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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2016 0:27:35 GMT -5
I wonder if Alyssa becoming a Producer had anything to do with her face heel turn towards Cole in S5. At the end of S4, she did not show any of the hatred that she had at the start of S5.
What changed? Alyssa became a Producer, and her character became a selfish, vindictive hag. Draw your own conclusions.
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Post by sol on Jan 15, 2016 3:23:11 GMT -5
After all the harm Cole had caused, do you wonder why Phoebe'ld have some problems with him?
I'ldn't like to see even his effigy!
Tim, I think you are one of the most good man in the world!
It's a pity that I set that I'll not get married till I'll be over 35 years,otherwise, I'ld ask you to marry me right away
Madrid is a wonderful place, excellent climate, beautiful architecture,rich nightlife, good welfare.. think about it!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2016 12:32:12 GMT -5
Aside from seriously creeping me out (I'm old enough to be your father, Sol), how does this comment have any relevance to this discussion?
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Post by sol on Jan 17, 2016 15:41:09 GMT -5
You judge Phoebe as a vengeful woman because after all the betrayals suffered, she is definitively done with Cole and cannot stand his attempts to re-establish the relationship, and it's never easy to say no to those you loved, it's normal to react harshly to protect yourself
If you cannot understad it, this means that you are a person capable of forgiving an enormous number of times, a rare gift.
I only occasionally give a second chance to those who let me down, but I very much appreciate the helpfulness in the others and when I'll choose to get married it'll be with a man more good than me,so he'll be able to stick me out|
Come on, Tim, I just wanted to make you smile
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2016 17:41:09 GMT -5
Take a look at Phoebe at the end of Witch Way Now. While she's wary of Cole, she does seem willing to give him a chance (had he not gotten out of the Wasteland when he did, she would have been killed by Jackman's bullet). He saved her life.
However, when S5 starts, she spits in Cole's face right at the start. I want to know what happened between the end of S4 and the start of S5 that caused this.
In the real world, the only thing that happened was that Alyssa became a Producer and Phoebe became her avatar. Seems no one was willing to rein her in and she turned Phoebe into a the selfish creature she became in the later seasons.
And Phoebe is no saint herself. Just ask her old high school boyfriend, Rick. You know, the guy she and Paige set up to be murdered. The facts that Demons did the killing makes no difference. If you set up someone to be murdered, you're just as guilty, even if you yourself didn't pull the trigger.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2016 19:43:07 GMT -5
The last time the "Real Phoebe" saw Cole was at the end of 'The Importance of Being Phoebe' after she stopped him from absorbing the power of the Nexus. In 'Centennial Charmed', Cole is vanquished by "Alternate Phoebe" because the writers kind of meshed together the concepts of altered reality and alternate timelines unfortunately. After Cole had died, Paige should've sneeze-orbed back to P3 as the world returned to normal, with Piper by her side. Piper could've said, 'Did that really happen?' and then Phoebe could've opened the door and said, 'Is he really gone?'. All the sisters would "know" that Cole tried to alter their reality/timeline - not create an alternate one which was independent from the "real world" - and it would've been a much more significant exit for Cole.
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Post by Sadrick on Jan 18, 2016 2:02:51 GMT -5
The only instance in which I would liken Cole's actions to a betrayal is when he became the Source, and that's applying Esmeralda's logic of him choosing to claim the position for himself. Cole made at least two attempts to leave yet one of the sisters always dragged him back into their world somehow. Phoebe also betrayed just as many times if not moreso when she abandoned him for reasons that were more complicated than she was realising in Season 3 and when she effectively condemned him to be killed by vanquishing the wizard as he was in the process of extracting the Source's powers from Cole.
