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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2015 11:36:01 GMT -5
They may as well have renamed the show The Phoebe And Cole Show, Also Starring Some Other Characters.
S4 should have been solely devoted to establishing Paige. The Source rubbish could wait.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2015 21:53:57 GMT -5
Yeah I didn't like the Phoebe/Cole Source storyline latter part of season 4 either more than the introducing Paige part which I would've liked to have seen more of and had the sisters men be side parts to the show rather than the main plots being saving innocents like it was seasons 1&2. I mean you didn't need to see these guys 24/7 right just snippets here and there of them on dates or working wherever they did would've been okay rather than losing focus on what Charmed was really about then. That's truly how it became after Season 2. While the sisters still got smaller B Arcs (like Phoebe's Baby Daddy rubbish), the main A Arcs of the seasons always centered around one of their (usually male) costars. Think of Cole in Season 3 through early Season 5, or Chris in Season 6, or Leo in Season 7, or Billie in Season 8. The sisters and the Power of Three rarely ever got to be the main driving force of a season's main storyline under Kern's watch. Again, this was a missed opportunity with Paige's introduction. The new sister and reconstitution of the Power of Three should've brought the show back to its roots, before it became all about Cole, the Source, and Demon Brotherhoods. Paige and the new Power of Three SHOULD have been the main story of Season 4. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2015 23:22:28 GMT -5
I agree. Paige gave the show a chance to start fresh. They should have either pushed back the Dark Phoebe storyline, or dropped it altogether. Once Shannen was fired, it's a new role of the dice.
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Post by Sadrick on Aug 19, 2015 10:50:02 GMT -5
You know having rewatched Long Live the Queen, I realise that the series was suffering from glaring imperfections even back then. People like to hype up Phoebe's descent into evil and the events leading up to Cole's final vanquish (this isn't including the cesspool of character assassinations and sickening whimsical storylines that defines Season 5). Many people consider it to be in the top 10 best episodes of the entire series. My opinion is that for the most part it was perhaps one of the darkest in the series. You could say it was Phoebe at the peak of her narrative. How do I remember it now? Well, it goes back to my objections about how the writers treated Cole's character. It's not just the lack of consideration for how he "became" the Source that I and most others have a problem with. There were moments, glimpses in that episode where Cole could have killed Piper, Paige, and Leo, but he didn't. Remember when he killed the innocent? Of course, the atrocity committed against an innocent man is what was permeating throughout their immediate thoughts. I don't challenge their desire to prioritise lost innocents. That's actually a good thing compared to how they eventually shunned anyone who came between their "normal" lives. My concern stems from the fact that he could have easily killed the sisters. The Source was always stronger than the individual sisters or even two at a time. He had multiple opportunities to kill them, yet he refrained from sending anyone out against them. Now you could attribute his hesitancy to wanting to appease Phoebe. However, there was this moment right before the final vanquish that really stuck out to me. I'll show you the transcript.
In this instance, the sisters are the ones who cast the first stone. Even after being physically destroyed by Piper's explosive power, Cole still expressed hesitation in killing them. Phoebe wasn't even in the room with them at the time and, strictly from a viewpoint of the immediate situation with no prior actions considered, would have been justified in defending himself. But here we have Cole not wanting to kill them despite being blown up several times. It sort of goes back to another topic where I asked if Cole ever appreciated the sisters for what they meant to him on their own, not just as extensions of Phoebe's life.
What's your takeaway from that? Mine is that the Charmed Ones can get away with twisting the words and context of someone whom they're at odds with to make themselves be perceived as victims. Piper did just that in the above transcript, and we're supposed to consider these girls heroes? They didn't try to help Cole, or ask why he was evil once again. No, all they were thinking about was getting revenge on Cole because he represented the wedge that was thrown between their precious family; nevermind the fact that Cole was a victim himself. Sure, you can vanquish the Source so the immediate threat is neutralised, but don't pretend that everything is okay. Don't try and skew the fact that Cole didn't choose anything. The Source took control of him.
