Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?"
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Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
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Post by Esmeralda on Aug 12, 2015 22:54:16 GMT -5
We've discussed this many, many times, but I found this at another site and I think they've hit the nail on the head better than anything else I've read - probably the main reason why I only have S1-3 on DVD: The OP wrote: Their attitudes and behaviors changed and not for the better. Piper and Phoebe became more and more naive and as the series progressed, it got easier and easier to manipulate them. Another member replied: The seeds for change were placed in season 3. Prue was nothing like her original character, but her change was actually welcomed. Phoebe grew into the selfish Cole obsessed monster she became. As for Piper, well she hadn't dropped down to her complete low just yet..but she was getting there.
I always break it down like this:
Seasons 1-2: Charmed probably should have stuck to this formula. Monster/innocent of the week is not necessarily good, but it has been proven that Charmed could not handle anything beyond that.
Seasons 3-4: Charmed tries to take itself seriously, and it isn't so bad...but it could be better. The darker approach would have been nice if the sisters grew as characters, but the regression began immedietly in season 3.
Seasons 5-7: A cluster of madness! Season 5 is entertaining, as is 7, but the entire era is still a mess. This is what Charmd really is: a poorly written comedic trainwreck you can't look away from!
Season 8: Just bad. The show doesn't resemble its former self in anyway, shape, or form this season. A third member replied: You pretty much hit the nail on the head of what they got right and what went HORRIBLY wrong.
We started with a show celebrating sisterhood and the blessings and trials that came with that bond. The Halliwells were sisters who just happened to be witches charged with the destiny to stop evil all the while becoming stronger as a previously estranged family unit. We end up with Sex and the City plus powers minus the style and humor multiplied by "I NEED A MAN SO I CAN HAVE ALL THE BABIES EVER!! Also, aren't whitelighters so much cooler than witches?? Let's concentrate on them more." The bond of sisterhood is pushed aside for a more friendship-based dynamic that eventually deteriorates into "Isn't being roommates fun?!?...sometimes. Y'know, unless it gets in the way of our boy toys.
And what sense did it EVER make to separate the Power of Three for the sake of men? Leo didn't mind living in the manor. The least they should have considered was buying Dan's old home. Having three women who are the strongest force of good AND usually humanity's only hope for survival all separate on account of "I just need alittle space" was selfish in my opinion. If Prue were alive, that NEVER would have happened. I can understand Piper being alone and Paige was gearing up to being a pretty powerful whitelighter (not witch. She'd need witch powers for that) but Phoebe HAD no powers!! She was the weakest link and that link could have easily been severed by even a low-level demon. THEN where would the Charmed Ones be? Hopefully Patty has another secret half-whitelighter kid stashed away somewhere. Otherwise, the Power of Two was gonna have to do. I agree totally. What about you? |
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Post by Sadrick on Aug 13, 2015 0:40:22 GMT -5
They don't really go into specifics on how Season 3 was the beginning of the sisters' characterisation deterioration, or how Prue was changing. Mostly their criticism is directed towards the later years when they became emotionally callous husks who are more concerned with their personal comfort and gratification than the sisterhood or mission. I can agree with them on that part, but to say things like Phoebe being Cole obsessed? She was only with him for roughly two years, and in the third she had ample reason to be "obsessed" since he became pretty much the most dangerous adversary they had ever come across and was mad for her (it took inconsistent writing on the part of the Avatars' immunity to space and time for him to be made killable once again). And does anyone remember when Imara sent two demons after Phoebe while she was confined to a limited space inside of an elevator? She may not have any offensive powers, but her intuition and training has been allowing her to defend herself since Gabriel in Season 1.
Charmed did excel best when it was dedicated to the original premise which Constance intended for it. The later seasons prove that overarching storylines aren't its strong-suit, but I won't say that S3-4 wasn't good because it was. To many, those seasons were looked upon as being the highpoint of Charmed before the show became a self-parody of itself
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Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?"
Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,920
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Post by Esmeralda on Aug 13, 2015 1:27:19 GMT -5
LOL, maybe I should've used a different subject title...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2015 10:55:09 GMT -5
I could definitely see the show starting to change for the worse in Season 3. Prue started to become more of a hard@ss obsessed with killing demons, Piper's marriage to Leo marked the beginning of her "I want a normal life" whining, and Phoebe lying to her sisters about vanquishing Cole was the birth of PhoeMe.
