Cole’s hatred for Paige

[ljones]

If Leo's murder of Gideon wasn't an act of evil, how did his act restore the balance of the two dimensions? How? Only an act of evil could restore the balance. If Leo had merely killed Gideon to save Wyatt and restore the balance, then his actions could not be regarded as evil. And the balance between the two dimensions would not have been restored.

But when Leo killed Gideon, he had evil in his heart. Remember . . . he was in a state of rage over adult Chris' death and Wyatt's kidnapping. And since Leo had evil in his heart when he killed Gideon, balance was restored.

So, he really doesn't have an excuse . . . even if many want to excuse his behavior.




By the way, Cole wanted Paige out of the way by "Centennial Charmed" because she had made the stupid mistake of trying to kill him . . . after he had agreed to stay away from Phoebe.

[Deleted]

What Leo did was bad. That's why he lost it and that's why he faced punishment... well, actually he faced punishment for the Avatar stuff, but one thing led to another. I don't mind that what Leo did was evil, because I feel that it was addressed in what came after. He was already losing it before he killed Zola. Compare that to Queen Phoebe or Goddess Piper. Sure people (namely the sisters)tried to reassure him that what he did to Gideon was okay, but he knew full well that it wasn't. Would he have changed what he did? Probably not. The man murdered his son and attempted the same on the other. But as Phoebe said "The wrong thing done for the right reason is still the wrong thing".

--------
As for Phoebe, I think the whole "She sacrificed more than anyone" stuff in s8 is BS. What great sacrifices did she make exactly? Let me just go through the stuff she "sacrificed" and her relationships-

* Vanquishing Cole. I guess you could see that as a sacrifice, but who stopped him from relinquishing The Source powers again?
* Jason. Not a fan of the guy, but she treated him like poop and he had far more patience than she deserved. He left her, she didn't sacrifice that relationship for magic, he did it for her!
* Lesley: Once again, he left. And it had nothing to do with magic. Maybe he would've stayed longer if Phoebe hadn't spent 90% of his time there being a sexist idiot and being generally horrid to him for no real reason...but probably not.
* Drake. Again, this was out of her hands. He was gonna die and it sure as hell wasn't a sacrifice.
* Dex. Yet again, he left her. And he didn't just find out she was a witch; he found out that he'd married her under a spell and that she'd been lying about her identity for the whole relationship!

So what did she sacrifice? The majority of her failed relationships were not down to sacrifice. So she's had a lot of break ups...no more than Paige! Why is she supposed to be so damn special?
So she was single... boo hoo! She lives in a huge expensive house, she has a great job, she's supposedly famous and super popular. So what are all these great sacrifices she's making for magic? She'll sacrifice magic and demons for work and dates, yes siree bob, but I rarely remember it being the other way around!

As for Sam I Am, that was also the point of no return for me in regards to Phoebe. To me, it was like Exit Strategy Phoebe but ten times more heinous. "I believe you're a threat to innocent people, but I won't vanquish you or strip your powers, because my petty vindictiveness is far more important!"
Just like when she smashed the power stripping potion or when she vanquished the wizard, she has the means and is presented with the opportunity to stop him from being a threat, if not for him, then for the innocents she believes he could endanger... but Phoebe will always cut off her nose to spite her face (or Cole's nose, whatever). She'll actually risk the lives of innocent people if it helps her get her spiteful little point across. And after all this, they have the gall to tell us she deserves a reward? Screw you Kern!

And then she actually writes a book on finding love. BAHAHAHAHAHA!!! All her relationships before Coop ended and it was just established that the only reason she found Coop was because The Elders orchestrated it for her. Once again, we're constantly told how amazing Phoebe is and what a love expert she is... but we're shown no evidence of it! All tell, no show.

[Melinda Halliwell]

Absolutely. Couldn't have said it better myself p3nathan. Thank you.

[Chrisaholic]

I completely agree. What had Phoebe done to sacrifice so much? Losing Prue and all the other guys were out of her hands sometimes, and the rest of the time she was acting not to her age, I think. Others had sacrificed more!!

As for the issue of this thread: Paige and Cole? It was like fire and ice. She knew from the start that something was off with him but nobody listened at first. In the end, Paige was right and no one thanked her. Nice family, if you ask me. *sighs*

[adzpower]

I always found it funny how Phoebe was always supposed to be the intuitive one but I think Paige really did have a sixth sense for picking up evil, I think she even queried it once in the show, it wasn't really ever touched on after that but she definitely sensed something in Cole, then again, I'm pretty sure the seer did something to make Phoebe's premonition powers not work around Cole.

