juls
Innocent
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Post by juls on Jan 21, 2016 12:49:56 GMT -5
Whoa now. I absolutely do not think that Phoebe turned into a vengeful hag as tim66 said. I think she only got stronger. Let's face it. Cole/Balthazor/Source, whatever you want to call him - was doomed from the start. You can't be forgiven for killing innocents. Period. He was a demon who did horrible things. Now, I can understand separating from Balthazor and The Source and being completely human being a way to redeem the character since they are separate beings, but in the last half of season 4, it really turns into an unforgivable stage. All the manipulating, controlling, evil things he was doing. He corrupted Phoebe and tried to destroy every part of her that was good. I can appreciate how lost Phoebe got in all that, that it warped her judgments, so I'll forgive her weakness to go to the evil side and be needy towards him at the end of season 4, but I was actually super proud of her in season 5 for standing up for what's right and ending things with Cole completely. It was basically an abusive relationship and she was a survivor from it. I only wish that she hadn't vanquished him in an alternate reality. I wish it was in a time where she would remember it. Good thing she views it first-hand in the future with Coop, so at least she can say she conquered that.
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Post by lilchi7212 on Jan 21, 2016 15:19:40 GMT -5
Whoa now. I absolutely do not think that Phoebe turned into a vengeful hag as tim66 said. I think she only got stronger. Let's face it. Cole/Balthazor/Source, whatever you want to call him - was doomed from the start. You can't be forgiven for killing innocents. Period. He was a demon who did horrible things. Now, I can understand separating from Balthazor and The Source and being completely human being a way to redeem the character since they are separate beings, but in the last half of season 4, it really turns into an unforgivable stage. All the manipulating, controlling, evil things he was doing. He corrupted Phoebe and tried to destroy every part of her that was good. I can appreciate how lost Phoebe got in all that, that it warped her judgments, so I'll forgive her weakness to go to the evil side and be needy towards him at the end of season 4, but I was actually super proud of her in season 5 for standing up for what's right and ending things with Cole completely. It was basically an abusive relationship and she was a survivor from it. I only wish that she hadn't vanquished him in an alternate reality. I wish it was in a time where she would remember it. Good thing she views it first-hand in the future with Coop, so at least she can say she conquered that. Disagree it was not doomed from the start. Phoebe never bothered to try to save the marriage after what had happened I mean if she truly loved him then at least put in the effort to try to salvage the marriage instead of just giving up and divorcing him. All the stuff that happened in the second half of 4 was the Source not Cole. |
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Post by sol on Jan 21, 2016 17:50:53 GMT -5
You can truly love a man but you cannot devote your life to save a marriage
She even agreed to stay at his side while he was the Source to protect their family, but once the child was dead there was no longer any family to save
Source or Cole doesn't matter, there is a boundary to how much you can accept for love or become a doormat in the name of the marriage
I'ld never trust him again
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Post by Melinda Halliwell on Jan 21, 2016 18:15:13 GMT -5
Here's something I wrote in a previous post on another thread to do with Cole and Phoebe. To have a truly lasting relationship both people have to accept one another all the time 100% including the good points and bad ones otherwise it won't work will it which's what happened with Cole and Phoebe when she accepted him season 3 and then not season 4 end. Now had things gone differently wherein the PO3 knew about Cole's possession sooner and the Seers real plain concerning the baby and had accepted it wasn't his fault that happened tried to exorcise the Source outta Cole whether they succeeded or not and then Cole and Phoebe tried to work out their marriage/relationship whether they seperated for a bit and went and rediscovered one another or did something like marriage counselling and worked through their issues I don't know it could've worked maybe but then there's only so many times Cole could keep being good and evil etc before it got too boring and pointless him being there and people grew tired of it. Don't get me wrong I loved their relationship from season 3 till Cole was possessed but the way the whole thing was handled aftewards especially the first half of season 5 concerning him he should've stayed dead season 4 end which would've been more justified character wise. Had the writers gone another way and stretched out what happened between Cole and Phoebe like the charmed ones never vanquished Shax till after 'A Paige From The Past' because of the sisterly bond thing they didn't have previously and then didn't vanquish the Source episode 13 but at the seasons end with Cole becoming possessed then which they explored first half of season 5 having all the sisters know about Cole earlier whom they try to exorcise the Source from whether they succed or not then if they do Cole and Phoebe either seperate for a time and try and find themselves out rediscovering who they were with Cole helping people out through his lawyer work doing pro bono maybe if he was still human and Phoebe helping out her advice column readers and innocents also and then both got back together after say the Crone who was the big bad of that year did something then or if either had fought someone else prompting the other whomever to try and win the latter back fairly which they suceeded doing then I would've accepted them both more fully. Or had they done something like marriage counselling as I said and worked through theirs issues totally and knew what the trigger points were so what happened never occured again then I wouldn't have minded that either even if some people wouldn't have liked it here probably. Then Centennial Charmed wouldn't have happened the way it did obviously. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2016 18:27:26 GMT -5
Sigh, another "St. Phoebe" comment.
