Esmeralda
Charmed
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Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
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Post by Esmeralda on Aug 22, 2015 9:43:23 GMT -5
Oh, I'll definitely agree that it wasn't Cole's choice to take in the powers - the Big Bad of Season Four was definitely the Seer, much more than either the Source or Cole - but it *was* Cole's choice once the powers were in him. And him using them and not telling the sisters so they could help him get rid of them is what makes him vile, especially at the beginning before he gave in totally to those powers and became more the Source than Cole - BUT he was still Cole, just as much as he was still Belthazor, just without Belthazor's powers - and he was always much more demon than the lawyer who Phoebe loved - she tried to convince herself that she also loved the demon, but as a Charmed One, she never could - she thought by being the queen she could stop the battle between good and evil - she couldn't.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2015 11:50:38 GMT -5
Sorry, Es, but you're dead wrong. In many of the Seer and Cole/Source conversations, Cole is referred to in the third person, even by Cole himself. That means this WASN'T Cole talking, it was the Source. Different being.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2015 19:54:23 GMT -5
Sorry, Es, but you're dead wrong. In many of the Seer and Cole/Source conversations, Cole is referred to in the third person, even by Cole himself. That means this WASN'T Cole talking, it was the Source. Different being. Exactly. That was not Cole, but instead, his body being used as the host for the Source. He was under possession by an evil entity, period. And, remember, that while it took demonic possession to make Cole choose the side of evil, Phoebe did it all on her own free will. Let's be honest, whatever influence the Phoetus had on her was negligible, and that was mostly just an excuse Season 5 pulled out of nowhere to absolve Phoebe of any blame for being Queen of the Underworld. Cole was willing to just let the wizard take the Source out of him, but guess who stopped that from happening?
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Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?" Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,920
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Post by Esmeralda on Aug 22, 2015 22:10:58 GMT -5
Sorry, Es, but you're dead wrong. In many of the Seer and Cole/Source conversations, Cole is referred to in the third person, even by Cole himself. That means this WASN'T Cole talking, it was the Source. Different being. Exactly. That was not Cole, but instead, his body being used as the host for the Source. He was under possession by an evil entity, period. And, remember, that while it took demonic possession to make Cole choose the side of evil, Phoebe did it all on her own free will. Let's be honest, whatever influence the Phoetus had on her was negligible, and that was mostly just an excuse Season 5 pulled out of nowhere to absolve Phoebe of any blame for being Queen of the Underworld. Cole was willing to just let the wizard take the Source out of him, but guess who stopped that from happening? Yes, I know he was. But that doesn't mean he wasn't. As I said, calling himself the Source was his way to separate himself from what he was doing. It was part of what made him vile. Compartmentalizing is what people like that do so they don't feel guilty about what they do. He could not be possessed by an entity that had been vanquished. Only the powers went into him - NOT the essence - because only the power went into the Hollow. If he was truly possessed by the Source he would've killed the Charmed Ones without a second thought. But he himself said he couldn't because "Cole's love of Phoebe". The Source had no such love. So Cole was not possessed - Cole *WAS* the Source and used the idea of being the Source the same way he used Belthazor. My little sister did that. Her name is Carol Ann. When she was little and we tried to make her say "Caro" she instead said "No, I'm Annie!" so she became Annie. When Mom was potty-training her, and "Annie" had an accident, Mom would say, "Annie!" and my sister would say, "Annie didn't do it! Carol did!". So the next time she had an accident, "Carol!" "Carol didn't do it! Annie did." The same is true for Cole and Belthazor and Cole and the Source. Sorry, BettyNewbie, you're the one who's dead wrong. You can only be possessed or not be possessed. If Cole was possessed, he