There's this conversation from Supernatural between Dean and Meg Masters, another innocent person who was unknowingly killed while being possessed, that I think fits the same context as Cole being possessed and the sisters mercilessly executing him. Let me paraphrase it...
Sound familiar? Cole was a prisoner in his own mind too, but do you want to know what made his situation even more tragic? It's the fact that eventually his human side began to overcome the Source. However, thanks to Phoebe of all people, he was forced to remain with the Source's powers and it ended up costing Cole his life. It's true that Phoebe was being influenced by her child and the Seer's whisperings, but that blood is still on her hands.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Aug 19, 2015 12:52:34 GMT -5
You know having rewatched Long Live the Queen, I realise that the series was suffering from glaring imperfections even back then. People like to hype up Phoebe's descent into evil and the events leading up to Cole's final vanquish (this isn't including the cesspool of character assassinations and sickening whimsical storylines that defines Season 5). Many people consider it to be in the top 10 best episodes of the entire series. My opinion is that for the most part it was perhaps one of the darkest in the series. You could say it was Phoebe at the peak of her narrative. How do I remember it now? Well, it goes back to my objections about how the writers treated Cole's character. It's not just the lack of consideration for how he "became" the Source that I and most others have a problem with. There were moments, glimpses in that episode where Cole could have killed Piper, Paige, and Leo, but he didn't. Remember when he killed the innocent? Of course, the atrocity committed against an innocent man is what was permeating throughout their immediate thoughts. I don't challenge their desire to prioritise lost innocents. That's actually a good thing compared to how they eventually shunned anyone who came between their "normal" lives. My concern stems from the fact that he could have easily killed the sisters. The Source was always stronger than the individual sisters or even two at a time. He had multiple opportunities to kill them, yet he refrained from sending anyone out against them. Now you could attribute his hesitancy to wanting to appease Phoebe. However, there was this moment right before the final vanquish that really stuck out to me. I'll show you the transcript. In this instance, the sisters are the ones who cast the first stone. Even after being physically destroyed by Piper's explosive power, Cole still expressed hesitation in killing them. Phoebe wasn't even in the room with them at the time and, strictly from a viewpoint of the immediate situation with no prior actions considered, would have been justified in defending himself. But here we have Cole not wanting to kill them despite being blown up several times. It sort of goes back to another topic where I asked if Cole ever appreciated the sisters for what they meant to him on their own, not just as extensions of Phoebe's life. What's your takeaway from that? Mine is that the Charmed Ones can get away with twisting the words and context of someone whom they're at odds with to make themselves be perceived as victims. Piper did just that in the above transcript, and we're supposed to consider these girls heroes? They didn't try to help Cole, or ask why he was evil once again. No, all they were thinking about was getting revenge on Cole because he represented the wedge that was thrown between their precious family; nevermind the fact that Cole was a victim himself. Sure, you can vanquish the Source so the immediate threat is neutralised, but don't pretend that everything is okay. Don't try and skew the fact that Cole didn't choose anything. The Source took control of him. There's this conversation from Supernatural between Dean and Meg Masters, another innocent person who was unknowingly killed while being possessed, that I think fits the same context as Cole being possessed and the sisters mercilessly executing him. Let me paraphrase it... Sound familiar? Cole was a prisoner in his own mind too, but do you want to know what made his situation even more tragic? It's the fact that eventually his human side began to overcome the Source. However, thanks to Phoebe of all people, he was forced to remain with the Source's powers and it ended up costing Cole his life. It's true that Phoebe was being influenced by her child and the Seer's whisperings, but that blood is still on her hands. I agree with most of this except for the bit about why Cole the Source did not kill Piper and Paige when he had the chance. The explanation for that is very simply if he did that he wouldn't have Phoebe as his queen and she was already pregnant with their son, what could've/should've been the most evil baby ever born were we to believe the Seer (and how I wish *he* had been rather than Wyatt!). No way Phoebe would've stayed with him if he got rid of both of her sisters. Get rid of one, maybe; but not both. |