Need I say again that Phoebe helped murder a man in cold blood at the end of Hyde School Reunion. Why is it evil if Cole murders someone, but Phoebe gets off scott free?
As for post-Cole Phoebe being a stronger character.. If putting your duties to protect Innocents second to finding a sperm donor to knock you up, I would hate to see what a weaker character would look like.
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Post by Sadrick on Jan 21, 2016 21:39:24 GMT -5
Why is it that whenever Cole's past crimes get brought up that opponents bring up this absolutist adjudication logic to condemn him? Cole can't change the past one hundred years of carnage and iniquity that he committed. We acknowledge that. But to decry him when he's making an earnest effort to change his ways -- with an admittedly selfish goal helping to inspire him -- not only reflects poorly on the moral judgement of the sisters who are throwing him under the bus, it also makes the hypocrisy of their own actions stand out even more. They choose not to prescribe their moral high road standards on themselves or others whom they have a long standing favourable opinion of like Leo, whom if we dictated their moral authority onto him would become distrusted and ostracised as well for attacking Sheridan and murdering an Elder; yet what does Piper do? She comforts Leo while gently assuring him without any hesitation that no one will know about what he did. Yeah, I'm sure Zola appreciates having his death brushed under the carpet and his killer allowed to continue on with his life without any justice sought out.
The idea of what qualifies as an innocent seems to alternate just as much as other informational bits in this show. In "Sam I Am", for instance, Phoebe confronts Cole and pretty much tears into him with more emotional fervency than one might expect someone to have over two criminals who attacked a bar and was shooting wildly at civilians; yet as Tim mentioned, she in turn has no qualms with setting up Rick Gittridge to be viciously killed by having acid melt him down to nothing when it would have been easier just to telekinetically disarm and incapacitate him. If there was any consistency to her logic then why didn't she call out Prue for killing Whitaker Berman and Ms Hellfire? Or Piper when it was because of her own impatience and unwillingness to hear Williamson out as he was becoming increasingly unstable that he eventually ended up being killed? I'll tell you why -- because she didn't have a personal vendetta against them, they were her precious sisters. The taking of a human life is only sin in Phoebe's eyes when it coincides with her having the high ground.
In my eyes, I think of Phoebe as being a short sighted hypocrite who couldn't be bothered to take the time to pursue any of the circumstantial information that would help fill in the gaps between Cole's situation and actions. She would sooner choose to believe her own rash conclusions because of personal animosity felt towards Cole.
