ljones
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Post by ljones on Dec 24, 2013 21:42:51 GMT -5
How can you justify Phoebe and Paige's murder of Rick Gittridge? It was unnecessary. Paige could have easily teleported the gun from his hand. They could have also erased his memories and send him back to prison. Instead, they arranged for him to be murdered.
Why should Paige and Phoebe get an excuse for committing murder? Because they're the Charmed Ones? Because Rick Gittridge was a convict? Why?
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iamthesun
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Post by iamthesun on Dec 25, 2013 9:19:20 GMT -5
They did it to save Chris, and that was why it was necessary. I can't remember if they knew about Chris at that point or not, but if they did then it makes sense that they wanted to do everything they could to save Wyatt's brother. And if they didn't, well it was a quick solution that was wrong, but sometimes things just had to be done. And it was the Scabbar Demons who killed him, yeah the sisters initiated it, but ultimately the demons did the murdering.
And yeah because he was a convict..The sisters protect the innocent not the guilty. They were killing two birds with one stone.
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Post by Chrisaholic on Dec 25, 2013 9:39:13 GMT -5
They knew already about Chris at that time and Chris had some trouble with Scabber demons at the same time. In order to save Chris from those, Paige casted a spell to make Rick Gittridge look like Chris who the Scabber then killed with their acid. That's the background.
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iamthesun
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Post by iamthesun on Dec 25, 2013 9:46:08 GMT -5
Exactly.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Dec 25, 2013 22:27:38 GMT -5
They knew already about Chris at that time and Chris had some trouble with Scabber demons at the same time. In order to save Chris from those, Paige casted a spell to make Rick Gittridge look like Chris who the Scabber then killed with their acid. That's the background.
I know the background. The sisters could have killed the Scabber demons without Phoebe and Paige setting up Rick Gittridge to be murdered by them. I don't see how it was necessary to kill Rick in order to save Chris.
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Post by Chrisaholic on Dec 26, 2013 8:01:15 GMT -5
That's not what I meant as I know this also well, yet I wanted to give the background again for the ones who didn't know. I believe now that the whole situation could have handled differently, in retrospect. What the authors had thought then?  |
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Post by kriswyatthalliwell on Jan 13, 2014 22:07:50 GMT -5
I just rewatched "Sam I Am" today, and Phoebe really pissed me off in this episode. I agree that Paige had specific reasons to hate Cole in this episode, but Phoebe's emotions took a complete 360 in Season 5. In "Sam I Am" Phoebe tried act holier than thou to Cole and told him that he vanquished 2 human beings. First off, Phoebe should not be talking about killing human beings. I know that this instance happens in Season 6, but didn't Phoebe and Paige kill Rick (A Human Being) to protect Chris in "Hyde School Reunion" um.. Phoebe sweetheart isn't that "Punishing the guilty and killing a human being" too or does your logic only apply to Cole? Secondly, she is so condescending and downright spiteful towards Cole, she tells him "I want to vanquish you on my terms not yours" I mean seriously Phoebe? You can see he is deteriorating and losing his mind and you seriously want to add to all of that? Just let the man commit suicide... seriously! She seriously needed another trip to the "Morality Bites" future, all the Sisters did. Phoebe's logic in "Sam I Am" is because I'm a Charmed One, I do whatever the hell I want because I supposedly fight for good...... ughhhh..... Sorry if this is really long and you don't agree but that's just what I thought lol maybe I'm just too angry  |
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Jan 14, 2014 8:52:48 GMT -5
Gotta agree with you TOTALLY!
