juls
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Post by juls on Jan 9, 2016 10:38:14 GMT -5
So my girlfriend and I are re-watching "Charmed". I've only watched seasons 3 - 8, one time through and have seen seasons 1 and 2 many times so I'm a little fuzzy on the seasons after 2. I had a question about "Centennial Charmed" - when Phoebe vanquishes Cole at the end of the episode, is that really her doing it or just Paige's dream? I'm really confused as to what happened in that episode but I know that's the last time Phoebe ever sees Cole since only Piper sees him in that season 7 episode.
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Post by adzpower on Jan 9, 2016 13:05:15 GMT -5
It wasn't a dream, it was in an alternate reality so Phoebe doesn't remember doing it but since the Cole that was vanquished was the Cole that was from the normal reality it was final.
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juls
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Post by juls on Jan 9, 2016 22:14:09 GMT -5
Oh ok, thank you for answering that for me. I kinda wanted Phoebe to remember it since it was such a huge movement in the story and the end of Cole, but at least it happened.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2016 0:28:19 GMT -5
What gets me is that they compared this episode to It's A Wonderful Life!
It's an insult to a great film like IAWL to even use it in the same sentence as Centennial Cr*p.
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juls
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Post by juls on Jan 10, 2016 11:22:04 GMT -5
That's kind of harsh for a "Charmed" fan to say. I liked the episode, I just wished that Phoebe would've remembered that momentous moment and that it wasn't in an alternate reality.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2016 12:33:52 GMT -5
I've said worse about this one.
It was a HORRIBLE episode, and many fans, me included, were left angry the way Cole was just disposed of like your Demon Of The Week. Of course, Brad Kern wrote this hunk of turd, so I'm not surprised how bad it turned out to be.
Mind you, my anger was tempered by Seven Year Witch, an episode that gave Cole a much better send off, IMO.
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Post by lilchi7212 on Jan 10, 2016 23:21:30 GMT -5
That's kind of harsh for a "Charmed" fan to say. I liked the episode, I just wished that Phoebe would've remembered that momentous moment and that it wasn't in an alternate reality. I hated that episode they could've done a better job. Phoebe's not gonna remember it since Cole thanks to the Avatar powers he gained altered reality. Although if you go on to Season 8 she sees for herself Cole's vanquish in that reality when Coop took her back to see some of her past loves |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2016 0:25:08 GMT -5
And that should not have been possible. Phoebe Prime was not a witness to those events. Rather the alt-Phoebe was, and alt-Phoebe was wiped out along with that reality.
Paige and Cole are the only two beings (not counting the Avatars) who would have memories of that alternate reality. Yes, Paige no doubt told Phoebe Prime was happened, but since Phoebe Prime did not directly witness the events herself, she would have no memories of them for Coop to draw upon.
Once again the crack monkey writers dropped the ball.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Jan 11, 2016 3:29:36 GMT -5
I also hated that episode. It was mainly a boring one about Piper and Leo. Worse, the episode had Cole take responsibility for deliberately getting Phoebe pregnant, when it was the old Source (in possession of Cole's body) and the Seer who plotted to get her knocked up.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2016 12:47:42 GMT -5
Seven Year Witch wasn't perfect, but it did give Cole a more decent send off, IMO.
However, the problems of Centennial Cr*p is more than the way Cole was horrible treated. The whole premise of the episode made no sense at all.
First of all, Phoebe and Piper meeting Paige had NO impact on Phoebe and Cole's relationship at all. Why he picked that event as the cause of their break up baffles me to no end. Did Kern get an attack of short term amnesia and prayed we would to?
Second of all, at the end, when Cole's spell is undone, Paige discovers that time kept moving forward in Reality Prime. So, what Cole did was not overlay and replace Reality Prime, rather he merely created and alternate reality that existed alongside Reality Prime. If that was the case, then Paige should not have been affected at all. She and her sisters would just continue dippy bopping along in Reality Prime and the only impact would be, from their perspective, Cole just vanished into thin air one day. They would be in Reality Prime and Cole would be in the reality that he created, and neither would have any affect on the other.