This is another reason why I have a personal preference for Supernatural because it tries to be introspective with its characters and the underlying factors that set certain events in motion to begin with. You don't have this two-dimensional assignment of guilt/condemnation or characters pretending like they're some beacon of moral integrity who can do no wrong. Just this last episode, it was revealed at the end that Castiel had done the unthinkable in allowing Lucifer to take control of his vessel, thus freeing him from bondage after so many years. Lucifer -- the great Biblical threat who aspired to go through with the Apocalypse and destruction of humanity which Sam and Dean had sacrificed so much to prevent. However, the moral dilemma faced with this scenario that will likely arise in the future is that Castiel was acting under the belief that there was no other option to stop the greater threat, Amara/The Darkness. He had personally come face to face with her, was helpless to do anything and realised that there were no other options left. What he did could be described as the act of a desperate being who was turning to the only recourse left which is Lucifer. Will there be consequences to this decision? No doubt -- there could very likely be mass murder as a result of Castiel's decision which may lead to a return of the Apocalypse with the world in jeopardy, but what he did when going into that confrontation was carried out under the belief that The Darkness poses a far greater risk to the universe. In some ways his situation mirrors Cole's when his body became occupied by the Source. His agreement to allow the Hollow to enter his body was decided out of a desperate bid to save Phoebe, unfortunately it had unforeseeable long lasting consequences which he couldn't account for but chanced upon anyway. The difference between these two situations is that Castiel's actions won't be written off as the product of some selfish run for glory or corruption like Cole's when the sisters left him to rot. It's a complex issue that requires more than a simple black and white look over to decide upon.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2016 1:09:20 GMT -5
Well said, Sadrick.
Seems to me that the later seasons sisters began to see themselves as above the rules that the rest of us lowly mortals must follow. Of course, none of them getting called out on their actions didn't help. Phoebe and Paige had non-lethal means to deal with Rick, killing him was simply not necessary. Yet they did so, and neither of them saw the inside of a jail cell. Phoebe clearly forgot the lesson she learned in Mortality Bites, protect the Innocent, NOT punish the guilty.
At this point, the sisters set themselves up as judges and they would decide who was Innocent and who wasn't. I'm sorry, but that was never their mandate. By setting themselves up as judge, jury, and executioner, in many ways, they became as bad as the demons they were supposed to fight.
Cole was guilty for one reason, Phoebe decided he was guilty. Circumstances be damned.
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Post by erikamarie on Jan 22, 2016 2:26:01 GMT -5
That is juls’s opinion and like all opinions they are worthy of respect and peaceful source of debate, given that this is a forum, not the central committee of a party
I can understand that the romantics dreamed a happy ending for Cole and Phoebe but writers have chosen the path of realism and also of social reality because it’s no less than 30 years tha tthe myth of love at all costs, “I bear everything for love, I throw myself into the fire to save a marriage”, crumble
Starting from my experience(not from Supernatural that I follow indifferently because I love the brothers and Castiel aand Crowley but the plots are increasingly ridiculous) as far as I love my husband I doubt I could bear anything from him just to to save our marriage
While I'm sure I'd do anything to save our twins: biology against reason
I think it’s pointless to keep track about"who is more bad", it doesn’t make sense
Phoebe has always known of Cole’s past, she accepted it (Paige not, unlike Piper): when she refuses to kill him in Sleuthing With the Enemy she chooses to accept even Belthazor
But after the unwanted pregnancy, the traumatic death of their baby, the adventure on the side of evil, Phoebe is tired, she wants to recover a peaceful life, without Cole and she has the right, like all women who get fed up and say enough, even to men who are still loving
I agree with Sol that compared to the end of their relationship, mean nothing that Cole was or not possessed, or make a list of who is moreunderstandable and good: Phoebe is sick and tired, their love had a price too high that she no longer wants to pay
Piper however isn’t and will be not fed up with her Leo:in love relationship it's better don't think as a nitpicker
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Post by sol on Jan 22, 2016 5:22:35 GMT -5
I love centennial charmed finally it comes to topics that'ld involve who is young and saw only recently Charmed I don't understand how Paige was able to come back too, did you? I guess it was just a case of "vanquish Cole and his reality is undone". The rules regarding Cole's avatar powers and that reality didn't really make sense to be honest... but I'm assuming that was it. The world created for Cole is not related to the Avatars community, so it's hard to catch how it works More than an alternative reality it seems a world of desires where the only desire expressed by Cole is Paige disappearance He believes it was guaranteed that Phoebe always loved him, in any situation, so he let that this new reality had Paige in the center of his desire, instead of Phoebe The world dissolves with Cole'death |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2016 10:11:59 GMT -5
I don't buy that to be honest. It was The Avatars' magic that made it so. I don't believe they had any of the "collective" stuff that was brought into season 7, but even so, Cole's spell was performed using Avatar power and Avatar's were immune to its effects. Which is why it made no sense that Cole would go back to being Belthazor, since he should've been immune as an avatar as well; even more so since it was his spell and he remained aware of everything.
