rather selfish, I suppose!
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Kit-the-cat
Witch
There are tons of people I'd like to freeze for all of eternity, but we won't go into that!-Holly
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Post by Kit-the-cat on Apr 12, 2008 9:09:31 GMT -5
Sorry Pubsey.
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pubesy
Witch
"If I could dream at all, it would be about you. And I'm not ashamed of it." - Edward Cullen
Posts: 1,171
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Post by pubesy on Apr 13, 2008 1:05:35 GMT -5
dont apologize, its just funny!
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ljones
Whitelighter
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Post by ljones on Apr 16, 2008 1:12:37 GMT -5
Judging from the later seasons, I would say that Phoebe's penchant for selfishness really took the skies . . . after Cole left. Why do so many fans want to blame her relationship with Cole for Phoebe's less than pleasant side? I first saw a good example of how truly unpleasant Phoebe could be . . . in the Season 2 episode - "P3 H2O".
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elenarae
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Forever Charmed!
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Post by elenarae on Apr 17, 2008 12:29:38 GMT -5
What I would like to say is that so many people, male and female, go into relationships with the intent to "change" the other person. I feel sure that when Phoebe fell in love with Cole, prior to her knowledge of him being a demon, she saw all the "good" in him. Cole was devilishly good about hiding his true identity, and deceiving all three sisters (Prue, not as much). I feel like she lied about Cole because she felt that she could change him, and for a little while did. If not for the Seer, maybe even longer.
However, in their place, I would be selfish at times too. I would want time for myself, my husband, and children without outside interference. I would want to be able to plan a vacation without worrying about a demon or an attack. Sure, I don't want anyone to die at the hands of evil, but I also know that happens every day here in America and around the world. Other than praying for peace and teaching my child right from wrong, and volunteering, I am not a proactive crime fighter. When you boil it down like that, what is the difference?
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Post by ~B@MeLiSsA30@B~ on Apr 17, 2008 13:28:34 GMT -5
I completely agree with you. I've been married 5yrs now. When I first got married, there was certain things I didn't like, & I tried changing him from those things that bug me, but when he did, it drove me more crazy because it wasn't him. So, I won't get into detail about what it was, but I can say it dealt with being afraid of losing him forever.
So it's a lot like Phoebe. Being afraid of losing Cole. We shouldn't change those we love, but if you all are honest with your selfs, you all have done it at least once. So we can't judge Phoebe on doing that too.
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Post by vandergraafk on Apr 17, 2008 18:58:05 GMT -5
Yes, but why is it that women always seem to try to change the men they intend to marry or stay with once married? Is it because men really do need (re)training? Is it because women cannot fathom how men function when we clearly seem to prefer hanging out with the boys, watching sports or drinking a few rounds? My last wife tried to change me. Boy, THAT was a huge mistake. She liked everything about me except everything I did!
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Post by ~B@MeLiSsA30@B~ on Apr 17, 2008 19:23:32 GMT -5
I don't know why we do that.  We just do. It's not just Phoebe...it's woman. So we can't judge phoebe when we all do that. I also met guys who try to change girls. So it's not one gender. |
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Post by vandergraafk on Apr 17, 2008 19:56:51 GMT -5
I thought that many men just wanted their wives to remain just as they were when they met or married them: young, beautiful, understanding, yada yada yada! We don't like change unless we initiate it!
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ljones
Whitelighter
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Post by ljones on Apr 18, 2008 3:14:18 GMT -5
I have to agree with Vandergraaftk on this one. I'm a woman, but I dislike the idea of trying to change one's spouse after the wedding vows. It's like you're saying . . . I don't really love you, but I love what I can change you into. Phoebe only loved one part of Cole's personality. She was too immature to realize that true love would have meant accepting all aspects of his personality, and not just one or a handful.
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pubesy
Witch
"If I could dream at all, it would be about you. And I'm not ashamed of it." - Edward Cullen
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Post by pubesy on Apr 18, 2008 6:21:56 GMT -5
what makes anyone think phoebe tried to change cole any more than anyone else on charmed?