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Post by kriswyatthalliwell on Jan 14, 2014 13:04:07 GMT -5
Thank you, Es! I'm glad you agree with me... I wanted Prue to come back from the dead and smack some sense into Phoebe! "Sam I Am" is my official hatred period for Freebie/PhoebME I really just hate her wholeheartedly in this episode. Piper also bugged me in this episode too, but that's a rant for another day |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2014 15:37:51 GMT -5
I just rewatched "Sam I Am" today, and Phoebe really pissed me off in this episode. I agree that Paige had specific reasons to hate Cole in this episode, but Phoebe's emotions took a complete 360 in Season 5. In "Sam I Am" Phoebe tried act holier than thou to Cole and told him that he vanquished 2 human beings. First off, Phoebe should not be talking about killing human beings. I know that this instance happens in Season 6, but didn't Phoebe and Paige kill Rick (A Human Being) to protect Chris in "Hyde School Reunion" um.. Phoebe sweetheart isn't that "Punishing the guilty and killing a human being" too or does your logic only apply to Cole? Secondly, she is so condescending and downright spiteful towards Cole, she tells him "I want to vanquish you on my terms not yours" I mean seriously Phoebe? You can see he is deteriorating and losing his mind and you seriously want to add to all of that? Just let the man commit suicide... seriously! She seriously needed another trip to the "Morality Bites" future, all the Sisters did. Phoebe's logic in "Sam I Am" is because I'm a Charmed One, I do whatever the hell I want because I supposedly fight for good...... ughhhh..... Sorry if this is really long and you don't agree but that's just what I thought lol maybe I'm just too angry This is the main reason why Cole should've never come back after season 4. The storyline involving his character was ludicrous at best. I'm more annoyed that no one called Phoebe out on her actions in season 4 or suffered no type of consequences. Why didn't Cole throw in her face how it was her choice to marry him even after knowing he was the Source? Its like everything was Cole's fault and Phoebe got a free pass. I like the rivalry between Paige and Cole. It made sense. But the entire angle between Cole and Phoebe was a wreck. -My friend had this theory that Phoebe was punished for her behavior from the Elders through her love life. She constantly wanted the stable relationship and family and never got it. Each relationship she had after Cole ended in pain and loss for her. Miles was murdered, Jason freaked out about her being a witch, the random men she dated in between never worked, Leslie moved away, Drake died, Dex treated her like crap. It was a punishment and lesson the Elders bestowed upon her. Its the reason why the Elders in season 8 sent Coop to her. Why else would they give a damn about her love life had they not punished Phoebe? Well that was his theory. |
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Feb 10, 2014 20:42:05 GMT -5
I've gotta admit that that actually makes sense.
In a fanfic when Phoebe gets to see Cole again, she had this conversation:
It reminds me of my signature and is usually my explanation, but I definitely like your friend's.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2014 11:58:47 GMT -5
If Phoebe was punished by the Elders through her love life to teach her a lesson, does that make her story arc from season 5-8 more understandable including her sometimes over the top behavior? And did she ever actually learn the lesson?
Season 5
Her bad relationship with Cole and his ultimate demise
Her rebound with Miles in which he gets murdered
Her adamant attempt at finding a man and going on random dates
Her hooking up with her boss Jason near the end of the season
Season 6
Her going on various dates due to Jason being relocated in Hong Kong
Jason freaking out about her being a witch and leaving her
A vision quest that shows her a child in the future and fear that it will never happen
Her randomly going out on dates and forcing premonitions on them getting her active powers taken away out of consequence
Season 7
her continued fear that the vision of her daughter will never happen
Her hooking up with her Ghost Writer
Leslie moving away
Drake dying
Season8
Dex pretty much being the worse pairing for her but goes out with him anyway
Dex leaving her due to magic
Her fear of not having a child from her vision strengthening
Her attempt at getting artificially inseminated
Giving up on her magic and visions completely due to the belief the vision she had was a lie
All the pairing Coop found for her never lasted nor did she bother
Her realizing she has feelings for Coop but its against the rules to be with him
Needless to say, everyone has their own interpretation of the character's personal journey throughout the show. I've noticed that after every failed relationship Phoebe had, she seemed even more dedicated to find a solid steady relationship while neglecting her duties as a witch. Theres been many times where Phoebe has ditched her sisters in times of need to go off and meet some guy. In season 7, Drake seemed to reach something in Phoebe that snapped her out of her facade of men. But when we get to season 8 she back to it. I personally found Phoebe especially in season 8 to be depressed by surpressing her feelings of all those failed relationships.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Feb 11, 2014 13:15:10 GMT -5
But I guess that's the point. How can this be the Elders teaching Phoebe a lesson when she never learns anything from it? If they used the same thing to try to teach her the lesson once or twice, that would be one thing. But don't you think they'd try something else?
No, sorry, the more I think about it, the more I don't think that's what was going on. It had much more to do with the fact that once Phoebe got a taste of demon love she hardly thought of anything else but sex.
Besides, if that's the case, don't you think they would've sent her to the future and let her get burnt a few more times to get things through her thick skull?