[ljones]

Her role as a witch made her protect the innocent, made her think of their safety and what was best for them. Accepting Cole and his darker side would have felt wrong for Phoebe..vanquishing demons and then snuggling up to one when she got home..they were different ends of the spectrum..good and evil..perhaps she was never meant to truly except him.

First of all, being a witch should not have mandated that she always protect "the innocent". Witches ARE NOT supposed to be supernatural cops . . . an idea that the Halliwells and the whitelighters seemed to believe.

Two, if Phoebe and her sisters were that determined to be supernatural cops, they could have considered using an empowered Cole to help them, just as they used Leo. So what if he had demonic powers? He could have used them for good, which he did during late Season 3 and early Season 4. The Halliwells have used their powers for evil or selfishness. They have occasionally corrupted their abilities. And yet, it's okay for the sisters to keep their powers and not Cole? This is so hypocritical in so many ways.

Phoebe was never meant to accept Cole? I'm supposed to sit here and accept the idea of Phoebe and her sisters wallowing in their one-dimensional views of morality and their prejudices as something good? Not me.

And yeah . . . if Phoebe had truly loved Cole, she should have realized that she would always have darkness within him. EVERYBODY DOES. Including the Halliwells and Leo. Including Darryl and Andy. Everybody - humans, demons, whitelighters, etc. have it. And before any of you point out about how the different beings were portrayed on the show, I will remind you that . . . the show proved this penchant for evil in everyone several times. If Phoebe was truly mature . . . if the Charmed Ones were truly mature . . . they would have realized this and not cling to their idiotic moral compass, which struck me as worthy for an eight year-old. The only person who came close to dumping this ridiculous one-note morality was Prue.

And guess what? Cole was not the only one who allowed his feelings for someone to affect him in a negative way. Prue certainly proved this in "Death Takes a Halliwell". Piper proved this in "Once Upon a Time", "Hell Hath No Fury" and "Oh My Goddess, Part 2". I'm not trying to turn Piper into a villain. I'm only proving that when it comes to dealing with personal loss, she is no better than Cole. And unlike the latter, she had emotional support.

I always found it funny how Phoebe was always supposed to be the intuitive one but I think Paige really did have a sixth sense for picking up evil, I think she even queried it once in the show, it wasn't really ever touched on after that but she definitely sensed something in Cole, then again, I'm pretty sure the seer did something to make Phoebe's premonition powers not work around Cole.

It's a damn pity that Paige failed to detect her own evil or the evil within her sisters. Perhaps she would have never attempted to kill Cole in "Centennial Charmed", after he had decided to stay away from Phoebe. Or perhaps she would have never helped Phoebe steal Darryl's soul or murder Rick Gittridge . . . or help her sisters and the Avatars commit the psychic rape of humanity in Season 7.

[The Source]

Well all has been said on how i view it. Her hate just seems bitter and bad writing since she and her sisters never really tried to understand what happened to cole. Her 80 year old self did for some reason (a tad late no?) and in the comics cole is now dead again and she seems to have more maturity in it. I do agree i think paige made matters worse for them since 1. cole was leaving again in that mermaid episode and paige stopped him to save phoebe, 2. as many said he was leaving them alone and she tried to kill him for lord knows what. Idk man i just never tuly like the sisters anymore after season 5 after how they treated cole. The worse part is is that they still went ti him when they were in trouble despite all this.

Nice fan fic about their unborn son so many times i wish there was a story line in which he survived and was raised by demon or something and comes back looking for his parents (without the source's influence i might add). I hope the comics can do something with this since in the comic prue and cole seem to get along so much better now.

[forbuss]

Mar 24, 2015 16:38:30 GMT -5 The Source said:

Well all has been said on how i view it. Her hate just seems bitter and bad writing since she and her sisters never really tried to understand what happened to cole. Her 80 year old self did for some reason (a tad late no?) and in the comics cole is now dead again and she seems to have more maturity in it. I do agree i think paige made matters worse for them since 1. cole was leaving again in that mermaid episode and paige stopped him to save phoebe, 2. as many said he was leaving them alone and she tried to kill him for lord knows what. Idk man i just never tuly like the sisters anymore after season 5 after how they treated cole. The worse part is is that they still went ti him when they were in trouble despite all this.

Nice fan fic about their unborn son so many times i wish there was a story line in which he survived and was raised by demon or something and comes back looking for his parents (without the source's influence i might add). I hope the comics can do something with this since in the comic prue and cole seem to get along so much better now.

I definitely liked the sisters less in season five too, but it really had nothing to do with how they treated Cole. I found Cole so whiney, annoying, and pathetic in season 5.. I would have treated him like that too.

I think he should have stayed dead in "Long Live the Queen", but I do like some episodes of season 5 that he is in, like Centennial Charmed. He got back to his evil ways of winning Phoebes love, which I liked. That is one of the best future/altered reality episode in the series I think, I LOVED Alyssa's acting in that episode.