The show also started to become more action-oriented (see Prue at the end of "Primrose Empath," the training scenes from "Blinded by the Whitelighter," and "Wrestling With Demons"), and there was a noticeable drop in warlock appearances compared to Seasons 1-2. Demons (who were now just "demons" and not "Demons of ______" like in the first two seasons) were already starting to replace them as the main villains.
The snoozefest Demon Brotherhood storyline from late Season 3 also marked the first time that the sisters played second-fiddle to one of their costars. Cole was the first male love interest to get a storyline and character development independent of the sisters (compared to Andy, Dan, and early Leo), even overshadowing them at many times.
And, of course, Season 3 was when we first saw Up There and when the Founders started to become the Elders.
Season 3 still had a lot of good in it, but you could tell that Kern was starting to make his mark on the show.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2015 11:04:38 GMT -5
Of course, this was the season that Kern seized power from Connie. No doubt that is why these changes started happening then.
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Nimue
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Post by Nimue on Aug 13, 2015 12:01:42 GMT -5
I could definitely see the show starting to change for the worse in Season 3. Prue started to become more of a hard@ss obsessed with killing demons, Piper's marriage to Leo marked the beginning of her "I want a normal life" whining, and Phoebe lying to her sisters about vanquishing Cole was the birth of PhoeMe. The show also started to become more action-oriented (see Prue at the end of "Primrose Empath," the training scenes from "Blinded by the Whitelighter," and "Wrestling With Demons"), and there was a noticeable drop in warlock appearances compared to Seasons 1-2. Demons (who were now just "demons" and not "Demons of ______" like in the first two seasons) were already starting to replace them as the main villains. The snoozefest Demon Brotherhood storyline from late Season 3 also marked the first time that the sisters played second-fiddle to one of their costars. Cole was the first male love interest to get a storyline and character development independent of the sisters (compared to Andy, Dan, and early Leo), even overshadowing them at many times. And, of course, Season 3 was when we first saw Up There and when the Founders started to become the Elders. Season 3 still had a lot of good in it, but you could tell that Kern was starting to make his mark on the show.
What they should have done with the demons is provide some balance with the warlocks (and add more darklighters), instead of mostly focusing on demons and shoving the others to the side.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2015 13:06:15 GMT -5
A lot of those things are what make Season 3 one of my favorite seasons: the action, more demons, the Brotherhood storyline... I don't mind that Phoebe lied to her sisters: it provided conflict, and showed that she's not perfect, that she's perfectly capable of making serious mistakes. It didn't surprise me at all, just like it didn't surprise me that Prue should become obsessed with killing demons. Yeah, I know very well that a lot of fans love the changes Kern made to the show in Season 3. They loved the show becoming darker and more action-oriented and more centered around demons (especially Cole). (Basically, the show became more like Buffy.) For me, though, it felt like the show was starting to lose its way. The sisters were starting to turn into people that annoyed me, at best, and they were starting to play second-fiddle in what was supposed to be their series. (As much as fans rag on Chris and Billie for overshadowing the sisters, Cole wasn't much better. That more people liked him and that he was played by a far better actor doesn't change this fact.) Even though story arcs are supposed to be a stronger form of storytelling, they weren't in the hands of the Charmed writers. I'd have much rather taken just three or four solid seasons of Monster of the Week over eight seasons of botched storytelling and terrible continuity. |
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Nimue
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Post by Nimue on Aug 13, 2015 13:36:05 GMT -5
A lot of those things are what make Season 3 one of my favorite seasons: the action, more demons, the Brotherhood storyline... I don't mind that Phoebe lied to her sisters: it provided conflict, and showed that she's not perfect, that she's perfectly capable of making serious mistakes. It didn't surprise me at all, just like it didn't surprise me that Prue should become obsessed with killing demons. Yeah, I know very well that a lot of fans love the changes Kern made to the show in Season 3. They loved the show becoming darker and more action-oriented and more centered around demons (especially Cole). (Basically, the show became more like Buffy.) For me, though, it felt like the show was starting to lose its way. The sisters were starting to turn into people that annoyed me, at best, and they were starting to play second-fiddle in what was supposed to be their series. (As much as fans rag on Chris and Billie for overshadowing the sisters, Cole wasn't much better. That more people liked him and that he was played by a far better actor doesn't change this fact.) Even though story arcs are supposed to be a stronger form of storytelling, they weren't in the hands of the Charmed writers. I'd have much rather taken just three or four solid seasons of Monster of the Week over eight seasons of botched storytelling and terrible continuity.