And if they put Piper on the stake next to her, I'd be happy.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2014 13:35:31 GMT -5
How can this be the Elders teaching Phoebe a lesson when she never learns anything from it? If they used the same thing to try to teach her the lesson once or twice, that would be one thing. But don't you think they'd try something else? Why would the Elders send her Coop and care about her love life if she continued to neglect her witch duties? I don't know. I tried thinking of a logical answer for your question and can't. Other than it just doesn't make sense. Maybe they were punishing Phoebe through her love life so she can realize that love wasn't everything and take a good look at herself. She pretty much gave up on her magic in season 8 over it. Maybe the Elder's last test was Coop, when she yelled at Coop and told him she needs to be with her sisters when they were about to fight? Maybe that is the reason why the Elder's approved Phoebe being with Coop, because she choose the bigger picture finally over a man. Honestly though I cannot think of any other kind of answer. And maybe the reason they stuck to the same form of punishment, failed relationships, because Phoebe's weakness was love. I don't know. And if they put Piper on the stake next to her, I'd be happy. . Why the cheap shot at Piper? She has nothing to do with this topic. |
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Post by Darkhorse Christian on Feb 11, 2014 14:21:18 GMT -5
How can this be the Elders teaching Phoebe a lesson when she never learns anything from it? If they used the same thing to try to teach her the lesson once or twice, that would be one thing. But don't you think they'd try something else? Why would the Elders send her Coop and care about her love life if she continued to neglect her witch duties? I don't know. I tried thinking of a logical answer for your question and can't. Other than it just doesn't make sense. Maybe they were punishing Phoebe through her love life so she can realize that love wasn't everything and take a good look at herself. She pretty much gave up on her magic in season 8 over it. Maybe the Elder's last test was Coop, when she yelled at Coop and told him she needs to be with her sisters when they were about to fight? Maybe that is the reason why the Elder's approved Phoebe being with Coop, because she choose the bigger picture finally over a man. Honestly though I cannot think of any other kind of answer. And maybe the reason they stuck to the same form of punishment, failed relationships, because Phoebe's weakness was love. I don't know. The thing with the Elders' interference in the sisters' lives, though, is it's usually more blatant—and usually more a matter of internal politics and being stuck in their ways than actually being necessary for the greater good. See the crap they continuously put in the way of Piper and Leo's marriage, for example. So I don't think it was the Elders necessarily doing this, and I find it hard-pressed to see any specific beings behind it (not that there aren't probably several different options as to who could be, just that due to either absence/conflict or motive or differing M.O.s I find it unlikely that they actually are). I think it's more a simple matter of either karma or fate responding to what Phoebe was putting out than anything else, as in the more erratic her mentality was the less likely things were to actually work out between her and whoever she intended on being with. I'd like to note, though, that this was happening even in the Prue years, so it's been a handicap of Phoebe's character from the get-go. For example, she had the typical habit of being into the bad boys (or the troubled-but-cute types at least), thinking she can change them, and actually standing a chance at doing so but ruining it by throwing herself at them when things were good but suddenly turning against them should they ever take a step back. It's probably what played out between her and Clay, and to a much greater extent was definitively the case between her and Cole. A more mature Phoebe either would've be able to use her power as a less-morally-upright love interest's morality chain in a way that would actually allow things to last, OR would've been looking for guys with less baggage to begin with and not just to make things easier on herself. Leo had the right to murder a defenseless Gideon in cold blood? If you honestly believe that, you might as well agree with Cole's decision to kill that Miller guy to protect Phoebe and her family. And you might as well agree with Phoebe and Paige's decision to murder Rick Whatshisname. I don't agree with Cole's act of murder, along with Phoebe and Paige's act of murder. And I certainly don't agree with Leo's act of murder. All three incidents were acts of evil, even if they were trying to protect the family. Here's one I've been wanting to touch on for a bit of a while. No, killing his mentor out of vengeance was not justified in terms of being an act of good. It's basically pay evil unto evil here, and I will not argue that point ever. But I'm kinda okay with it in terms of the storyline because it's far from glossed over. For one thing, Leo himself lampshades the fact that it was indeed "a great evil" he was committing, not just through saying it to Gideon as it happened but through the fact that he basically went insane for awhile afterwards at the start of season seven—which the story actually went somewhere with, though your mileage may vary as to the direction was good or not. I say it was, because the Avatar plotline ended up asking a significant question which in our world is not asked nearly enough. Furthermore, remember, because of the act of good in the mirror world which happened as a result of the two worlds crossing over, the balance was completely thrown off with the main world becoming a dreadfully hardline Pleasantville and the mirror world a total and complete Hell on Earth. So that comparative act of evil was actually needed to offset it. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2014 14:48:30 GMT -5
