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Post by sol on Jan 25, 2016 12:09:38 GMT -5
You are right and as always I risk an headache talking of this kind of things
And yet the dialogue between the Avatar and Cole is as if Cole was on the threshold of a room in which the Avatar warns him not to go in:maybe the Avatars are immune to space and time as long as they keep themselvees outside, but if they meddle,they become what they are in that reality
It'ld seem that the meaning of Avatar's warning
I hope I wasn't too confusing
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juls
Innocent
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Post by juls on Jan 25, 2016 12:22:01 GMT -5
He killed more than 2 people...he was a demon for over a 100 years. I'm sure he killed plenty of innocents that didn't deserve it INCLUDING an innocent witch in season 3. It only takes one victim to make a person a murderer. With Rick Gittridge, both Phoebe and Paige became unrepentant murderers. They became murderers . . . like Cole. Actually, all three sisters became murderers when they killed Cole, while he was possessed by the Source. Instead of trying to find out how he became the Source, they jumped to conclusions, exercised extreme prejudice and killed him. In fact, "Centennial Charmed" began with Paige trying to kill Cole on her own, despite the fact that he had decided to put all three sisters behind him. Intent doesn't really mean anything, when you don't consider the details of your actions or the consequences. The Charmed Ones kill KILLERS. That's the point. I don't think there was anything wrong with Phoebe and Paige setting Rick up for murder...it was actually in self-defense, really and he was a murderer. And killing Cole was acceptable as well since he was a murderer as well. |
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Post by Sadrick on Jan 25, 2016 13:46:15 GMT -5
It only takes one victim to make a person a murderer. With Rick Gittridge, both Phoebe and Paige became unrepentant murderers. They became murderers . . . like Cole. Actually, all three sisters became murderers when they killed Cole, while he was possessed by the Source. Instead of trying to find out how he became the Source, they jumped to conclusions, exercised extreme prejudice and killed him. In fact, "Centennial Charmed" began with Paige trying to kill Cole on her own, despite the fact that he had decided to put all three sisters behind him. Intent doesn't really mean anything, when you don't consider the details of your actions or the consequences. The Charmed Ones kill KILLERS. That's the point. I don't think there was anything wrong with Phoebe and Paige setting Rick up for murder...it was actually in self-defense, really and he was a murderer. And killing Cole was acceptable as well since he was a murderer as well. Excessive usage of force brought on by a lack of willingness to stick to their own self-prescribed tenets of not doing the wrong thing even if it's paved with good intentions. These same women are the type of people who would choose to casually flaunt their magic for self gratification and the punishment of others as a mark of their own hypocrisy. Tell me -- what is an appropriate form of punishment for Cole in your eyes besides outright having him killed? A self-reflective look at his own inner nature? A journey of atonement across the world for one hundred years as he's naked with blood splattered across his body as he continues to flagellate himself with a thorned whip and tears streaming from his eyes while he screams in agony and sorrow to the heavens for the atrocities his career as an assassin brought upon the world? |
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Post by erikamarie on Jan 25, 2016 15:35:08 GMT -5
I'ld remember that everyone is eligible for express their own opinions
Juls has a severe viewpoint of Cole and doesn't not tell lies remembering that as a mercenary killer Cole killed several innocent
The Charmes Ones didn't turn out to be ready to kill innocents
As the use of magic, the only rule should be "careful not to harm and to abuse of it", the magic is their gift and their prerogative, they are free to use it
Moreover, in no one episode I ever saw one of the sisters pretend to be a model of virtue or think that she never made mistakes
I don't mind, Cole is my favorite character after the sisters and Evil Wyatt, I like his human personality full of contradiction, for this reason I avoid to consider him a poor victim of Love or circumstances
If he really wanted to recover the happy days with Phoebe, without Paige and without Prue,he'ld have to go back to the time of his conversation with the Seer, tell her he needed time to think,go back to the sisters and discuss with them what to do
They'ld find a solution, together, Cole certainly knew how the powers of the Source worked and the risks he'ld take
But he didn't, he wanted to be a demon/man with powers like in the short period between Prue's death and Paige's coming, when he was Phoebe's love, support, teacher, brother in arms: magical days but even magic didn't have the the power to give them back to him
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2016 18:05:00 GMT -5
Cal Green was also a murderer, yet Phoebe was punished for taking the law into her own hands on that occasion. That was the whole point of that episode. the mandate of the Charmed Ones was to protect the Innocent, not punish the guilty.