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Post by Sadrick on Aug 19, 2015 13:43:56 GMT -5
You know having rewatched Long Live the Queen, I realise that the series was suffering from glaring imperfections even back then. People like to hype up Phoebe's descent into evil and the events leading up to Cole's final vanquish (this isn't including the cesspool of character assassinations and sickening whimsical storylines that defines Season 5). Many people consider it to be in the top 10 best episodes of the entire series. My opinion is that for the most part it was perhaps one of the darkest in the series. You could say it was Phoebe at the peak of her narrative. How do I remember it now? Well, it goes back to my objections about how the writers treated Cole's character. It's not just the lack of consideration for how he "became" the Source that I and most others have a problem with. There were moments, glimpses in that episode where Cole could have killed Piper, Paige, and Leo, but he didn't. Remember when he killed the innocent? Of course, the atrocity committed against an innocent man is what was permeating throughout their immediate thoughts. I don't challenge their desire to prioritise lost innocents. That's actually a good thing compared to how they eventually shunned anyone who came between their "normal" lives. My concern stems from the fact that he could have easily killed the sisters. The Source was always stronger than the individual sisters or even two at a time. He had multiple opportunities to kill them, yet he refrained from sending anyone out against them. Now you could attribute his hesitancy to wanting to appease Phoebe. However, there was this moment right before the final vanquish that really stuck out to me. I'll show you the transcript. In this instance, the sisters are the ones who cast the first stone. Even after being physically destroyed by Piper's explosive power, Cole still expressed hesitation in killing them. Phoebe wasn't even in the room with them at the time and, strictly from a viewpoint of the immediate situation with no prior actions considered, would have been justified in defending himself. But here we have Cole not wanting to kill them despite being blown up several times. It sort of goes back to another topic where I asked if Cole ever appreciated the sisters for what they meant to him on their own, not just as extensions of Phoebe's life. What's your takeaway from that? Mine is that the Charmed Ones can get away with twisting the words and context of someone whom they're at odds with to make themselves be perceived as victims. Piper did just that in the above transcript, and we're supposed to consider these girls heroes? They didn't try to help Cole, or ask why he was evil once again. No, all they were thinking about was getting revenge on Cole because he represented the wedge that was thrown between their precious family; nevermind the fact that Cole was a victim himself. Sure, you can vanquish the Source so the immediate threat is neutralised, but don't pretend that everything is okay. Don't try and skew the fact that Cole didn't choose anything. The Source took control of him. There's this conversation from Supernatural between Dean and Meg Masters, another innocent person who was unknowingly killed while being possessed, that I think fits the same context as Cole being possessed and the sisters mercilessly executing him. Let me paraphrase it... Sound familiar? Cole was a prisoner in his own mind too, but do you want to know what made his situation even more tragic? It's the fact that eventually his human side began to overcome the Source. However, thanks to Phoebe of all people, he was forced to remain with the Source's powers and it ended up costing Cole his life. It's true that Phoebe was being influenced by her child and the Seer's whisperings, but that blood is still on her hands. I agree with most of this except for the bit about why Cole the Source did not kill Piper and Paige when he had the chance. The explanation for that is very simply if he did that he wouldn't have Phoebe as his queen and she was already pregnant with their son, what could've/should've been the most evil baby ever born were we to believe the Seer (and how I wish *he* had been rather than Wyatt!). No way Phoebe would've stayed with him if he got rid of both of her sisters. Get rid of one, maybe; but not both. I see. Well I would like to hear your opinion on the matter, Esmeralda. Do you believe it was just Phoebe that was anchoring Cole to good? Or did he come to appreciate Prue, Piper, Leo, and Paige in his own way? Did he eventually grow to love them like his own family? Were they a motivating force in him trying to overcome the Source's influence? That's what I would like to know. In recent years, I've been more fascinated by Cole's relationship with the other sisters than with Phoebe herself. |
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Post by Esmeralda on Aug 19, 2015 14:24:44 GMT -5