Why would the Elders send her Coop and care about her love life if she continued to neglect her witch duties? I don't know. I tried thinking of a logical answer for your question and can't. Other than it just doesn't make sense. Maybe they were punishing Phoebe through her love life so she can realize that love wasn't everything and take a good look at herself. She pretty much gave up on her magic in season 8 over it. Maybe the Elder's last test was Coop, when she yelled at Coop and told him she needs to be with her sisters when they were about to fight? Maybe that is the reason why the Elder's approved Phoebe being with Coop, because she choose the bigger picture finally over a man. Honestly though I cannot think of any other kind of answer. And maybe the reason they stuck to the same form of punishment, failed relationships, because Phoebe's weakness was love. I don't know. I'd like to note, though, that this was happening even in the Prue years, so it's been a handicap of Phoebe's character from the get-go. For example, she had the typical habit of being into the bad boys (or the troubled-but-cute types at least), thinking she can change them, and actually standing a chance at doing so but ruining it by throwing herself at them when things were good but suddenly turning against them should they ever take a step back. It's probably what played out between her and Clay, and to a much greater extent was definitively the case between her and Cole. A more mature Phoebe either would've be able to use her power as a less-morally-upright love interest's morality chain in a way that would actually allow things to last, OR would've been looking for guys with less baggage to begin with and not just to make things easier on herself. Leo had the right to murder a defenseless Gideon in cold blood? If you honestly believe that, you might as well agree with Cole's decision to kill that Miller guy to protect Phoebe and her family. And you might as well agree with Phoebe and Paige's decision to murder Rick Whatshisname. I don't agree with Cole's act of murder, along with Phoebe and Paige's act of murder. And I certainly don't agree with Leo's act of murder. All three incidents were acts of evil, even if they were trying to protect the family. Here's one I've been wanting to touch on for a bit of a while. No, killing his mentor out of vengeance was not justified in terms of being an act of good. It's basically pay evil unto evil here, and I will not argue that point ever. But I'm kinda okay with it in terms of the storyline because it's far from glossed over. For one thing, Leo himself lampshades the fact that it was indeed "a great evil" he was committing, not just through saying it to Gideon as it happened but through the fact that he basically went insane for awhile afterwards at the start of season seven—which the story actually went somewhere with, though your mileage may vary as to the direction was good or not. I say it was, because the Avatar plotline ended up asking a significant question which in our world is not asked nearly enough. Furthermore, remember, because of the act of good in the mirror world which happened as a result of the two worlds crossing over, the balance was completely thrown off with the main world becoming a dreadfully hardline Pleasantville and the mirror world a total and complete Hell on Earth. So that comparative act of evil was actually needed to offset it. I agree with everything you said in your first paragraph. The Elders never really did intervene in greater good issues, just personal. Like Leo marrying Piper etc. So I doubt the Elders would even think about punishing Phoebe in this manner. I agree what was happening to Phoebe was most likely just Karma biting her in the behind. it didn't help that she would never allow herself time to heal from previous relationships. After Cole she rebounded with Miles who was killed, then went right into involvement with Jason. Rushed relationships typically don't work because you really don't know the person. In my opinion though, it wasn't the guys who had the baggage, it was her. Especially in the later seasons. Its a reason why both Jason and Dex left her. |
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Post by Darkhorse Christian on Feb 11, 2014 15:20:31 GMT -5
In my opinion though, it wasn't the guys who had the baggage, it was her. Especially in the later seasons. Its a reason why both Jason and Dex left her. Can't argue that. She did start going exclusively for more straight-and-narrow fellas after the Cole fiasco. But as I alluded to at the end of that second paragraph, she did that hoping that things would work out easier that way rather than out of any real growth or maturity in realizing what was most important or what kind of man was truly right for her. So she still ended up getting burned, really because of that more than anything else. It feels like in general, Phoebe's mistakes do consistently come back to bite her a lot over the course of the series. You'd think it wouldn't take 'til the end for her to learn, but better late than never, right? |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2014 15:23:45 GMT -5
In my opinion though, it wasn't the guys who had the baggage, it was her. Especially in the later seasons. Its a reason why both Jason and Dex left her. Can't argue that. She did start going exclusively for more straight-and-narrow fellas after the Cole fiasco. But as I alluded to at the end of that second paragraph, she did that hoping that things would work out easier that way rather than out of any real growth or maturity in realizing what was most important or what kind of man was truly right for her. So she still ended up getting burned, really because of that more than anything else. It feels like in general, Phoebe's mistakes do consistently come back to bite her a lot over the course of the series. You'd think it wouldn't take 'til the end for her to learn, but better late than never, right? Flawless post |
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Feb 11, 2014 15:27:36 GMT -5
Agreed totally! Great discussion, guys!
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Post by J-Train on Dec 27, 2014 18:59:39 GMT -5
So Phoebe's idea of a perfect guy is someone who can do no wrong ...very boring guy if you ask me. No wonder she bailed when her love life got complicated with Cole.
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