I never saw the sisters as playing second-fiddle; the Phoebe-Cole story may have taken up a lot of screen time, but so did the Piper-Leo-Dan love triangle in Season 2 (which I personally found boring). And in Season 1, Prue had Andy. In the first two seasons, Phoebe didn't have much going on the love department, which is probably why there was big focus on Phoebe/Cole in Season 3 (that's just my opinion). What's more, they had to have Cole do something, he couldn't just hang around the way Leo did, and do nothing: he was sent by the Source to kill the Sisters, after all, and failed.
Now, about the Halliwells changing: apart from Piper, the changes Phoebe and Prue went through make sense. Prue was always cautious, protective, and obsessive: it makes sense that after learning about the Source and the Triad she would become more focused on demon-hunting, on trying to protect her sisters. As for Phoebe... Cole was her first real serious relationship, her first real love. When she lied to Prue and Piper she was trying to get over Cole's betrayal, over finding out who he really was and what he really wanted, on trying to make sense of their relationship. She was in shock, she wasn't thinking clearly. The big changes came in Season 5. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2015 14:17:13 GMT -5
An understatement to say the least  Season Five was when me and a lot of Charmed fans said WTF?? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2015 18:26:41 GMT -5
I never saw the sisters as playing second-fiddle; the Phoebe-Cole story may have taken up a lot of screen time, but so did the Piper-Leo-Dan love triangle in Season 2 (which I personally found boring). And in Season 1, Prue had Andy. In the first two seasons, Phoebe didn't have much going on the love department, which is probably why there was big focus on Phoebe/Cole in Season 3 (that's just my opinion). What's more, they had to have Cole do something, he couldn't just hang around the way Leo did, and do nothing: he was sent by the Source to kill the Sisters, after all, and failed. I think the big difference between Phoebe/Cole and Prue/Andy and Piper/Leo/Dan is that the latter two were mostly just side stories to the larger story of the Charmed Ones and the Power of Three. They never took precedence over the sisters saving innocents or the Monster of the Week. Phoebe/Cole, on the other hand, got entire, major storylines devoted to them and frequently overshadowed the other sisters. The Demon Brotherhood stuff was 100% Cole with only Phoebe tangentially involved. There's no question that the Charmed Ones played second fiddle to him in those last few episodes of Season 3 (sans the finale). And, then, there's Season 4, which was SUPPOSED to be about introducing Paige and reconstituting the Power of Three, but quickly turned into another Phoebe/Cole-fest. ("A Paige from the Past" and "Saving Private Leo" being some of the worst examples, where Phoebe/Cole and their B Plot got more screentime than the characters these episodes were named after.) That was, perhaps, the biggest change Kern made to the show, this constant need to shove the sisters into the background and give the main spotlight to their love interests/costars, whether it be Cole in Seasons 3-4, Chris in Season 6, Leo in Season 7, or Billie in Season 8. Now, about the Halliwells changing: apart from Piper, the changes Phoebe and Prue went through make sense. Prue was always cautious, protective, and obsessive: it makes sense that after learning about the Source and the Triad she would become more focused on demon-hunting, on trying to protect her sisters. As for Phoebe... Cole was her first real serious relationship, her first real love. When she lied to Prue and Piper she was trying to get over Cole's betrayal, over finding out who he really was and what he really wanted, on trying to make sense of their relationship. She was in shock, she wasn't thinking clearly. Seeing as they were all turning into characters I despised, I find it hard to agree with you. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2015 7:02:47 GMT -5
This is not unique to Charmed. When the original creator leaves or is pushed out, and someone else takes over, the show usually strays from its original premise.