I agree with most of this except for the bit about why Cole the Source did not kill Piper and Paige when he had the chance. The explanation for that is very simply if he did that he wouldn't have Phoebe as his queen and she was already pregnant with their son, what could've/should've been the most evil baby ever born were we to believe the Seer (and how I wish *he* had been rather than Wyatt!). No way Phoebe would've stayed with him if he got rid of both of her sisters. Get rid of one, maybe; but not both. I see. Well I would like to hear your opinion on the matter, Esmeralda. Do you believe it was just Phoebe that was anchoring Cole to good? Or did he come to appreciate Prue, Piper, Leo, and Paige in his own way? Did he eventually grow to love them like his own family? Were they a motivating force in him trying to overcome the Source's influence? That's what I would like to know. In recent years, I've been more fascinated by Cole's relationship with the other sisters than with Phoebe herself. No, I truly don't think it was ever anyone but Phoebe - I think he just used the others to be able to stay with Phoebe. Now had he not taken in the Source's powers and became the Source (I'm one of those who do *not* believe he was ever possessed by the Source anymore than he was ever "possessed" by Belthazor or that Phoebe ever succeeded in ever getting totally rid of Belthazor - how could she when he had been a mercenary demon for around 100 years? He was always just as much demon as he was the lawyer, and it was the lawyer who Phoebe loved, not the demon. The Hollow took in POWERS, not essences, and then returned them to the original owner after the Hollow was returned to its box. Since the Source was vanquished, his POWERS, not his essence, went into the nearest mortal - Cole - so it was Cole drunk on POWER that made him take the title of the Source and do the things he did, just like Richard in S6, ) perhaps eventually he would've. But at the time that he was vanquished the first time, I don't think so, and neither could he have felt that way about any of them with the way they treated him in S5. But keep in mind that I haven't watched any episode past "Sleuthing with the Enemy" since I can't stand watching PhoeME rather than Phoebs, so if more fans agreed with you, I'd probably have to accept the fact that he did. Also keep in mind that I really don't like Cole at all because if he was never around, my Phoebs never would've become PhoeME. It's the same reason why I don't like Leo (or any of the Elders) the original Angel of Destiny, Wyatt, Chris, Brody, Billie or Christy when it comes to the Charmed Ones. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2015 14:49:45 GMT -5
Many people point to Season 5 as the point where Cole's character hit the skids, but in reality, it was actually Season 4, starting with him becoming human in "Black as Cole" all the way up through the Source storyline. When the sisters willingly murdered Cole while he was under possession, that's when I knew that they never fully respected him as an equal. I'm glad that he didn't end the show with such a vile, horrible person like Phoebe.
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Post by Esmeralda on Aug 19, 2015 15:27:22 GMT -5
Except he wasn't under possession. It was NOT the Source that went into him - it was the Source's powers. He was ALWAYS Cole, but he was now the Source of All Evil - that was his title; it wasn't what possessed him. He was the one who became the vile person for not letting Phoebe or her sisters know about those powers so they could take them out of him, not her; not them - that came later when Chris showed up and PhoeME and Paige first stole Darryl's soul without permission and then set up Rick to be murdered. But not in S4. Self-centered PhoeME, oh, yes. Vile, no - that was Cole, especially when he kept listening to the Seer and dreamed of his evil son.
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Post by Sadrick on Aug 19, 2015 16:58:43 GMT -5
Well even if it is true that Cole and the Source were one in the same, which I find questionable given the dialogue in some of the episodes that made active attempts to separate the Source from Cole like they were different personalities or beings, I would still dispute that he was a victim given the circumstances. Cole was always more susceptible to turning because of his upbringing and the demonic half of his person. Piper actually cites this in The Demon Who Came In From The Cold while debating whether or not he should go undercover back to the Brotherhood. To Cole, being exposed to that kind of temptation in old familiar settings where evil is encouraged is like, to quote Piper, sending an alcoholic to a kegger. When he was in possession of the Source's powers, it must have felt like being an alcoholic swimming in whiskey all of the time.
No matter how you look at it, Cole was disadvantaged and condemned to damnation because of these various circumstances and people that kept trying to turn him.