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Post by sol on Jan 18, 2016 5:16:18 GMT -5
Take a look at Phoebe at the end of Witch Way Now. While she's wary of Cole, she does seem willing to give him a chance (had he not gotten out of the Wasteland when he did, she would have been killed by Jackman's bullet). He saved her life. However, when S5 starts, she spits in Cole's face right at the start. I want to know what happened between the end of S4 and the start of S5 that caused this. In the real world, the only thing that happened was that Alyssa became a Producer and Phoebe became her avatar. Seems no one was willing to rein her in and she turned Phoebe into a the selfish creature she became in the later seasons. And Phoebe is no saint herself. Just ask her old high school boyfriend, Rick. You know, the guy she and Paige set up to be murdered. The facts that Demons did the killing makes no difference. If you set up someone to be murdered, you're just as guilty, even if you yourself didn't pull the trigger. Not digress further, Rick's story concerns a different contexts Season 5 begins with A Witch's Tail, double episode which I appreciate At the end of the first episode Phoebe becomes a mermaid, I'ld say an happy mermaid Paige: Mylie said that mermaids are cold hearted, maybe that's why my spell turned Phoebe into a mermaid in the first place. Piper: Wait a minute, we're talking about Phoebe here. Since when did Phoebe become cold-hearted? Paige: Well, maybe she's been in the deep freeze ever since Cole came back. [ Incidentally: I know that now it'll come the usual comment that Bad Kern, having never seen a bra in his life, wanted at all costs Phoebe as mermaid to show the stars twinkling on her breast Let's take a minute of silence to deprecate Ok, let's go ahead] It 'a cute episode: Piper is back to the full of uncertainties Piper of the past, scared by the fear that her daughter'ld grow up without her mother as she did Paige takes on a role of decision maker, almost from Prue, while only goes from raging hormones and broken hearts Phoebe gives interviews on the protection of fish, funny But the final is important Phoebe: I do love you, and I always will but it doesn't change anything, it doesn't matter. It's over between us. Wise decision if Cole had at this point found his way through the human world, having relationships of mild friendship with the Halliwell, everything'ld be different Then there was the Siren's problem: Phoebe: Hey, look who's back to using doors. Cole: Yeah, I'm trying to, uh, limit my use of powers. Phoebe: Probably a wise decision. Cole: So, uh, did you get my flowers? Phoebe: Yep. Sorry I tried to strangle you? Probably not a card that the florist gets to write every day, huh? Cole: I didn't... Phoebe: I know. I know you're sorry, I know you were under the Siren's spell. Cole: You do know her magic feeds on love. Phoebe: Cole... Cole: She couldn't have lured us if we didn't love each other. Phoebe: Right. So once again our love was nearly fatal. Cole: I never would've hurt you if I wasn't under her spell. Phoebe: Most men don't try to kill their wives when they're under the Siren's spell. Most men just kiss and die. But because you're a demon... Cole: I'm not... Phoebe: Okay, well, because you have demonic powers and a lot of them, you became a bigger threat than the Siren. And that's only one way out of a thousand that your powers can turn against me.
Cole: I guess I didn't want you to be right.
Phoebe: Neither did I.
Then in Witches In Tights, although Phoebe doesn't want to see him, although she isn't a journalist, Phoebe pleases Cole and tries to interview Edward Miller, this means that despite he attempted to choke her,she is trying to maintain a decent relationship with him Cole'ld stop Miller using some slimy trick lawyer instead of vanquish him and this is the last disappointment that it'll lead to a final rupture of relations Then there will be the attempt to eliminate Piage and other amenities like this, the excuse this time is that he is out of his mind, there are always very valid excuses reason why Cole can do everything with the fans who sympathize with him Any Charmed Ones -unless Prue's - mistake is checked under a microscope, Cole no, he can do what he wants, perhaps because it's a male? Mah! |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2016 13:17:04 GMT -5
Cole was under a spell when he attacked Phoebe, thanks to the Siren. Of course, the Charmed Ones themselves have also done evil things while under a spell. Such as freezing and then smashing poor Leo to pieces.
As for Edward Miller, maybe Cole did go too far in killing him. However, Miller had made it clear he intended to expose the sisters as witches to the world. Remember what happened the last time they were exposed, it cost Prue her life.
And let's remember that the ONLY reason Miller started taking a closer look at the sisters is because Phoebe got in his face. She's an advice columnist, yet in this episode, she suddenly thinks she's Lois Lane. She had NO business confronting Miller like that.
In Season Five, the sisters decided that they would decide who was innocent or not. They had become selfish, hateful creatures. I knew of a few fans who stopped watching the show in S5 because they could no longer stand what the sisters became in S5.
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Post by Melinda Halliwell on Jan 18, 2016 13:47:23 GMT -5
I still watched season 5 but yes hated how the sisters appeared in general.