would've killed the Charmed Ones. He didn't. He was always Cole, even when he was the Source. Think of Shane in "Charmed Again" or those people who Paige saw at the end of that episode. THAT was possession. Paige was not possessed by the Source. Neither was Cole. The powers made him the Source, and he accepted them and embraced them and did evil with them, even pretending that he was still Cole when he could've/should've told the Charmed Ones so they could help him get rid of the powers the way they got rid of Belthazor's power. But he never did. Instead he tried to drive the only person who saw through him - Paige - crazy. He was vile. So, you are indeed dead wrong. It took me a long time to realize this - I was one of the first to say he was possessed in my "Charmed Forever". But I know I was dead wrong. Now I hope you can admit it, too.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2015 23:29:33 GMT -5
Sorry, BettyNewbie, you're the one who's dead wrong. You can only be possessed or not be possessed. If Cole was possessed, he would've killed the Charmed Ones. He didn't. He was always Cole, even when he was the Source. Think of Shane in "Charmed Again" or those people who Paige saw at the end of that episode. THAT was possession. Paige was not possessed by the Source. Neither was Cole. The powers made him the Source, and he accepted them and embraced them and did evil with them, even pretending that he was still Cole when he could've/should've told the Charmed Ones so they could help him get rid of the powers the way they got rid of Belthazor's power. But he never did. Instead he tried to drive the only person who saw through him - Paige - crazy. He was vile. So, you are indeed dead wrong. It took me a long time to realize this - I was one of the first to say he was possessed in my "Charmed Forever". But I know I was dead wrong. Now I hope you can admit it, too. Nope, I didn't see any of that in the show, but then again, I'm not blinded by hatred for the character. They should've just scrapped the Dark Phoebe storyline after Shannen was fired, anyways. It stole away a lot of spotlight and character development that could've otherwise gone to Paige.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2015 23:35:19 GMT -5
Looks like Es has found a new whipping boy. What's wrong, Es, was hating Chris not enough for you.
The reason he didn't kill the Charmed Ones is because the Source could not suppress all of Cole. Part of him was fighting back.
Lots of little kids do this, they blame their misdeeds on an imaginary friend. This has NOTHING to do with possession. You're not exactly making yourself sound more credible here, Es.
And you would know this how exactly. You work in a flower shop, you're not paranormal expert. Stop trying to sound like one.
And when the Source took them over, their eyes turned obsidian black. The same thing happened to Cole. You just shot down your own argument here, Es.
The Source made him the Source. The Wizard even said that the Source had taken Cole over. And, once again, I must point out that when the Source had taken him over, Cole often spoke of himself in the third person.
The Source, not Cole, tried to drive Paige crazy, for the reason you just cited.
Seriously, Es, let go of the Cole hate and see what really happened, okay.
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Post by Chrisaholic on Aug 23, 2015 6:33:15 GMT -5
If I remember correctly this season 4 (it's been some time here), after the Seer had orchestrated her "wish world" with Cole as the Hollow taking in the Source's powers, and the Hollow sent back, Cole and The Source had an inner disput if you want to call it. Cole as human feared being taken over and his love for Phoebe saved him in a way, yet the Source was more powerful and therefore Cole was shrunk back in his own mind. That's why referring of himself in a third person. Seemed to be something for Freud but I'm not a specialist in that case. It's just what I gathered and found out myself, because in a way, it makes the only sense for me.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2015 23:02:49 GMT -5
Regardless of whether the Source fully possessed Cole or not, I just hated how Phoebe (and the sisters) assumed that Cole had chosen to become the Source during Season 5+, when in actual fact, he only absorbed the Hollow to save them.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2015 23:37:13 GMT -5
Yep, that was the later seasons Charmed Ones. Vain and selfish creatures who cared only for themselves. Inncents? F*ck em! We clothes to buy and baby daddies to find.