Self defense? Rubbish! Paige could have orbed the smegging gun right out of Rick's hands! Once he was disarmed, they could have easily subdued him and called Daryl.
If Phoebe was punished for killing Cal Green (who was not even holding a gun at that point), then she (and Paige) should have been punished for killing Rick. Killing him was not necessary, they had other options.
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Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?"
Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,920
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Post by Esmeralda on Jan 25, 2016 19:21:49 GMT -5
The Charmed Ones kill KILLERS. That's the point. I don't think there was anything wrong with Phoebe and Paige setting Rick up for murder...it was actually in self-defense, really and he was a murderer. And killing Cole was acceptable as well since he was a murderer as well. You are totally forgetting what to me was the most powerful scene in all of Charmed (bolding and underlining mine): --Morality Bites Well, guess what? The Charmed Ones crossed that line again and again and again...soul-raping Darryl; setting up Rick to be murdered; planning the premeditated murder of the Jenkinses. Those are the worst, but there were others, when their motto became "Ends justify the means" rather than "The wrong thing done for the right reason is still the wrong thing." They got to the point where they thought they could judge who was good and who was evil and be judge, jury and executioner. It's why I couldn't stand them starting with "Vallhalley of the Dolls" and why that's my least-favorite episode. It's also one of many reasons why I don't think "Forever Charmed" is anything more than Piper's delusion as she's in a coma after "Kill Billie, Vol 2." NO WAY that's anything but the future she wants, not the future she'll get. Billie will do something to annoy her. Piper will finally have enough. She'll explode Billie and *she'll* be the one who ends up on the pyre...if Phoebe doesn't murder Cal Greene again first. No way I don't believe those two will just keep on being judge, jury and executioner and eventually what goes around will come around and bite at least one of them in the a$$. Truly not sure how much this does or doesn't have to do with Centennial Charmed - whether just because his demonic mother screwed his non-magical father means that this should put Cole in the same category as Cal Greene rather then the Source despite having been a mercenary demon for almost 100 years, but... I do agree that him deciding to live in a world where Paige was dead was the stupidest thing he did. I always thought he was a smart demon, but that was pure stupidity. The *only* way he could've live sappily ever after would be one where Phoebe never found out that he was anything but a lawyer - or one where he was able to kill Prue and Piper before Phoebe was born, so Phoebe never would've become Charmed. But if that happened, would he have ever met her? And that's the best thing that could've happened to him. If he never met Phoebe, but continued to be a mercenary demon killing people he would've been a hellova lot happier. |
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Nimue
Familiar
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Post by Nimue on Jan 26, 2016 2:10:51 GMT -5
Bless me father, for I have sinned.
Ok, so what I'm about to say is probably going to earn me a ton of backlash, I'm probably going to become incredibly unpopular after it, but let's remember that everyone is allowed to express their opinion. Voltaire once said: "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to death your right to say it." Let's try and keep that in mind, please.
I'm starting to chance my mind about Rick; on the one hand I don't think it was wrong for him to die, I don't care that he was "human" he was still a murderer, who had no desire for change. What I'm not sure about is the sisters doing it. I know their suppose to just protect the innocent and hunt down demons, but human beings are not special snowflakes who deserve passes: if they've done something awful, according to what they've done, they deserve to die for it (yes, I'm totally for the death penalty).
I don't agree about Cole, however. Cole wanted to change. He tried to, but in the end failed. That doesn't erase everything he did beforehand, but it shouldn't be held against him till the end of time, it's unfair considering how much he wanted to change. And I think the fact he changed sides so quickly shows how dissatisfied he was with his life as a demon, but that he couldn't stop it. He needed love as a motive, which is incredibly romantic in my opinion. He gave up everything, became a parriah out of love. Not once did he kill human beings after he fell in love with Phoebe.