[ljones]

I'm sorry but for me, "Centennial Charmed" was a piece of crap. If they had wanted Julian McMahon off the show, they could have done written a better story arc, instead of one that ignored the fact that Cole was a victim of the Source's possession back in late Season 4.

[Melinda Halliwell]

Apr 10, 2015 7:52:11 GMT -5 forbuss said:

I definitely liked the sisters less in season five too, but it really had nothing to do with how they treated Cole. I found Cole so whiney, annoying, and pathetic in season 5.. I would have treated him like that too.

But that's how the writers wrote him to be which was completely stupid I think. He should've got a better send of then than been driven totally mad or as you, I and many other people have said previously stayed dead after 'Long Live The Queen'.

[lilchi7212]

Mar 13, 2015 11:17:50 GMT -5 @p3nathan said:

What Leo did was bad. That's why he lost it and that's why he faced punishment... well, actually he faced punishment for the Avatar stuff, but one thing led to another. I don't mind that what Leo did was evil, because I feel that it was addressed in what came after. He was already losing it before he killed Zola. Compare that to Queen Phoebe or Goddess Piper. Sure people (namely the sisters)tried to reassure him that what he did to Gideon was okay, but he knew full well that it wasn't. Would he have changed what he did? Probably not. The man murdered his son and attempted the same on the other. But as Phoebe said "The wrong thing done for the right reason is still the wrong thing".

--------
As for Phoebe, I think the whole "She sacrificed more than anyone" stuff in s8 is BS. What great sacrifices did she make exactly? Let me just go through the stuff she "sacrificed" and her relationships-

* Vanquishing Cole. I guess you could see that as a sacrifice, but who stopped him from relinquishing The Source powers again?
* Jason. Not a fan of the guy, but she treated him like poop and he had far more patience than she deserved. He left her, she didn't sacrifice that relationship for magic, he did it for her!
* Lesley: Once again, he left. And it had nothing to do with magic. Maybe he would've stayed longer if Phoebe hadn't spent 90% of his time there being a sexist idiot and being generally horrid to him for no real reason...but probably not.
* Drake. Again, this was out of her hands. He was gonna die and it sure as hell wasn't a sacrifice.
* Dex. Yet again, he left her. And he didn't just find out she was a witch; he found out that he'd married her under a spell and that she'd been lying about her identity for the whole relationship!

So what did she sacrifice? The majority of her failed relationships were not down to sacrifice. So she's had a lot of break ups...no more than Paige! Why is she supposed to be so damn special?
So she was single... boo hoo! She lives in a huge expensive house, she has a great job, she's supposedly famous and super popular. So what are all these great sacrifices she's making for magic? She'll sacrifice magic and demons for work and dates, yes siree bob, but I rarely remember it being the other way around!

As for Sam I Am, that was also the point of no return for me in regards to Phoebe. To me, it was like Exit Strategy Phoebe but ten times more heinous. "I believe you're a threat to innocent people, but I won't vanquish you or strip your powers, because my petty vindictiveness is far more important!"
Just like when she smashed the power stripping potion or when she vanquished the wizard, she has the means and is presented with the opportunity to stop him from being a threat, if not for him, then for the innocents she believes he could endanger... but Phoebe will always cut off her nose to spite her face (or Cole's nose, whatever). She'll actually risk the lives of innocent people if it helps her get her spiteful little point across. And after all this, they have the gall to tell us she deserves a reward? Screw you Kern!

And then she actually writes a book on finding love. BAHAHAHAHAHA!!! All her relationships before Coop ended and it was just established that the only reason she found Coop was because The Elders orchestrated it for her. Once again, we're constantly told how amazing Phoebe is and what a love expert she is... but we're shown no evidence of it! All tell, no show.

 Apparently the Elders did it as an apology because Phoebe has a history of falling for guys both good and bad and simply not being cut out for whatever relationship she's in when it came down to it, so once everything wears on her to the point she just wants to write columns and find a baby daddy, she gets a mail-ordered man from the sky. Really she's got the most superficial happy ending of the sisters, if you think about it. And Piper? There's nothing the Elders could give her that Denise Dowse as the Angel of Destiny didn't conditionally curb-stomp when she agreed to freeze Leo instead of having him killed off.

[Deleted]

As for Sam I Am, that was also the point of no return for me in regards to Phoebe. To me, it was like Exit Strategy Phoebe but ten times more heinous. "I believe you're a threat to innocent people

Says the woman who helped set up her old high school friend to get murdered

[lilchi7212]

I can understand Paige hating Cole in late season 5 but Cole blaming and hating Paige for why his relationship with Phoebe didn't work out is kinda of a head scratcher. The writers probably did this as an excuse for Cole to stay on the evil path so the Charmed Ones can finally vanquish him in that alternate reality that he created.