A good example of this would be what happened to the show, Sliders, in the 1990's.
The show, created by Tracy Torme, is best in its first two seasons, that were shot here in Canada (in Vancouver). This was when it stuck to its premise, namely four people travelling to various parallel Earths, each where history went slightly different. One had the Russians winning the Cold War and taking over North America, another had the U.S. losing its war of Independence. These were good episodes.
Sadly, in season three it all went downhill. Production moved to Los Angeles and Fox (the network Sliders aired on) got involved. Tracy Torme was eased out and the premise changed. It basically turned into a Movie Rip-Off show (movies such as Twisters, The Island Of Dr. Moreau, and Jurassic Park come to mind here). One of the stars of the show, John Rhys-Davis, was very critical and some say this is what led him to leave the show. Can't say I blame him.
Ratings plummeted and Fox cancelled it. It ran for two more seasons on the Sci-Fi Channel, but it never regained the charm of the first two seasons.
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Post by Sadrick on Aug 14, 2015 7:59:06 GMT -5
I'm watching Season 4 on television right now and there's just something noticeably different about it compared to S1-2. In fact, it even feels like an oddity compared to Season 3. The demons were garbed and acted more similarly to the generic medieval-wannabe minions in following seasons. They were depicted as being less dangerous individually with an emphasis on quantity instead. At least in S3 they still felt somewhat threatening on an individual basis and were largely interpreted in a modern fashion instead of appearing like they belong in the Dark Ages. I also never noticed how much more sex there was. This may have been the time when the network began to use more sex appeal for rating. The Power of Three and sisterhood was becoming less prominent with greater focus on the them going off on their own adventures instead of staying together to fight against the supernatural. I guess Piper's new explosive power took a lot of the suspense and danger our of the series.
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Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?"
Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,920
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Post by Esmeralda on Aug 14, 2015 9:46:31 GMT -5
I'm watching Season 4 on television right now and there's just something noticeably different about it compared to S1-2. In fact, it even feels like an oddity compared to Season 3. The demons were garbed and acted more similarly to the generic medieval-wannabe minions in following seasons. They were depicted as being less dangerous individually with an emphasis on quantity instead. At least in S3 they still felt somewhat threatening on an individual basis and were largely interpreted in a modern fashion instead of appearing like they belong in the Dark Ages. I also never noticed how much more sex there was. This may have been the time when the network began to use more sex appeal for rating. The Power of Three and sisterhood was becoming less prominent with greater focus on the them going off on their own adventures instead of staying together to fight against the supernatural. I guess Piper's new explosive power took a lot of the suspense and danger our of the series. Keep in mind that not only was Shannen no longer part of Charmed, but Buffy was no longer part of TheWB - they had jumped ship to the UPN during the hiatus between these two season - so TheWB saw Charmed as their way of saving their network, and the only way they thought they could do that was via sex. Was Charmed on a broadcast network, "Witch Way Now?" probably would've been the final episode. All part of why I count S4 as part of the alternate-universe spin-off where the only thing the same is the name of the characters. Also the reason why I've never bought the S4-S8 DVDs and never would waste my money on them. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2015 10:59:30 GMT -5
I'm watching Season 4 on television right now and there's just something noticeably different about it compared to S1-2. In fact, it even feels like an oddity compared to Season 3. The demons were garbed and acted more similarly to the generic medieval-wannabe minions in following seasons. They were depicted as being less dangerous individually with an emphasis on quantity instead. At least in S3 they still felt somewhat threatening on an individual basis and were largely interpreted in a modern fashion instead of appearing like they belong in the Dark Ages. I also never noticed how much more sex there was. This may have been the time when the network began to use more sex appeal for rating. The Power of Three and sisterhood was becoming less prominent with greater focus on the them going off on their own adventures instead of staying together to fight against the supernatural. I guess Piper's new explosive power took a lot of the suspense and danger our of the series. Well, a lot more changed in Season 4 than just the addition of Paige. I've heard that it was the first season Connie Burge had zero involvement with (she was a consultant for Season 3), and as Es pointed out, it was the first season after Buffy left for UPN. It was also the first full season where Piper had her explosion power. Somehow, I don't think Season 4 would've been that much different had Shannen stayed. In fact, it might have been worse, because the introducing Paige stuff was the best part of Season 4, IMO. Without Paige, it probably would've been 100% Phoebe/Cole, all the time. |
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Post by adzpower on Aug 14, 2015 11:16:17 GMT -5
I'm conflicted when it comes to seasons 3-4, I love them, they are my favorite seasons, but what with Shannen quitting just as Kern is announced as the head honcho for the show I can't help but feel that she was borrowing Phoebe's powers and could see a rotten future for the show and opted out while it was still considered good. For me season 4 was terrific, I enjoyed the intro for Paige and getting to know her, some stuff felt rushed but overall I think it was good.