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Post by sol on Jan 26, 2016 4:04:43 GMT -5
I didn't share your opinion - I'm against death penalty - but I like your post
About Rick, he deserved a long life in a jail but I cannot condemn Paige and Phoebe's decision, they were in danger and Rick knew of the existence of magic, a knowledge dangerous for all the comunity
I agree with you and erikamarie that Cole is a romantic characters but I don't think that he changed his mind for love
He canged his side for love:a mercenary changes side depending on who pays him, Belthazor was a demon mercenary, an independent
I mean, Drake never wanted to be a demon, Cole / Belthazor instead was proud of what he was and of his fame
Cole doesn't reject evil, he switch to Halliwell's side because of Phoebe, without any critical consciousness
This is the reason becasue Cole isn't able to adapt to the human world, he doesn't care of it, he was interested only in Phoebe
Thanks Nimue for freely expressing your thoughts, without differenti deas it doesn't make sense to debate
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2016 12:18:41 GMT -5
Again I must refer to Mortality Bites in which the mandate of the sisters is made clear: Protect the Innocent, not punish the guilty. By killing Cal Green, Phoebe had violated that mandate. At least when she realized what she had done, Phoebe was willing to own up to it, she told her sisters not to stop her execution for the crime. That was the lesson learned.
The same applied to Rick. Yes, he was a criminal and a murderer, but that is totally irrelevant here. It's up to the State of California to decide his fate, not the Halliwell sisters. Phoebe had no more right to kill him than she did Cal Green. However, unlike the case of Cal Green, Phoebe was not willing to own up for what she (and Paige) had done here. They just said that there had been no other way.
No other way. As I said, that's complete rubbish. Paige could have orbed the gun! There is no getting around that, I'm afraid. As P3Nathan pointed out in his review of this episode, Rick stood there blabbing for quite some time, Paige had more than enough time to use her powers to disarm him. So why didn't she? Had she accidentally orbed her brain into the next county?
Now, if I had written the scene, it would have gone like this:
Rick: Blah, blah, blah...
Paige: Holds out her hands. Gun!
The guns orbs out of Rick's hands and into Paige's.
Rick: What the??
Phoebe: Thanks, sis. A few martial arts moves and Rick is on the floor, out cold.
Paige: Right, you tie him up and I'll call Daryl.
See, it was easy as pie. Killing Rick was not necessary.
Instead the sisters violated their mandate. However, unlike the case of Cal Green, this time they got off scott free.
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Nimue
Familiar
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Post by Nimue on Jan 26, 2016 12:30:27 GMT -5
Again I must refer to Mortality Bites in which the mandate of the sisters is made clear: Protect the Innocent, not punish the guilty. By killing Cal Green, Phoebe had violated that mandate. At least when she realized what she had done, Phoebe was willing to own up to it, she told her sisters not to stop her execution for the crime. That was the lesson learned. The same applied to Rick. Yes, he was a criminal and a murderer, but that is totally irrelevant here. It's up to the State of California to decide his fate, not the Halliwell sisters. Phoebe had no more right to kill him than she did Cal Green. However, unlike the case of Cal Green, Phoebe was not willing to own up for what she (and Paige) had done here. They just said that there had been no other way. No other way. As I said, that's complete rubbish. Paige could have orbed the gun! There is no getting around that, I'm afraid. As P3Nathan pointed out in his review of this episode, Rick stood there blabbing for quite some time, Paige had more than enough time to use her powers to disarm him. So why didn't she? Had she accidentally orbed her brain into the next county? Now, if I had written the scene, it would have gone like this: Rick: Blah, blah, blah...
Paige: Holds out her hands. Gun!
The guns orbs out of Rick's hands and into Paige's.
Rick: What the??
Phoebe: Thanks, sis. A few martial arts moves and Rick is on the floor, out cold.
Paige: Right, you tie him up and I'll call Daryl. See, it was easy as pie. Killing Rick was not necessary. Instead the sisters violated their mandate. However, unlike the case of Cal Green, this time they got off scott free. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2016 12:57:54 GMT -5
That's okay, Jennifer.
Still, there is that elephant in the room, namely Paige not orbing the gun when she had plenty of time to do so. If the writers didn't want that to happen, then they should not have had Paige in the scene to begin with.