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Post by sol on Jan 19, 2016 12:09:32 GMT -5
Cole was under a spell when he attacked Phoebe, thanks to the Siren. Of course, the Charmed Ones themselves have also done evil things while under a spell. Such as freezing and then smashing poor Leo to pieces. As for Edward Miller, maybe Cole did go too far in killing him. However, Miller had made it clear he intended to expose the sisters as witches to the world. Remember what happened the last time they were exposed, it cost Prue her life. And let's remember that the ONLY reason Miller started taking a closer look at the sisters is because Phoebe got in his face. She's an advice columnist, yet in this episode, she suddenly thinks she's Lois Lane. She had NO business confronting Miller like that. In Season Five, the sisters decided that they would decide who was innocent or not. They had become selfish, hateful c reatures. I knew of a few fans who stopped watching the show in S5 because they could no longer stand what the sisters became in S5. For real? And who or what they hated with such passion? The minority? The scientist? The government? The elderly? The kids? The cats? The whole world? Or poor poor Cole? Once he is possessed by the Source, after 100 years as demon he still had no idea how the Source’s powers worked, poor poor Cole, so unprepared ! He, a demon so powerful and feared, is mocked by the Seer, one who is ever able to see the future well enough to understand she can’t have the power to take the Phoebe’s baby Very bad bad Seer, it’s not nice to cheat a vulnerable Cole ! And then there's the bad siren and the poor poor Cole falls under her spell but he is so nice, for trying to strangle Phoebe, he apologized with flowers, a very gentleman ! The dialogue that I quoted is clear, Phoebe is right and Cole also says that she is right, that his powers can be dangerous and uncontrollable If he says so, it’ld be better to believe him And after thinking about this, Cole joins the Avatar, just to have more powers, and for what? To live in a world without Paige, who he had already tried to kill without being under a spell, but certainly it was not his fault, Paige’s fault or, better, Phoebe's fault I thought of Cole, along with Zankou, as one of the demons more powerful, smarter and more interesting of Charmed, obviously I was wrong, he is as fragile as a glass tube, at the mercy of the hateful sisters Cole is one of my favorite characters, the powerful demon that fails when he let prevail his human side, a strong character with a strong story, not fit for who loves chick lit Cole portrayed as a poor man dragged by events, befuddled for love, never responsible for what he did, is a character I can’t stand It’s not Cole |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2016 12:35:15 GMT -5
You know, Sol, you're REALLY starting to get on my nerves. Are you so blinded by your Phoebe love that you can't see what a horrible creature she became in the later seasons.
And no, it was not just Cole. Later seasons Phoebe cared more about finding her baby daddy and having sex then she did about saving Innocents. Furthermore, she is one the biggest hypocrites on the planet. She went all Holier Than Thou on Cole for killing those two oxygen wasters in that bar, yet she herself set up her old high school friend to be murdered and that's okay? It's okay for the Halliwell sisters to commit murder, but don't let a Warlock or Demon dare. WTF? Who the hell died and made them the Grand Poobahs of all creation?
And look at the sisters in S8, they would rather party and go shopping than attend to their duties as the Charmed Ones. When Billie tried to remind them of that, it was always "Shut up, Billie."
In short, the later seasons sisters, Phoebe worst of all, cared only for their own creature comfort, Innocents be damned. Notice that the number of lost Innocents skyrocketed in the later seasons. Notice that, with a few exceptions, the sisters no longer gave a damn. "We lost another Innocent? Meh, who cares? When's dinner, I'm hungry."
Now, I am not saying Cole was perfect, he wasn't he had his flaws. But if you honesty think that the Charmed Ones of the later seasons were all saints, you better take another look, Sol.