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Esmeralda
Charmed
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Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
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Post by Esmeralda on Aug 24, 2015 8:41:33 GMT -5
Regardless of whether the Source fully possessed Cole or not, I just hated how Phoebe (and the sisters) assumed that Cole had chosen to become the Source during Season 5+, when in actual fact, he only absorbed the Hollow to save them. No, him absorbing it had absolutely nothing to do with him wanting to save them, because he didn't absorb the Source. It was Phoebe and the Seer who "saved" the Charmed Ones. The Source's powers (not his essence) went into the one who no longer had his powers - Cole - Cole had no choice in the matter. What he had choice in was not letting the sisters know what had happened - he enjoyed being the Source too much, especially if he could also have Phoebe, something the Source wouldn't have wanted. By the way, Deano, welcome back!!! I love getting to read your stuff again, especially because I know we can agree to disagree!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2015 12:08:44 GMT -5
Regardless of whether the Source fully possessed Cole or not, I just hated how Phoebe (and the sisters) assumed that Cole had chosen to become the Source during Season 5+, when in actual fact, he only absorbed the Hollow to save them. No, him absorbing it had absolutely nothing to do with him wanting to save them, because he didn't absorb the Source. It was Phoebe and the Seer who "saved" the Charmed Ones. The Source's powers (not his essence) went into the one who no longer had his powers - Cole - Cole had no choice in the matter. What he had choice in was not letting the sisters know what had happened - he enjoyed being the Source too much, especially if he could also have Phoebe, something the Source wouldn't have wanted. By the way, Deano, welcome back!!! I love getting to read your stuff again, especially because I know we can agree to disagree! Thanks, Es. Sorry, I didn't mean to check out for so long, where has this year gone! Because the intricacies of the story-line were so inconsistent on the show it gets so confusing, but I think we're in agreement here. I still felt sorry for Cole because he took in the Hollow with good intentions, unknowingly signing his own death warrant. I suppose he did succumb to the power of the Source, but I tend to think of it more like injecting heroin into an ex drug addict and expecting them not to become addicted again.
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Post by lilchi7212 on Aug 24, 2015 14:30:05 GMT -5
Regardless of whether the Source fully possessed Cole or not, I just hated how Phoebe (and the sisters) assumed that Cole had chosen to become the Source during Season 5+, when in actual fact, he only absorbed the Hollow to save them. No, him absorbing it had absolutely nothing to do with him wanting to save them, because he didn't absorb the Source. It was Phoebe and the Seer who "saved" the Charmed Ones. The Source's powers (not his essence) went into the one who no longer had his powers - Cole - Cole had no choice in the matter. What he had choice in was not letting the sisters know what had happened - he enjoyed being the Source too much, especially if he could also have Phoebe, something the Source wouldn't have wanted. By the way, Deano, welcome back!!! I love getting to read your stuff again, especially because I know we can agree to disagree! The Source is an evil esscence which possessed the bodies of numerous demons over the centuries. The essence will take a new host and merge with that host's own spirit, taking over their personality and consuming their own consciousness. So it sounds like on the outside he's Cole but on the inside he's not. Which I stated earlier. Why he didn't tell sisters? well alot of possibilities. 1. What Old Phoebe said earlier when they found out they had to vanquishhim anyway. 2. Fear or the Fear to get shunned again by Phoebe like what happened in season 3. I betcha the Source in his mind probably reminded Cole of that. 3. The Source was already in control by the time Three Faces of Phoebe had ended. 4. The writers probably left it up to the audience to discuss. 5. The writers did it to create drama.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2015 16:57:53 GMT -5
Yep, that was the later seasons Charmed Ones. Vain and selfish creatures who cared only for themselves. Inncents? F*ck em! We clothes to buy and baby daddies to find. Plus, they needed to write Cole off the show and give Phoebe an excuse to start sleeping around, and what better way to do it than to fudge a few details and make him look like the Bad Guy? No wonder fans started to wish it was Phoebe who had been sent through that wall.