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Post by lilchi7212 on Aug 19, 2015 17:46:53 GMT -5
Except he wasn't under possession. It was NOT the Source that went into him - it was the Source's powers. He was ALWAYS Cole, but he was now the Source of All Evil - that was his title; it wasn't what possessed him. He was the one who became the vile person for not letting Phoebe or her sisters know about those powers so they could take them out of him, not her; not them - that came later when Chris showed up and PhoeME and Paige first stole Darryl's soul without permission and then set up Rick to be murdered. But not in S4. Self-centered PhoeME, oh, yes. Vile, no - that was Cole, especially when he kept listening to the Seer and dreamed of his evil son. The Source is an evil esscence which possessed the bodies of numerous demons over the centuries. The essence will take a new host and merge with that host's own spirit, taking over their personality and consuming their own consciousness. So it sounds like on the outside he's Cole but on the inside he's not. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2015 18:10:05 GMT -5
The Source is an evil esscence which possessed the bodies of numerous demons over the centuries. The essence will take a new host and merge with that host's own spirit, taking over their personality and consuming their own consciousness. So it sounds like on the outside he's Cole but on the inside he's not. For once, I agree with you, Lilchi. Cole was under the possession of an evil essence, not unlike Shane at the start of the season. The sisters should've used their brains and tried to save him, not jump to conclusions and kill him. |
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Post by lilchi7212 on Aug 19, 2015 18:45:29 GMT -5
The Source is an evil esscence which possessed the bodies of numerous demons over the centuries. The essence will take a new host and merge with that host's own spirit, taking over their personality and consuming their own consciousness. So it sounds like on the outside he's Cole but on the inside he's not. For once, I agree with you, Lilchi. Cole was under the possession of an evil essence, not unlike Shane at the start of the season. The sisters should've used their brains and tried to save him, not jump to conclusions and kill him. So it kinda reminds me a bit of the yeerks from Animorphs where they enter a host body and take control of it. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2015 6:27:03 GMT -5
Honestly, I think the Dark Phoebe storyline should've been scrapped when Shannen was fired. As it was, it took too much time away that could've otherwise gone to developing Paige's character. Season 4 needed to be completely rewritten from their original plans, not kept the same but with Paige lazily inserted in place of Prue.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Aug 20, 2015 7:58:07 GMT -5
Well even if it is true that Cole and the Source were one in the same, which I find questionable given the dialogue in some of the episodes that made active attempts to separate the Source from Cole like they were different personalities or beings, I would still dispute that he was a victim given the circumstances. Cole was always more susceptible to turning because of his upbringing and the demonic half of his person. Piper actually cites this in The Demon Who Came In From The Cold while debating whether or not he should go undercover back to the Brotherhood. To Cole, being exposed to that kind of temptation in old familiar settings where evil is encouraged is like, to quote Piper, sending an alcoholic to a kegger. When he was in possession of the Source's powers, it must have felt like being an alcoholic swimming in whiskey all of the time. No matter how you look at it, Cole was disadvantaged and condemned to damnation because of these various circumstances and people that kept trying to turn him. Cole was doomed to damnation as soon as he was raised by his demonic mother rather than his father. Had his father raised him and taught him how to control Belthazor and never become Belthazor the mercenary demon for almost 100 years, he could've been the man Phoebe thought she loved (hence why it was obsession and not love, just like he was obsessed with her and never loved her); as is, he never could be. Theirs was a doomed relationship the moment they met, just like Piper and Leo should've been. |
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Post by lilchi7212 on Aug 20, 2015 8:19:42 GMT -5
Well even if it is true that Cole and the Source were one in the same, which I find questionable given the dialogue in some of the episodes that made active attempts to separate the Source from Cole like they were different personalities or beings, I would still dispute that he was a victim given the circumstances. Cole was always more susceptible to turning because of his upbringing and the demonic half of his person. Piper actually cites this in The Demon Who Came In From The Cold while debating whether or not he should go undercover back to the Brotherhood. To Cole, being exposed to that kind of temptation in old familiar settings where evil is encouraged is like, to quote Piper, sending an alcoholic to a kegger. When he was in possession of the Source's powers, it must have felt like being an alcoholic swimming in