If Cole's spell had temporarily replaced Reality Prime with the reality he created, then, when his spell was revered, Reality Prime would have resumed back at the point where Paige and her sisters were at P3, watching Michelle Branch (that's when Cole's spell began).
Take the ST: TNG episode, Yesterday's Enterprise, as an example. The following comes from Wikipedia:
The Enterprise-D encounters a rift in space-time while on a routine mission. As they monitor the anomaly, the heavily damaged USS Enterprise-C, a ship believed destroyed more than two decades earlier, emerges. Instantly, the Enterprise-D undergoes a sudden and radical change: it is now a warship and the Federation is at war with the Klingons. Neither Worf nor Counselor Troi are seen or referred to, and Tasha Yar runs the tactical station. None of the crew notice the change, but Guinan senses that reality has changed, and has a meeting with Captain Picard. She says, for example, that there are supposed to be children on the ship, which of course is completely impractical on a warship. She suggests that the Enterprise-C does not belong in their time and should return to the past. Picard, who knows that this would be a suicide mission, refuses to give such an order on Guinan's intuition alone.
Captain Rachel Garrett of the Enterprise-C and her crew learn they have travelled into the future. Garrett explains that they were responding to a distress call from the Klingon outpost on Narendra III, and were attacked by Romulan warbirds. While the crew works to repair the Enterprise-C and tend to the crew's injuries, Picard and his command staff discuss whether or not the ship should return to the past. Riker argues that their deaths would be meaningless, but Data suggests that it would be considered an honorable act by the Klingons. Picard discusses the situation with Garrett, who tells him that her crew will serve the Federation in the present. Picard quietly reveals to her that the Federation is on the verge of defeat and the presence of one ship will make no difference, but if the Enterprise-C were to return to the past they might prevent the war from ever starting. Garrett agrees and announces to her crew that they will return through the anomaly, but at that moment, the two ships are ambushed by a Klingon Bird of Prey. Garrett is killed, and her helmsman, Richard Castillo, takes command.
During the repair efforts, Yar has become close to Castillo, but is unnerved by tense interactions with Guinan. Guinan reveals to Yar that she knows that Yar dies a meaningless death in the alternate timeline, and the two never should have met. Yar requests a transfer to the Enterprise-C based on Guinan's advice, to which Picard agrees.
As the Enterprise-C prepares to return through the anomaly, three Klingon battlecruisers attack. With the anomaly becoming unstable, Picard orders the Enterprise-D to cover the Enterprise-C's withdrawal. The Enterprise-D suffers major crew losses under the Klingon barrage, including the death of Commander Riker, and forcing Picard to man tactical himself. With the Enterprise-D on the brink of destruction, the Enterprise-C traverses the anomaly.
In the restored timeline, Guinan, still subtly aware of these events, asks La Forge to tell her more about Yar.
When the Enterprise-C goes back to the past, Reality Prime returns to normal at the exact point just before the change. That is normal, since Reality Prime was replaced by a new time line when the Enterprise-C came through the rift. When that new time line was erased, everything reset to just before it started.
That is what should have happened in Centennial Cr*p. However, since it didn't happen, that only means that Reality Prime was not replaced and thus would have been unaffected by Cole's spell. The same goes for anyone living in Reality Prime, like Paige and her sisters.
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Post by sol on Jan 12, 2016 6:19:12 GMT -5
That's kind of harsh for a "Charmed" fan to say. I liked the episode, I just wished that Phoebe would've remembered that momentous moment and that it wasn't in an alternate reality. I like it and it's not only me, I remember many fans from Embrujadas'forum, it was considered one of the best episodes of season 5 It start as it was a light episode, there are trials of childbirth, celebrations for Darryl's promotionl, the uncontrolled disappearance of Paige due to her sneezing, Paige's impatience for being the younger sister, Piper's impatience for the idea of an home childbirth, since we fall in the dark alternate reality created by Cole I think of Cole as the most successful male character of Charmed, he is my favorite and it is for this reason that I'ld never liked an happy ending "Amor Vincit Omnia" style : Cole pushing a pram and helping Phoebe with rhymes? Give me a break! Cole is romantic, he really believes that love'ld be enough, he believes he can invent a "Cole & Phoebe world" , maybe because he is 100 years old, maybe because he isn't too much familiar with humans world As Cole is not just Cole but also Belthazor, Phoebe is not only his love, she is also a witch, a sister, a woman who loves her job, she'ld not live in the attic isolated from everyone, just for him Changing the past to create an alternate reality has unforseen consequences, Cole. Even for you. The ripple effect of even one small change could----- the Avatar says and he's right In the world without Paige, Piper is the fury Piper, looking for Shax, consumed by revenge, Leo tries to watch over her, with patience and not many hope but Cole is Belthazor again, he is again looking for power, for an heir and his marriage to Phoebe is without love, it's just a matter of business Cole: What happened to us, Phoebe? How'd we get here? We used to be so in love. Even without your sisters, it's not working. Why?