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Post by lilchi7212 on Aug 24, 2015 17:22:29 GMT -5
Yep, that was the later seasons Charmed Ones. Vain and selfish creatures who cared only for themselves. Inncents? F*ck em! We clothes to buy and baby daddies to find. Plus, they needed to write Cole off the show and give Phoebe an excuse to start sleeping around, and what better way to do it than to fudge a few details and make him look like the Bad Guy? No wonder fans started to wish it was Phoebe who had been sent through that wall. Yeah it was the Never Again,We Trust, We First Always attitude
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Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?" Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,920
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Post by Esmeralda on Aug 24, 2015 20:14:17 GMT -5
No, him absorbing it had absolutely nothing to do with him wanting to save them, because he didn't absorb the Source. It was Phoebe and the Seer who "saved" the Charmed Ones. The Source's powers (not his essence) went into the one who no longer had his powers - Cole - Cole had no choice in the matter. What he had choice in was not letting the sisters know what had happened - he enjoyed being the Source too much, especially if he could also have Phoebe, something the Source wouldn't have wanted. By the way, Deano, welcome back!!! I love getting to read your stuff again, especially because I know we can agree to disagree! Thanks, Es. Sorry, I didn't mean to check out for so long, where has this year gone! Amazing how fast it can go! I'm just glad you decided to come back. I don't see anything too intricate in this. Tell me where in any of this where Cole has any intentions as far as taking in the Hollow. It went into him. He had no choice in the matter. Yes, it wasn't his fault that it did, but yes it is with what he did with it once it was, so I don't feel in the least-bit sorry for him. In this case, I feel sorry for the three sisters he betrayed. Source: charmedscripts.tv/charmed_and_dangerous.htmThis is when he should've told her. He didn't. Yes, what he did before this was heroic, hence the reason Phoebe treats him this way. What he did at this point as far as the Source's powers go was anything but.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2015 0:09:26 GMT -5
Again, Es, I point out that in many of the conversations between Cole/The Source and the Seer, Cole is referred to in the third person. It's not he's not even there. It was not Cole talking, it was the Source!
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Post by Sadrick on Aug 25, 2015 0:24:22 GMT -5
Okay, let's take an alternate perspective of this scenario. Say Paige was somehow deprived of the Whitelighter half of her genetic composition just as Cole lost his demonic alter-ego. You now have an unoccupied void in her soul that's ripe for some other magical essence to complete it. Instead of Cole taking in the Hollow and absorbing the Source's powers, it's Paige who becomes the Seer's guinea pig. Since the powers are latched onto that uncompleted part of her soul, they're retained even after the Hollow has been removed. Now there are some key differences between Paige and Cole that would need to be taken into account. Firstly, half of her person still retains the witchly inheritance from Patty; meaning you have two supernaturally powered essences of the same dualistic coin fighting for dominance inside Paige. Cole didn't have such natural resistances when he absorbed the powers because his father was human. Secondly, Paige's upbringing wasn't rife with demonic indoctrinations about killing, hating, and taking what you want with impunity like some psychopath. Cole's situation was pretty much the demonic equivalent to a drinker/drug addict coming off a century's old high. It was a constant struggle for him to suppress the temptation during that time when he was living with the sisters. For him, acquiring the Source's powers must have felt like a jolt of ecstasy and excitement the likes of which he never felt before. On the other hand, Paige wasn't raised to be like that. The most you could say which they had in common in terms of upbringing was that they shared a streak of independence coupled with desire to make a name for themselves.
In spite of all the differing circumstances, would you be confident enough to place your trust in Paige overcoming the temptation of the Source's powers? Sure, there's little doubt about her turning to her newly beloved sisters for support in removing them. But if they were allowed enough time to fester, how likely is it that she could keep them under control? The Source is far beyond any evil that the sisters have been tainted by over the course of the series. Yes, specific powers do come with some kind of moral attachment or prerequisite. Remember when Prue switched powers with Alec the Darklighter? She explained how the trigger to using his abilities involved an intense surge of hatred. Fast forward to Phoebe being pregnant with the Source's heir and we see how even she was made susceptible to dark temptation.