whiskey all of the time. No matter how you look at it, Cole was disadvantaged and condemned to damnation because of these various circumstances and people that kept trying to turn him. Cole was doomed to damnation as soon as he was raised by his demonic mother rather than his father. Had his father raised him and taught him how to control Belthazor and never become Belthazor the mercenary demon for almost 100 years, he could've been the man Phoebe thought she loved (hence why it was obsession and not love, just like he was obsessed with her and never loved her); as is, he never could be. Theirs was a doomed relationship the moment they met, just like Piper and Leo should've been. Give me a break how would Benjamin teach Cole to control his demon half when he's mortal? And no Cole really did love Phoebe or else why do what he did in Seven Year Witch? And no their relationship was not doomed from the start no matter what them dang gum writers want you to think. I think it had something to do with the choices they made that led them to their downfall. And P.S. Phoebe stated many times through out the series that she really did love Cole even to Coop. |
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Post by erikamarie on Aug 20, 2015 8:32:06 GMT -5
I think that the powers of the Source are similar to Elder's, remember Rasmus and the way he transferred his powers to Kevin
Cole was in control, he was able to tell the truth to the sisters
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Post by lilchi7212 on Aug 20, 2015 8:50:19 GMT -5
I think that the powers of the Source are similar to Elder's, remember Rasmus and the way he transferred his powers to Kevin Cole was in control, he was able to tell the truth to the sisters Give me break an Elder is just a Whitelighter who got promoted and I don't get how Kevin gets Ramuses powers when he's not even a whitelighter? Kevin was just a witch that somehow receives a dead elders powers when he's not even dead and he becomes an elder sorry but I think the writers screwed up. I don't get your last one. |
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Post by Esmeralda on Aug 20, 2015 18:30:23 GMT -5
I think that the powers of the Source are similar to Elder's, remember Rasmus and the way he transferred his powers to Kevin Cole was in control, he was able to tell the truth to the sisters You're exactly correct. The Source was vanquished by the Power of Three and some say by the power of the Matriarchs. He was gone. It was his powers that went into the Hollow and his powers that went from the Hollow into Cole making him the Source but still making him Cole. Just like he was always Belthazor - Phoebe's potion took away his powers, not almost 100 years of doing evil. A leopard doesn't change its spots that easily. Cole used thinking of himself as the Source (and with the Seer egging him on, letting him think that he and the Source were two different people when they weren't) the same way that he did with Belthazor - a way of distancing himself from what he was doing when he was doing evil. But it was always him. He was the one who was vile. If you don't want to think so, if you want to think that Phoebe's love could save him and the loss of Phoebe's love is what made him crazy, that's fine. Every fan is allowed their own opinion. But looking at what happened, this is mine. He was the one who was vile - not the sisters. |
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Post by Sadrick on Aug 21, 2015 20:09:35 GMT -5
It sounds like all of the evil committed in the latter of Season 4 is being ascribed to Cole as if it were a conscious decision made on his part from the outset to become the Source with no impetus given by outside parties or the newly settled essence of the Source that was occupying the void left in his body. We need to look back at the specific interactions that Cole had with the Seer to realise that she manipulated him into taking the Hollow by dangling the notion that Phoebe's life could only be saved through absorbing the Source's powers. If the roles were reversed and Leo was being enticed by the Seer to protect Piper by receiving the Hollow and absorbing the Source's powers, do you think he would object? Appealing to their protective natures with the people whom they care most for is how the Seer operated for much of S4.
Cole didn't choose to retain the Source's powers. The Seer conveniently left out that little tidbit about them holding on inside of him; yet after months of festering, the human side of Cole who desired Phoebe over being some demonic overlord was becoming dominant once again. We mustn't overlook that important piece of information because ultimately Source Cole was willing to relinquish his powers and become entirely mortal once again before his soul mate of all people appeared at the behest of the Seer to ruin his last chance at remaining alive.
What happens if the Source's powers had actually left Cole once the Hollow was returned? Is he still going to be prone towards vileness and traitorous thoughts despite not showing any indications of wanting to turn back prior to Charmed and Dangerous? Or are we in agreement that it was ultimately the Source's powers that influenced him to "accept" evil once again, regardless of whether he was possessed or not?
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