Phoebe: I don't know. Maybe it just wasn't meant to be
This is the bitter truth that Cole learns, their love was strong, was passionate but this is not enough and even if he can keep going manipulating reality, this truth'ld not change: their worlds are different,they have different expectations and dreams Really is Cole / Belthazor willing to become a simple street lawyer? After 100 years as prestigious affiliated to a powerful Brotherhood, is that his purpose? I think of the final scene of " The Graduate": they are together and they are happy and now? What it'll be their future? On the site there was a long debate, their love story was still the favorite of the majority and yet the same majority thought that an happy ending would have trivialized the story itself and Cole's character Cole bursts into Charme as Belthazor, a ruthless killer, as Belthazor, because of his stubborn love, is killed: a great end |
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Post by lilchi7212 on Jan 12, 2016 18:54:47 GMT -5
That's kind of harsh for a "Charmed" fan to say. I liked the episode, I just wished that Phoebe would've
Phoebe: I don't know. Maybe it just wasn't meant to be
This is the bitter truth that Cole learns, their love was strong, was passionate but this is not enough and even if he can keep going manipulating reality, this truth'ld not change: their worlds are different,they have different expectations and dreams Really is Cole / Belthazor willing to become a simple street lawyer? After 100 years as prestigious affiliated to a powerful What exactly did Phoebe want in the relationship? Trust, respect, boundries,honesty what did she want? |
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Post by sol on Jan 13, 2016 1:38:21 GMT -5
Honesty, I think
I'ldn't like that my husband knocked out my own marriage or conspired behind me or drove my sister mad
Cole should have trusted Phoebe and face the truth and he was, has always been, able to do so
In We’re Off To See The Wizard, when Cole realizes that Phoebe had a vision of him, he decides to hand the Source powers over the wizard, he is free to do this
Phoebe was agreeable to live a life with a Cole powerless and looking for a role in her world, she finally had a job and could support the family while Cole was learning to live as a human being
Normal things, as using protection when you remove a pan from the oven or learning to mediate as a lawyer or running to stay in good shape or driving an ordinary car and not a Porsche
Phoebe has always had blind faith in Cole and he destroyed this trust
Could you trust again who betrayed you?
I cannot
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Post by Sadrick on Jan 13, 2016 6:12:11 GMT -5
I don't subscribe to the idea that Phoebe and Cole were doomed from the start. It disregards the outlying circumstances which lead to their estrangement -- the involvement of third party entities seeking to entice Cole back into practicing evil and the short-sighted rationalisation of the sisters when they left Cole out to rot on more than one occasion for tragedies that weren't entirely his fault and couldn't be resolved through a black and white lens. It's true that Cole had his insecurities and frustration in trying to adjust to human civilian life more than others, but he wasn't given much time to emotionally and psychologically settle into it before he got the Source's essence occupying the void in his soul. Had he been allowed to remain human until the end of the season and the sisters agreed to relinquish their powers, we might be seeing a stable and happy Cole/Phoebe marriage in the present with their own children.