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Nimue
Familiar
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Post by Nimue on Jan 26, 2016 13:16:11 GMT -5
That's okay, Jennifer. Still, there is that elephant in the room, namely Paige not orbing the gun when she had plenty of time to do so. If the writers didn't want that to happen, then they should not have had Paige in the scene to begin with. |
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juls
Innocent
Posts: 42
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Post by juls on Jan 26, 2016 14:06:46 GMT -5
--Morality Bites Well, guess what? The Charmed Ones crossed that line again and again and again...soul-raping Darryl; setting up Rick to be murdered; planning the premeditated murder of the Jenkinses. Those are the worst, but there were others, when their motto became "Ends justify the means" rather than "The wrong thing done for the right reason is still the wrong thing." They got to the point where they thought they could judge who was good and who was evil and be judge, jury and executioner. It's why I couldn't stand them starting with "Vallhalley of the Dolls" and why that's my least-favorite episode. It's also one of many reasons why I don't think "Forever Charmed" is anything more than Piper's delusion as she's in a coma after "Kill Billie, Vol 2." NO WAY that's anything but the future she wants, not the future she'll get. Billie will do something to annoy her. Piper will finally have enough. She'll explode Billie and *she'll* be the one who ends up on the pyre...if Phoebe doesn't murder Cal Greene again first. No way I don't believe those two will just keep on being judge, jury and executioner and eventually what goes around will come around and bite at least one of them in the a$$. Truly not sure how much this does or doesn't have to do with Centennial Charmed - whether just because his demonic mother screwed his non-magical father means that this should put Cole in the same category as Cal Greene rather then the Source despite having been a mercenary demon for almost 100 years, but... I do agree that him deciding to live in a world where Paige was dead was the stupidest thing he did. I always thought he was a smart demon, but that was pure stupidity. The *only* way he could've live sappily ever after would be one where Phoebe never found out that he was anything but a lawyer - or one where he was able to kill Prue and Piper before Phoebe was born, so Phoebe never would've become Charmed. But if that happened, would he have ever met her? And that's the best thing that could've happened to him. If he never met Phoebe, but continued to be a mercenary demon killing people he would've been a hellova lot happier. I also love that scene and it is one of my favorites as well. Point taken. But let's just remember the difference between Phoebe and Paige setting Rick up to die and Cole/Belthazor killing innocents just out of pure demonic needs/enjoyment. |
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Nimue
Familiar
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Post by Nimue on Jan 26, 2016 14:11:46 GMT -5
Juls, you do realize that Cole was raised that way by his mother, right? And he didn't kill innocents out of pure demonic needs/enjoyment, or else why didn't he keep on killing people after he and Phoebe started dating? Because once he and Phoebe were together, he stopped being a mercenary demon. He did everything he could to change.
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Post by erikamarie on Jan 26, 2016 14:39:03 GMT -5
Again I must refer to Mortality Bites in which the mandate of the sisters is made clear: Protect the Innocent, not punish the guilty. By killing Cal Green, Phoebe had violated that mandate. At least when she realized what she had done, Phoebe was willing to own up to it, she told her sisters not to stop her execution for the crime. That was the lesson learned. The same applied to Rick. Yes, he was a criminal and a murderer, but that is totally irrelevant here. It's up to the State of California to decide his fate, not the Halliwell sisters. Phoebe had no more right to kill him than she did Cal Green. However, unlike the case of Cal Green, Phoebe was not willing to own up for what she (and Paige) had done here. They just said that there had been no other way. No other way. As I said, that's complete rubbish. Paige could have orbed the gun! There is no getting around that, I'm afraid. As P3Nathan pointed out in his review of this episode, Rick stood there blabbing for quite some time, Paige had more than enough time to use her powers to disarm him. So why didn't she? Had she accidentally orbed her brain into the next county? Now, if I had written the scene, it would have gone like this: Rick: Blah, blah, blah...
Paige: Holds out her hands. Gun!
The guns orbs out of Rick's hands and into Paige's.
Rick: What the??
Phoebe: Thanks, sis. A few martial arts moves and Rick is on the floor, out cold.
Paige: Right, you tie him up and I'll call Daryl. See, it was easy as pie. Killing Rick was not necessary. Instead the sisters violated their mandate. However, unlike the case of Cal Green, this time they got off scott free. I agree with you, I think that Morality Bites's lesson was the the sisters had to stay together if they wanted to grow as witches Phoebe refuses to flee not because she believes to deserve to be burned,she'ld be crazy if she thought this, but because Leo convinced her that it will stop the witch hunt However, many people may think many different things The Charmed Ones have certainly made mistakes in their eight years as witches, as is normal, if it has to be the story of three common sisters If it had been the story of three witches devoted night and day to the sacred mission,oure, perfect and ready to jump into the fire for the neighbor's cat, without friends, fiancè, children,short skirts or low-cut dresses, ready to give up their own life or take a bullet in order not to touch the sacred jailbird...I think maybe I'ld have watche for a half an hour and then I'ld have avoided the serie |
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Post by Melinda Halliwell on Jan 26, 2016 22:00:38 GMT -5
Maybe the reason why the writers never had Paige orb the gun out and then Phoebe knock out Rick is if the Scabber demons were only made to be one time things so had the latter happened then the former would still apply so having Paige turn Rick into Chris and then killed subsequent served the writers purpose if the Scabbers weren't goanna be featured again unless they fought another way of getting them of Chris's tail afterwards obviously.