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Post by lilchi7212 on Jan 19, 2016 12:50:02 GMT -5
I wonder if Alyssa becoming a Producer had anything to do with her face heel turn towards Cole in S5. At the end of S4, she did not show any of the hatred that she had at the start of S5. What changed? Alyssa became a Producer, and her character became a selfish, vindictive hag. Draw your own conclusions. That, plus Julian wanted out |
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Post by sol on Jan 19, 2016 13:07:52 GMT -5
You know, Sol, you're REALLY starting to get on my nerves. Are you so blinded by your Phoebe love that you can't see what a horrible creature she became in the later seasons. And no, it was not just Cole. Later seasons Phoebe cared more about finding her baby daddy and having sex then she did about saving Innocents. Furthermore, she is one the biggest hypocrites on the planet. She went all Holier Than Thou on Cole for killing those two oxygen wasters in that bar, yet she herself set up her old high school friend to be murdered and that's okay? It's okay for the Halliwell sisters to commit murder, but don't let a Warlock or Demon dare. WTF? Who the hell died and made them the Grand Poobahs of all creation? And look at the sisters in S8, they would rather party and go shopping than attend to their duties as the Charmed Ones. When Billie tried to remind them of that, it was always "Shut up, Billie." In short, the later seasons sisters, Phoebe worst of all, cared only for their own creature comfort, Innocents be damned. Notice that the number of lost Innocents skyrocketed in the later seasons. Notice that, with a few exceptions, the sisters no longer gave a damn. "We lost another Innocent? Meh, who cares? When's dinner, I'm hungry." Now, I am not saying Cole was perfect, he wasn't he had his flaws. But if you honesty think that the Charmed Ones of the later seasons were all saints, you better take another look, Sol. It's unbelieavable I'm talking about Cole, a character that I love and I don't like to see depicted like a poor unwary and you get back on track with your hatred for Halliwell Why did you watch Charmed? When I don't like -I don't waste time hating a tv program - a show I don't watch it I wasn't talking of Phoebe, but of Centennial Charmed that I like - could I or it's forbidden?- and others like and wish to talk of it without the same sentences, recycled post after post Now even Ms. Milano is bad? But she became a bad woman because of Phoebe or is she who made bad Phoebe ? It's possible talk of the episode or it's mandatory carry on with this ossession for the sisters' |
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Post by Melinda Halliwell on Jan 19, 2016 14:18:49 GMT -5
The reason why Cole and the sisters appeared bad looking later on is because of the why they were written which you notice differently seasons 1-3 and then 4-8.
Yes Alyssa and Holly were producers season 5 onward but they never had much control over their characters for e.g. how they appeared, what they done and what they wore etc which always baffled me why they accepted those posts originally.
And then the bigwigs I.E. Brad Kern for instance controlled whatever happened script wise so when Julian and they got them they could only perform what was on there unfortunately whereas if you had people who lived and breathed Charmed and knew the characters inside out then these type of conversations wouldn't be said amongst fans years later then.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2016 0:45:32 GMT -5
Talk about Centennial Charmed until your face is blue, Sol. I'm done with you.
Yes, but I find it odd that, when they become Producers, is the season in which many think that their characters really started to deteriorate.
Perhaps it was just a coincidence, but it IS odd, right. Perhaps it was not so much creative control is much as it was Kern was no longer willing to rein them in.
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Post by erikamarie on Jan 20, 2016 5:42:06 GMT -5
That's kind of harsh for a "Charmed" fan to say. I liked the episode, I just wished that Phoebe would've remembered that momentous moment and that it wasn't in an alternate reality. I hated that episode they could've done a better job. Phoebe's not gonna remember it since Cole thanks to the Avatar powers he gained altered reality. Although if you go on to Season 8 she sees for herself Cole's vanquish in that reality when Coop took her back to see some of her past loves The unbearable Cupids's ring'ld also be able to travel along different timelines, as in FC I hate that ring, it would be nice if someone settled to write a spell to cancel the powers of all those rings" I quite like the episode,even if there are some flaws I understand that Paige, not being entirely present, is dragged into Cole's reality, without suffering from the effects, less easy it's to understand why Cole's vanquish'ld bring Paige home If that was an alternate reality, it'ld have existed even without Cole If that was a world created around Cole, as Gith's world of desires,it was right itdisappeared with him but then, why Phoebe was not the Phoebe of his dreams? |
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Post by turner on Jan 21, 2016 6:26:55 GMT -5
I love centennial charmed finally it comes to topics that'ld involve who is young and saw only recently Charmed
I don't understand how Paige was able to come back too, did you?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2016 7:22:19 GMT -5
I love centennial charmed finally it comes to topics that'ld involve who is young and saw only recently Charmed I don't understand how Paige was able to come back too, did you? I guess it was just a case of "vanquish Cole and his reality is undone". The rules regarding Cole's avatar powers and that reality didn't really make sense to be honest... but I'm assuming that was it. |
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Post by Chrisaholic on Jan 21, 2016 10:18:03 GMT -5
And with Cole/Belthazor as well? I guess, someone did not do his research, regarding Avatars and alternate realities. Really, I don't understand it either and I only get a headache by just thinking about that stuff but sometimes, I have to wonder about the show and its way of creating worlds, especially parallel ones.
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