cyma
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Post by cyma on Nov 22, 2013 3:50:03 GMT -5
How did it happen? In the beginning of season 4, Paige and Cole got along well, that is until the Source took over Cole. But even possessed, Cole managed to save Paige’s life in Fifth Halliwell. The Source hated Paige, but Cole didn’t. But what about season 5? How, when, where did the hatred develop that Cole ended up creating an alternate reality where Paige was dead?
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iamthesun
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Post by iamthesun on Nov 22, 2013 7:42:27 GMT -5
Cole new that Paige didn't like him and was trying to convince Piper and Phoebe that something bout him wasn't quite right. Cole saved her life because he knew what it would do to Phoebe if she lost another sister..his feelings for her were that strong.
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Post by Chrisaholic on Nov 24, 2013 9:02:24 GMT -5
I agree that Cole's love for Phoebe played a big role here, yet for creating this other reality, the idea for him that if Paige hadn't found her sisters, Phoebe and him would still be happy but the hate could be the Source in him or just worked up emotions. Who knows.
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iamthesun
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Post by iamthesun on Nov 24, 2013 12:57:50 GMT -5
I think the Source made him lose touch with reality..that and that crazy Seer. Cole thought Paige was the reason why his relationship with Phoebe was going downhill, but it was the Seer and Cole's hunger for power.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Nov 29, 2013 4:37:46 GMT -5
Has anyone considered that the moment Paige learned in "Black As Cole" that Cole had originally been sent to kill the Charmed Ones back in Season 3, her attitude toward him began to change? Her hostility toward him lessened after he lost his powers. But after he became possessed by the Source, her hostility returned. She also became more suspicious. In fact, she was more hostile toward him after he came from the dead than Phoebe or Piper in early Season 5.
Many of you speak of Cole's hatred toward Paige. What about Paige's dislike toward Cole?
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iamthesun
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Post by iamthesun on Nov 30, 2013 8:27:39 GMT -5
Yes..it was a two way thing.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Nov 30, 2013 12:54:33 GMT -5
Here's the thing. Cole changed the wrong thing. Paige had nothing to do with Phoebe turning against Cole - Phoebe did that herself when she turned him non-magical, leaving an empty part of his soul for the Source to fill when they returned the Hollow to its box. Unlike in S8 (when the Hollow is actually the Shadow, but since Kern had the sisters vanquish that, he couldn't use it, so he misused the Hollow instead) the Hollow only absorbs powers, hence the name, but returns them to their original owner when its returned to its box. Since the Source had been vanquished, his powers went into the nearest empty spot - that empty spot in Cole's soul that used to be filled by Belthazor.
Paige had nothing to do with that.
The only way Cole could've had Phoebe for himself is if he had figured a way to go back to where she would've never discovered that he was Belthazor, because she always loved the lawyer, never the demon that was just as much a part of him as the lawyer. After all, he had been raised by his demonic mother, not his non-magical father and had been a mercenary demon for a full century. A leopard doesn't change his spots that quickly or easily. The only way Phoebe could truly love Cole is if she could love the demon as much as the lawyer, and Cole could never change anything to give him that.
It was always Phoebe's biggest problem. Except for "Morality Bites" (which should've never been part of Charmed, even if it's my favorite episode), she could never accept reality and never take responsibility for her own actions - it was always someone else's fault, hence her blaming Cole for her turning evil when it was her own choice.
Cole's problem was falling for someone who could never truly love him. Hence the tragedy of their relationship.
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iamthesun
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Post by iamthesun on Nov 30, 2013 13:44:55 GMT -5
Some interesting points there Es, I agree that had Phoebe never found out about Cole's demonic side, their relationship may have survived longer. Though I do think Phoebe loved him - truly..he was the one for her. Biased as I may be though! She found out the love of her life was a demon..a killer..who originally wanted to kill her sisters. Could she love that side of him after finding out that?
Say if someone you cared about did something morally wrong..would you have to except what that person did in order for you to care about them? I know what you mean though..in The Vampire Diaries, Elena excepted Stefan for what he was (vampire) so she truly loved him. He was a 'good' vampire though..if there is such a thing, whereas cole tried to be on team mr nice guy and he didn't manage it.