Now for the issue of characterization, yes, you could definitely tell that things were starting to change, season 3 is when they started choosing men over their sisterly bond.
I am a firm believer that Prue was the glue of the show, she guided Phoebe and Piper and bought out the best in them, with her gone...it was only a matter of time before they lost their way. Paige I don't have many problems with, she never knew Prue and grew up an only child, thank God she regained her wits for season 8, it showed that she hasn't let Phoebe and Piper drag her down to their depths.
Also a note on season 5, its much lighter than past seasons, but I still thoroughly enjoyed it, thinking back there are a ton of general "fluff" episodes that whilst don't add much in the way of depth, they are still darn entertaining. But Charmed had definitely lost that edge by this point.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2015 21:58:35 GMT -5
Shannen quitting just as Kern is announced as the head honcho for the show I can't help but feel that she was borrowing Phoebe's powers and could see a rotten future for the show and opted out while it was still considered good. Shannen didn't quit. She was fired. However, you could still say that she probably got out at the right time, even if it wasn't by choice. For me season 4 was terrific, I enjoyed the intro for Paige and getting to know her, some stuff felt rushed but overall I think it was good. Now for the issue of characterization, yes, you could definitely tell that things were starting to change, season 3 is when they started choosing men over their sisterly bond. Yeah, Season 4 still wasn't a bad season, and Paige was a great addition to the show. Really, the worst parts of Season 4, the Phoebe/Cole stuff, were the parts that were already in planning before Shannen was fired. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2015 0:45:04 GMT -5
I liked Season Four too. I didn't turn against the show until the debacle of Season Five happened.
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Post by Melinda Halliwell on Aug 15, 2015 3:13:58 GMT -5
Me neither Tim though I still watched the show.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2015 7:26:21 GMT -5
Me too. I guess it was like seeing a car wreck. You just have to slow down to get a better look.
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Post by Melinda Halliwell on Aug 15, 2015 10:20:52 GMT -5
I think the big difference between Phoebe/Cole and Prue/Andy and Piper/Leo/Dan is that the latter two were mostly just side stories to the larger story of the Charmed Ones and the Power of Three. They never took precedence over the sisters saving innocents or the Monster of the Week. Phoebe/Cole, on the other hand, got entire, major storylines devoted to them and frequently overshadowed the other sisters. The Demon Brotherhood stuff was 100% Cole with only Phoebe tangentially involved. There's no question that the Charmed Ones played second fiddle to him in those last few episodes of Season 3 (sans the finale). And, then, there's Season 4, which was SUPPOSED to be about introducing Paige and reconstituting the Power of Three, but quickly turned into another Phoebe/Cole-fest. ("A Paige from the Past" and "Saving Private Leo" being some of the worst examples, where Phoebe/Cole and their B Plot got more screentime than the characters these episodes were named after.) That was, perhaps, the biggest change Kern made to the show, this constant need to shove the sisters into the background and give the main spotlight to their love interests/costars, whether it be Cole in Seasons 3-4, Chris in Season 6, Leo in Season 7, or Billie in Season 8. Yeah I didn't like the Phoebe/Cole Source storyline latter part of season 4 either more than the introducing Paige part which I would've liked to have seen more of and had the sisters men be side parts to the show rather than the main plots being saving innocents like it was seasons 1&2. I mean you didn't need to see these guys 24/7 right just snippets here and there of them on dates or working wherever they did would've been okay rather than losing focus on what Charmed was really about then. |
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