But they'd written themselves into a corner by making him invincible and needed to worm their way out of it.
I do think that's the long and short of it. But only because, in Charmed-verse, magic is often undone when the caster dies... I don't think there's anything more complex than that to it.
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juls
Innocent
Posts: 42
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Post by juls on Jan 22, 2016 11:24:27 GMT -5
I don't care if Cole is making efforts to be better. Would a murderer be given that same courtesy?
I am having a hard time remembering the "Hyde School Reunion" episode - Phoebe killed an innocent?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2016 12:36:51 GMT -5
What happened is that she and Paige set up her old high school friend, Rick, to be murdered. She and Paige cast a spell that turned Rick into a double of Chris, knowing full well that Demons were after Chris at the time. Said Demons arrived soon after and killed Rick.
Okay, it was Demons that did the actual killing, but Phoebe and Paige made it happen, and are just as guilty. If you set someone up to be murdered, like hiring a hit man to kill them, you're just as guilty, even if you didn't pull the trigger.
Yes, Rick was a criminal, yes he had killed people (or so he claimed), however that does not justify killing him. Paige could have used her powers to orb the gun out of his hands, disarming him. Phoebe then could have used her martial arts to knock him out. Then it's just a matter of calling Daryl to come and get him.
So it's evil for Cole to kill those two oxygen wasters in Sam I Am (who were in the process of gunning people down), but it's okay for Phoebe to kill Rick? Sorry, not buying it. If Cole is a murderer, Phoebe is also.
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juls
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Post by juls on Jan 22, 2016 12:38:35 GMT -5
He killed more than 2 people...he was a demon for over a 100 years. I'm sure he killed plenty of innocents that didn't deserve it INCLUDING an innocent witch in season 3.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Jan 22, 2016 15:12:07 GMT -5
He killed more than 2 people...he was a demon for over a 100 years. I'm sure he killed plenty of innocents that didn't deserve it INCLUDING an innocent witch in season 3. It only takes one victim to make a person a murderer. With Rick Gittridge, both Phoebe and Paige became unrepentant murderers. They became murderers . . . like Cole. Actually, all three sisters became murderers when they killed Cole, while he was possessed by the Source. Instead of trying to find out how he became the Source, they jumped to conclusions, exercised extreme prejudice and killed him. In fact, "Centennial Charmed" began with Paige trying to kill Cole on her own, despite the fact that he had decided to put all three sisters behind him. Intent doesn't really mean anything, when you don't consider the details of your actions or the consequences. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2016 18:09:36 GMT -5
And they got away with it. As I said, even though Demons did the actual killing, Phoebe and Paige made it happen. They're just as guilty.
And let's not forget that Rick was not a Warlock or a Demon, he was human. The sisters have gone up against humans, who had no magical powers, and managed to defeat them without killing them (Abbie the bartender, the two oxygen wasters in Secrets And Guys, for example). What made this case any different. Of course, the events concerning Abbie and the aforementioned oxygen wasters happened before the sisters set themselves up as judge, jury, and executioner (which happened at the start of Season Five).
Phoebe was willing to own up for killing Cal Green in that alternate future and pay the price. However, Phoebe was quite willing to brush what she and Paige did to Rick under the rug because she said there was no other way. Rubbish! As I said, Phoebe and Paige could easily had defeated Rick without killing him, they just didn't bother to.