IMO, Cole played a part in Phoebe turning evil..Had he not been consumed by the Source and influenced by the Seer he wouldn't be evil himself. She made that choice to be with him.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Nov 30, 2013 13:48:05 GMT -5
We'll just have to agree to disagree on that. Because I will never agree that Phoebe ever truly loved Cole, because she never did what you said she did - she never accepted the fact that he had done evil, but that she loved him despite that. Had that been the case, she would've still loved him when he got rid of that landlord. She only loved the lawyer.
I keep saying this - had Charmed ended when it should've - at the end of S3 or at the very latest, at the end of S4 - then I'd agree with you. But as soon as you add S5, then you know that she never truly did.
Truly, what Cole should've changed was gone to an alternate world where Phoebe never found the Book of Shadows, never turned her and her sisters into witches, never gotten their powers. Then had he kept Belthazor hidden from her, only been Cole the lawyer around her, then they could've been happy.
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iamthesun
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Post by iamthesun on Nov 30, 2013 13:57:32 GMT -5
I agree that she loved Cole the lawyer..that's my point, I'm not thinking of Belthazar really. So if it happened like you suggested - the sisters never receiving their powers, Belthazar wouldn't know about them and he wouldn't want to kill them? That's one great change though..changing destiny in that way.
Belthazar aside, do you think that Phoebe and Cole truly loved one-another?
BTW I know that Phoebe never excepted Cole's demonic side..why should she? I'm glad she didn't, considering her title as a good witch and all. She excepted the fact that he wanted to change though..she helped him through that. That was her way of meeting him half - way.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Nov 30, 2013 14:17:25 GMT -5
I agree that she loved Cole the lawyer..that's my point, I'm not thinking of Belthazar really. So if it happened like you suggested - the sisters never receiving their powers, Belthazar wouldn't know about them and he wouldn't want to kill them? That's one great change though..changing destiny in that way. Belthazar aside, do you think that Phoebe and Cole truly loved one-another? BTW I know that Phoebe never excepted Cole's demonic side..why should she? I'm glad she didn't, considering her title as a good witch and all. She excepted the fact that he wanted to change though..she helped him through that. That was her way of meeting him half - way. But that's why their love was doomed - as a good witch she couldn't accept him as a demon and tried to change that, but changing that she made him something worse, something she truly couldn't love as a good witch - the Source. Had the sisters never received their powers, but Cole went back to that time, knowing her, loving her, he could've met her as Cole the lawyer. And due to the spell Grams had them under until their powers were released - where Evil couldn't touch them - Belthazor would've never become known to Phoebe. They could've truly been happy. So, yes, Phoebe always loved the lawyer. No, she never truly loved Cole, because the demon is as much part of him as the lawyer. Now if through love of her, he could keep that part of him under control (which I felt he could, IF she could forgive him when he would once in a while slip - which he would and which she couldn't), then they could've made it. But because she could never accept that in order to be whole, Belthazor always had to be a part of him, no, she could never truly love Cole. |
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iamthesun
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Post by iamthesun on Nov 30, 2013 14:26:31 GMT -5
So, to sum up, though not perfect they had a passionate relationship that was predestined for failure because of Cole's demonic side and Phoebe's inability to compensate for that. How was that??   |
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Nov 30, 2013 14:46:03 GMT -5
Exactly. She was madly in lust for him, just like she was with all of her dream guys.. Not in love.
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iamthesun
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Post by iamthesun on Nov 30, 2013 14:54:37 GMT -5
Except that I believe they were in love. But we shall agree to disagree LOL  |
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Nov 30, 2013 15:00:45 GMT -5
Actually we agreee, since I think being in love is the same as being in lust, totally different than loving one another, which Phoebe never did or she never would've reacted the way she did in Season Five and Cole never wouldv'e gone crazy or needed to become an Avatar because he would've had her love, not just her lust.
Hehehehe. Stubborn, aren't I??? If you want to think that being in love with each other is the same as loving one another but not accepting one another, then that's fine. I just don't. Just like I don't think that Piper ever truly loved Leo the angel, just Leo her little errand boy.