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Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?"
Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,920
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Post by Esmeralda on Jan 27, 2016 5:29:57 GMT -5
--Morality Bites Well, guess what? The Charmed Ones crossed that line again and again and again...soul-raping Darryl; setting up Rick to be murdered; planning the premeditated murder of the Jenkinses. Those are the worst, but there were others, when their motto became "Ends justify the means" rather than "The wrong thing done for the right reason is still the wrong thing." They got to the point where they thought they could judge who was good and who was evil and be judge, jury and executioner. It's why I couldn't stand them starting with "Vallhalley of the Dolls" and why that's my least-favorite episode. It's also one of many reasons why I don't think "Forever Charmed" is anything more than Piper's delusion as she's in a coma after "Kill Billie, Vol 2." NO WAY that's anything but the future she wants, not the future she'll get. Billie will do something to annoy her. Piper will finally have enough. She'll explode Billie and *she'll* be the one who ends up on the pyre...if Phoebe doesn't murder Cal Greene again first. No way I don't believe those two will just keep on being judge, jury and executioner and eventually what goes around will come around and bite at least one of them in the a$$. Truly not sure how much this does or doesn't have to do with Centennial Charmed - whether just because his demonic mother screwed his non-magical father means that this should put Cole in the same category as Cal Greene rather then the Source despite having been a mercenary demon for almost 100 years, but... I do agree that him deciding to live in a world where Paige was dead was the stupidest thing he did. I always thought he was a smart demon, but that was pure stupidity. The *only* way he could've live sappily ever after would be one where Phoebe never found out that he was anything but a lawyer - or one where he was able to kill Prue and Piper before Phoebe was born, so Phoebe never would've become Charmed. But if that happened, would he have ever met her? And that's the best thing that could've happened to him. If he never met Phoebe, but continued to be a mercenary demon killing people he would've been a hellova lot happier. I also love that scene and it is one of my favorites as well. Point taken. But let's just remember the difference between Phoebe and Paige setting Rick up to die and Cole/Belthazor killing innocents just out of pure demonic needs/enjoyment. Thanks for that reminder, Juls. I had indeed forgotten that huge difference. |
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Nimue
Familiar
Posts: 606
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Post by Nimue on Jan 27, 2016 7:02:42 GMT -5
There was never anything on the show that showed or implied Cole killed out enjoyment/pure need. Let's not forget his mother raised him that way. If he really did it out of enjoyment or need, then why did he stop after meeting Phoebe? Better still, why didn't he kill Phoebe when he had the chance? If it was something he really enjoyed or needed, even his love for Phoebe wouldn't have been able to prevent that. And before anyone says anything about the Hollow, he did that to save the sisters; a part of him did miss being a demon, missed those powers, but that has nothing to do with enjoying the kill: it just means he didn't like feeling powerless (and who can blame him?), and that he was desperate to help the Halliwells. Cole isn't the ruthless, sadistic one-dimensional monster a lot of people try to paint him as. He's a lot more complex than that.
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Post by sol on Feb 8, 2016 12:06:40 GMT -5
I don't think that Cole was " a ruthless, sadistic one-dimensional monster " and I think he wished to save Phoebe from the Sourse but he wasn't also a knight in shining armor, he loved power, and he wasn't possessed, I cannot think of one of my favorite characters like a poor devil who falls in a banal trap
I have a doubt: was Cole turned into an Avatar or not?
I mean Cole got Avatars powers but Alpha never warned that his persistence in his alternative world could have consequences for their collective
If Cole realized his personal world, how could be possible that in that alternate reality neither he nor Phoebe were more in love?
The alternate reality Cole shows interest in in the powerful son whohe'ld have with Phoebe, not in Phoebe
May Cole have used his new power in a so bad way?
Or Alpha influenced the creation of the alternate reality, breaking their romance so that Cole, disappointed, ditched that reality for him unbearable?
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Post by erikamarie on Feb 8, 2016 15:59:49 GMT -5
I believe that the Avatars probably altered Cole's ideal world, developing a devastating situation for him, in order to Cole'ld voluntarily come back to his original reality and join them
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