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Post by sol on Jan 24, 2016 17:19:20 GMT -5
Phoebe, still upset after being under a spell, and Paige that attempts to remedy Phoebe's screw-ups, under the threat of a gun haven't any more suitable idea than satisfy Rick who demands a new face and give him Chris's face
For this reason Rick is eliminated by the demons that hunt Chris
Bad idea but not always it's simple being smart and swift
That 100 years as mercenary killer'ld have the same value as a dramatic failure scares me, I hope none of you in real life colud be a judge or an AD
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Post by sol on Jan 24, 2016 17:23:58 GMT -5
I don't buy that to be honest. It was The Avatars' magic that made it so. I don't believe they had any of the "collective" stuff that was brought into season 7, but even so, Cole's spell was performed using Avatar power and Avatar's were immune to its effects. Which is why it made no sense that Cole would go back to being Belthazor, since he should've been immune as an avatar as well; even more so since it was his spell and he remained aware of everything. But they'd written themselves into a corner by making him invincible and needed to worm their way out of it. I do think that's the long and short of it. But only because, in Charmed-verse, magic is often undone when the caster dies... I don't think there's anything more complex than that to it. But it was a lot different from Utopia Cole was Belthazor again because he wished to go back in time, but in a time without Paige, it was as a world of desires moved back in time |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2016 10:50:39 GMT -5
You keep saying it was a "world of desire", but you realise there's nothing in the actual episode that says that. In fact I think it's pretty clear that that's not what the reality was, since Cole desired Phoebe and it turned out that she still hated him.
That's all Cole did. He made some very strange assumptions about that one very important event and changed it, causing a ripple effect. But it still makes no sense that it should have changed him-
Cole is an avatar; so there's no reason why what Alpha says in this scene wouldn't apply to him. If anything, it should apply to him more, since he cast the spell. But as I said, they needed a way to get rid of his invincibility; so totally contradict themselves in the same episode in order to do so.
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Post by sol on Jan 25, 2016 11:22:24 GMT -5
You keep saying it was a "world of desire", but you realise there's nothing in the actual episode that says that. In fact I think it's pretty clear that that's not what the reality was, since Cole desired Phoebe and it turned out that she still hated him. That's all Cole did. He made some very strange assumptions about that one very important event and changed it, causing a ripple effect. But it still makes no sense that it should have changed him- Cole is an avatar; so there's no reason why what Alpha says in this scene wouldn't apply to him. If anything, it should apply to him more, since he cast the spell. But as I said, they needed a way to get rid of his invincibility; so totally contradict themselves in the same episode in order to do so. It was an erikamarie matter, she recalled the worlds created by a demon of wished in My Three Witches and that, as the genius, he asserted that the wishes could be very dangerous: in fact in that reality Cole and Phoebe weren't in love, Cole was only interested in his prophesied son, Phoebe only in Piper's safety Centennial CharmedAvatar: For you to die. You're not invincible in this reality, Cole. By changing that one critical event, you've changed even more than you see before you. You've changed you. Cole: What are you talking about? I don't feel any different. Avatar: But you are different. You've assumed the identity of the Cole in this reality. The one who used to be known as Belthazor, the Source's right hand man. A powerful demon to be sure, but hardly indestructible. Cole: Belthazor, huh? I told you, that's when Phoebe and I were at our best. Cole goes back in time and creates an alternate reality where he is Belthazor and not an Avatar, he was an Avatar in the abandoned timeline The cascading events born from Paige's death, are events that cannot lead Cole to turn so powerful to arouse interest in the Avatars so he'll never run into them and never he'll become one of them By agreeing to identify with that reality, he gets out of his Avatar powers and fees the effects of time |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2016 11:48:04 GMT -5
If Cole's power and status as an avatar were completely nullified by this spell, then how did Alpha expect Cole to reverse the magic? Belthazor may have been powerful, but he certainly didn't have enough to manipulate reality.
And again, if that's the case, then it's completely ignoring what they just established; that Avatars exist outside of time and space.
Cole, as an avatar, exists outside of time and space. That means that changes in time and space have no impact on him and his powers. That's why Alpha isn't effected. Whatever reality Cole created, he was an Avatar when he did it, therefore his power was beyond time and space; going by what the writers establish.
So the consequences of changing past events should not change his species or his powers. If it does, then he is blatantly not outside of time and space; because changes in time and space have a massive effect on him. That's a contradiction.
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