I keep saying it and it's so true - Halliwells in love are not nice people.
Fortunately for Paige, she's a Matthews.
You can so tell that Grams was a manhater. When it comes to love she did a rotten job of raising her granddaughters. Paige was so lucky that Grams didn't raise her.
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iamthesun
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Post by iamthesun on Nov 30, 2013 15:12:27 GMT -5
As am I !! Well there's sort of a difference between the two..they lusted after each other in the beginning but that turned to love. In love you help each other to be a better person and Phoebe did that - to some extent. Piper found it hard with the a elders but I think she loved Leo. Oh here we go again LOL  Es I'll catch ya tomorrow!  |
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Post by Esmeralda on Nov 30, 2013 15:29:38 GMT -5
Since this forum is all about Season Five (not Three and Four...) if you can tell me how she made Cole a better person when her actions turned him into a pitiful stalker who couldn't understand the word "NO!", I'll agree with you. But as is....
And if at any point you can show me how Leo made Piper a better person or Piper made Leo a better person...
Both couples would've been so much better off if they'd never met...
And, oh, yes, I definitely add Prue to this whole mess. She and Andy *so* could've made each other better people if Prue had simply been truthful with him, just like Piper and Dan would've made such a perfect couple had she been truthful with him. But the same way her younger son never loved his mother or aunts but simply used them, she simply used Dan.
Just like the others, both Prue and Andy would've been much better off if Andy had remained in Washington...
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iamthesun
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Post by iamthesun on Dec 1, 2013 6:17:14 GMT -5
Well Phoebe was the reason Cole tried to not use his powers for evil..yes it didn't work in the long run, but she was still the reason. Cole wanted to be with Phoebe, and that was why he wouldn't take no for an answer. But, for those times he did everything in his will not to use his powers or, used them with good intention, that was how Phoebe changed him for the better.
Well Piper and Leo loved each other..that was plain to see. Even when Leo was taken from her, Piper still continued in her duty as a Charmed One and all the times they tried to get married and didn't manage it..they didn't give up. I wouldn't necessarily determine the success of the sister's relationships by the amount they made their partners 'better'.. of course that helps but Piper and Leo and Phoebe and Cole were two of the most popular pairings from that show. Not without problems and I see that not everyone loved them..but..Piper and Leo! They were still going strong 20 years down the line.
I liked her with Dan though.. I'm not sure I would say she used him.. Well I guess she strung him along a bit, but that was because she didn't know how to tell about her powers, didn't know how he would react, and she had Leo popping up everywhere she went.
Hmm I'll have to re - watch Prue and Andy to say anything about that.. But the truth would have been better of course. When Dan and Andy notice things they should have told them. But it's wasn't always that easy.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Dec 2, 2013 23:11:25 GMT -5
This says a lot about Phoebe, doesn't it? She wasn't capable of loving him period, if she was only willing to love the human side of him.
Why would Phoebe have to compensate for Cole's demonic side? Why couldn't she be mature enough to accept him for what he was and for WHO he was? His demonic side should not have made their relationship "predestined" for failure.
What really annoys me about the Halliwell sisters is that they had this immature ideal about love and romance. They want the ideal - the perfectly handsome man, with his ridiculously ideal personality with no flaws or darkness. What makes this desire of theirs so ridiculous is that they were far from perfect and they had darkness within themselves, like every being in existence. And somehow, they could never accept that . . . except for Prue.
It's interesting that so many point out Cole's inability to let go of Phoebe, yet so few ever point out that Piper shared a similar trait.
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iamthesun
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Post by iamthesun on Dec 3, 2013 13:10:41 GMT -5
No, I know that Cole's demonic side shouldn't have automatically meant failure for their relationship..it should have made them more determined to make it work. I'm not sure I would say her not accepting Cole for who he was made her immature. Her role as a witch made her protect the innocent, made her think of their safety and what was best for them. Accepting Cole and his darker side would have felt wrong for Phoebe..vanquishing demons and then snuggling up to one when she got home..they were different ends of the spectrum..good and evil..perhaps she was never meant to truly except him.
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