With Paige as the new source, is it probable that Piper and Phoebe would resolve themselves to kill their half-sister? Or would they allow their personal bias to override their Charmed obligations by allowing Paige to continue living and committing evil? Would they blame Paige for "choosing" to become the Source like they did with Cole? That's what I would like to know.
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Post by lilchi7212 on Aug 26, 2015 12:15:04 GMT -5
Thanks, Es. Sorry, I didn't mean to check out for so long, where has this year gone! Amazing how fast it can go! I'm just glad you decided to come back. I don't see anything too intricate in this. Tell me where in any of this where Cole has any intentions as far as taking in the Hollow. It went into him. He had no choice in the matter. Yes, it wasn't his fault that it did, but yes it is with what he did with it once it was, so I don't feel in the least-bit sorry for him. In this case, I feel sorry for the three sisters he betrayed. Source: charmedscripts.tv/charmed_and_dangerous.htmThis is when he should've told her. He didn't. Yes, what he did before this was heroic, hence the reason Phoebe treats him this way. What he did at this point as far as the Source's powers go was anything but. He didn't know then! He didn't find out until the next episode that the esscence of the Source was in him now.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2015 18:57:00 GMT -5
Okay, let's take an alternate perspective of this scenario. Say Paige was somehow deprived of the Whitelighter half of her genetic composition just as Cole lost his demonic alter-ego. You now have an unoccupied void in her soul that's ripe for some other magical essence to complete it. Instead of Cole taking in the Hollow and absorbing the Source's powers, it's Paige who becomes the Seer's guinea pig. Since the powers are latched onto that uncompleted part of her soul, they're retained even after the Hollow has been removed. Now there are some key differences between Paige and Cole that would need to be taken into account. Firstly, half of her person still retains the witchly inheritance from Patty; meaning you have two supernaturally powered essences of the same dualistic coin fighting for dominance inside Paige. Cole didn't have such natural resistances when he absorbed the powers because his father was human. Secondly, Paige's upbringing wasn't rife with demonic indoctrinations about killing, hating, and taking what you want with impunity like some psychopath. Cole's situation was pretty much the demonic equivalent to a drinker/drug addict coming off a century's old high. It was a constant struggle for him to suppress the temptation during that time when he was living with the sisters. For him, acquiring the Source's powers must have felt like a jolt of ecstasy and excitement the likes of which he never felt before. On the other hand, Paige wasn't raised to be like that. The most you could say which they had in common in terms of upbringing was that they shared a streak of independence coupled with desire to make a name for themselves. In spite of all the differing circumstances, would you be confident enough to place your trust in Paige overcoming the temptation of the Source's powers? Sure, there's little doubt about her turning to her newly beloved sisters for support in removing them. But if they were allowed enough time to fester, how likely is it that she could keep them under control? The Source is far beyond any evil that the sisters have been tainted by over the course of the series. Yes, specific powers do come with some kind of moral attachment or prerequisite. Remember when Prue switched powers with Alec the Darklighter? She explained how the trigger to using his abilities involved an intense surge of hatred. Fast forward to Phoebe being pregnant with the Source's heir and we see how even she was made susceptible to dark temptation. With Paige as the new source, is it probable that Piper and Phoebe would resolve themselves to kill their half-sister? Or would they allow their personal bias to override their Charmed obligations by allowing Paige to continue living and committing evil? Would they blame Paige for "choosing" to become the Source like they did with Cole? That's what I would like to know. What a good analogy. I suppose this is evidenced when the sisters faked their death and Paige could literally not ignore her 'inner-Whitelighter' whether it be the calls from Billie or keeping out that woman getting mugged. The other sisters seemed to ignore their witch lives a lot easier.
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Post by adzpower on Sept 28, 2015 14:49:45 GMT -5
I've always found it funny that really Paige was the only character in the end that was actually a decent Charmed One, the girl who wasn't part of the original P3, the girl who wasn't raised with the others, the girl who had less time with her magic.
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