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elenarae
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Post by elenarae on Apr 18, 2008 9:54:48 GMT -5
I think both genders try to change the other. I think women are probably more guilty of doing that than men. My husband and I have been married for 17 years. Neither of us are the same person we married, we have matured together. In lots of areas we started off on the same page. However, there are other areas that we are totally different. I don't mind (and vice versa) if he does something with his friends, plans a trip without me, etc. He normally plans a hunting trip at Thanksgiving each year. The time that we spend apart only seem to make me appreciate him more when we are together. At first, I will admit I didn't want him anywhere but with me...that was my issue of insecurity, not his. As long as I know his schedule and I am not talking every minute of every thing...just a general idea so I won't worry something bad happened, I am fine.
I think Phoebe tried to change Cole by not accepting that at least a part of him was evil. She wanted to see only the good, the part that he showed her at first. She went as far as making up a potion to vanquish the evil in him. If that is not trying to change someone, I don't know what is.
All the girls were quilty of this, with the exception of Prue and Andy. She backed off after casting the truth spell and saw how he reacted. I don't think she is as quilty of that as they are.
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Post by vandergraafk on Apr 18, 2008 17:31:52 GMT -5
I don't really wish to address the other sisters. As someone noted earlier, each of the sisters to some extent is "selfish". However, consider the relationship between Phoebe and Cole after Black as Cole. In Lost and Bound, Phoebe has great difficulty in understanding the anguish that Cole is experiencing after the loss of his powers. She expects him to be something he never was: a regular Joe, well lawyer, really, who would do his job to the best of his ability and not worry about having powers.
Second, she arrogated to herself (and her sisters, by extension) all manner of concern about demons and threats. Cole's advice was ignored or - worse - unsought since she didn't wish to revisit his demonic past. This is most clearly visible in Charmed and Dangerous where she wishes to protect Cole from her premonition. Had she openly confided him and respected him for both his desire to live a life, untempted by demons, and his trove of knowledge about his former life, then Cole might not have been so frustrated.
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Post by ~B@MeLiSsA30@B~ on Apr 18, 2008 17:38:48 GMT -5
I'm not saying it's right for us to change those we love after marriage. I'm just saying Phoebe isn't the only one who has done that.
I'm not saying most men try to change woman.....I'm just saying there are men who do. I've known some guys like that.
Whether it's a man or a woman, it's wrong.
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Post by vandergraafk on Apr 18, 2008 17:45:10 GMT -5
I suppose it depends on what you mean by "change". To what degree are we changed when we enter a relationship. As a bachelor, there are certain habits I might entertain. In a live-in relationship, however, these might have to be abandoned or at least altered. Is that not "change" of a sort?
I suppose what we are really getting at is our recepitivity to change. If someone is not receptive to change, then attempting to change that person is going to drive them away.
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Post by ~B@MeLiSsA30@B~ on Apr 18, 2008 17:49:19 GMT -5
I'll give an example on a guy I used to date. He said I'd make a perfect wife, but then when I stayed a few nights. He kept telling me I can't do this & I can't do that, it's wrong, other people he knows don't do that. He said to quit being so happy all the time, being sweet, & that is just me. There is more, but I don't wanna get into that.  |
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Apr 19, 2008 2:51:03 GMT -5
I feel that the reason Phoebe could not accept the darkness within Cole was because she could not accept it within herself or her sisters. She was willing to accept that she had a bit of darkness within her. But she was unwilling to face that she could be a monster. Because of this, she seemed to wallow in the illusion that if she had a mate who reflected what she believed she ought to be, all would be right with the world. The worst I can accuse Phoebe of is perpetual immaturity, not selfishness.
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Post by whitelightertony on Apr 19, 2008 3:33:59 GMT -5
This is exactly why same-sex relationships/romances are so kewl. ;D
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We just do. It's not just Phoebe...it's woman. So we can't judge phoebe when we all do that. I also met guys who try to change girls. So it's not one gender.