[Deleted]

What Cole should have changed was the moment the Seer tricked him into taking the Hollow.  That's what led to the end of his relationship with Phoebe.  The introduction of Paige had nothing to do with it.

Of course, had that happened, the Cole in the alt-reality would be human.

[lilchi7212]

Aug 13, 2015 11:16:56 GMT -5 @tim66 said:

What Cole should have changed was the moment the Seer tricked him into taking the Hollow.  That's what led to the end of his relationship with Phoebe.  The introduction of Paige had nothing to do with it.

Of course, had that happened, the Cole in the alt-reality would be human.

I always wondered what would happen if he decided not to take in the Hollow. Trust that the spell that Phoebe wrote earlier would be enough for the sisters to vanquish the Source. I also wondered if Phoebe would've told Cole about her premonition the moment after she got it instead of later when Piper's powers were taken away could the outcome been different?

[adzpower]

Thinking about it, I don't think Cole ever hated Paige, he was even willing to take her advice in early season 5 about leaving Phoebe alone.
The reason he targeted Paige in seasons 4 and 5 were because she was an easy target, the new sister, the one Phoebe is least likely to believe, and in season 5 he believed that Paige was the cause of his and Phoebe's relationship turmoil, of course this is nonsense, because Prue hated him just as much as Paige did in the end, whether it was Prue or Paige there Phoebe still would have had a sister whispering in her ear that Cole was no good. Paige meeting her sisters had nothing to do with their break-up, heck Paige even liked Cole in the beginning, up until Charmed and Dangerous anyway.
What actually broke them up was him possessing the Hollow and not telling Phoebe he needed help, if he had mustered the strength to do so in the Three Faces of Phoebe then they could have saved him before he did anything truly evil as the Source.

[Deleted]

What actually broke them up was him possessing the Hollow and not telling Phoebe he needed help, if he had mustered the strength to do so in the Three Faces of Phoebe then they could have saved him before he did anything truly evil as the Source.

Too bad no one told Kern this when he was writing that piece of rubbish that came to be called Centennial Charmed.

[lilchi7212]

Aug 13, 2015 16:40:37 GMT -5 adzpower said:

What actually broke them up was him possessing the Hollow and not telling Phoebe he needed help, if he had mustered the strength to do so in the Three Faces of Phoebe then they could have saved him before he did anything truly evil as the Source.

Well could he have? Remember he tried to tell her earlier but couldn't cause the source's essence or whatever that was taking control of him was preventing him from telling her. He tells old Phoebe he wants to tell Present Phoebe about it but the source won't let him,he says he's too strong. 

[Sadrick]

The thing is, not even Prue was suspicious of Cole at first. She even made a quip to Phoebe about how he was attractive looking and asked if he was someone whom she liked with a smile on her face. It wasn't until after Cole was discovered lying unconscious next to the Book of Shadows in Sight Unseen that the seeds of mistrust were first sown. As for Paige, I don't recall when she first began to act hostile towards him. Maybe it was in Black as Cole when one of the sins from his past reared itself in the form of an innocent man whom he murdered. That knowledge forever tainted her perception of him. She was already aware of the fact that Cole was a hybrid demon, but aside from her own limited experiences with him, she never knew much regarding his history. Paige didn't live through the uncertainty and fear of the previous year when Cole was still trying to kill the sisters. She hadn't even seen his demonic form until Black as Cole. So to have all of that information thrust upon her at once, it must have been difficult for her to reconcile if he was truly reformed or not. Inversely, Cole would feel less inclined to talk with or befriend Paige when she's being openly hostile towards him. 

[adzpower]

Aug 13, 2015 21:11:29 GMT -5 lilchi7212 said:

Aug 13, 2015 16:40:37 GMT -5 adzpower said:

What actually broke them up was him possessing the Hollow and not telling Phoebe he needed help, if he had mustered the strength to do so in the Three Faces of Phoebe then they could have saved him before he did anything truly evil as the Source.

Well could he have? Remember he tried to tell her earlier but couldn't cause the source's essence or whatever that was taking control of him was preventing him from telling her. He tells old Phoebe he wants to tell Present Phoebe about it but the source won't let him,he says he's too strong. 

Hmm I don't really buy it though, she already suspected something was wrong, and it never made sense to me that he couldn't tell present Phoebe when future Phoebe already knew. Not to mention there were other times the true human Cole broke free of The Source's control like when he wanted to save Paige from the power brokers or celebrate Phoebe's pregnancy, if he had enough control/willpower to do that then I can't see him not having enough to say four little words, "I AM THE SOURCE".