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Post by sol on Jan 13, 2016 17:29:23 GMT -5
They'ld have the happy end if they had the time and if the conditions had been different
Drake never wanted to be a demon and he has never behaved like a demon, he is fascinated by the world of humans
Instead Cole was an authoritative demon, part of an important Brotherhood and betrays his world only due to his love for Phoebe, without pay attention or figure out what role he would have in the human world of the Charmed Ones
He'ld need time to decide, to understand what he wanted and want it was possible for him to do
And I'm sure he'ld have kept his Belthazor powers,they were part of him, losing it was like losing his sight
A great mistake being human, a worst mistake becoming the Source
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Post by lilchi7212 on Jan 13, 2016 18:44:14 GMT -5
Honesty, I think I'ldn't like that my husband knocked out my own marriage or conspired behind me or drove my sister mad Cole should have trusted Phoebe and face the truth and he was, has always been, able to do so In We’re Off To See The Wizard, when Cole realizes that Phoebe had a vision of him, he decides to hand the Source powers over the wizard, he is free to do this Phoebe was agreeable to live a life with a Cole powerless and looking for a role in her world, she finally had a job and could support the family while Cole was learning to live as a human being Normal things, as using protection when you remove a pan from the oven or learning to mediate as a lawyer or running to stay in good shape or driving an ordinary car and not a Porsche Phoebe has always had blind faith in Cole and he destroyed this trust Could you trust again who betrayed you? I cannot That is a real stupid excuse. Phoebe could never trust herself that's why love wasn't enough. |
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Post by lilchi7212 on Jan 13, 2016 18:59:20 GMT -5
Instead Cole was an authoritative demon, part of an important Brotherhood and betrays his world only due to his love for Phoebe, without pay attention or figure out what role he would have in the human world of the Charmed Ones He'ld need time to decide, to understand what he wanted and want it was possible for him to do And I'm sure he'ld have kept his Belthazor powers,they were part of him, losing it was like losing his sight A great mistake being human, a worst mistake becoming the Source You can say the same thing about Leo. Leo had a hard time trying to fit into the world after being a whitelighter longer than he was human. Leo betrays the elders for his love for Piper. How is this any different? Cole lost part of his identity and the Charmed Ones didn't seem to help him adjust very well. Only thing that kept Leo sane was Magic School until that got taken over by demons and then he became Piper's errand boy. |
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Esmeralda
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Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
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Post by Esmeralda on Jan 13, 2016 22:57:24 GMT -5
Instead Cole was an authoritative demon, part of an important Brotherhood and betrays his world only due to his love for Phoebe, without pay attention or figure out what role he would have in the human world of the Charmed Ones He'ld need time to decide, to understand what he wanted and want it was possible for him to do And I'm sure he'ld have kept his Belthazor powers,they were part of him, losing it was like losing his sight A great mistake being human, a worst mistake becoming the Source You can say the same thing about Leo. Leo had a hard time trying to fit into the world after being a whitelighter longer than he was human. Leo betrays the elders for his love for Piper. How is this any different? Cole lost part of his identity and the Charmed Ones didn't seem to help him adjust very well. Only thing that kept Leo sane was Magic School until that got taken over by demons and then he became Piper's errand boy. For me, there is no difference. That's part of why I can't see the flashforward in 'Forever Charmed' as anything but Piper's delusion as she dies after the explosion in 'Kill Billie, Vol 2' because I can't see Leo living sappily ever after without his wings, part of why I count the S9 comics as another alternate universe since something different must've happened in its version of S4-8 so both Leo and Cole (AND PIPER!) could be happy as they are - given what we were given in S4-8, I can't see that ever happening. Both Cole without Belthazor's powers and Leo without his wings were whimpy errand boys, totally disgusting. I liked them best when they were the demon (I'll never count Cole as a half, the way I'll never count Paige as a half) and the angel, especially in early S4 before Phoebe takes away Belthazor's powers. |
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Post by erikamarie on Jan 14, 2016 11:48:34 GMT -5
Instead Cole was an authoritative demon, part of an important Brotherhood and betrays his world only due to his love for Phoebe, without pay attention or figure out what role he would have in the human world of the Charmed Ones He'ld need time to decide, to understand what he wanted and want it was possible for him to do And I'm sure he'ld have kept his Belthazor powers,they were part of him, losing it was like losing his sight A great mistake being human, a worst mistake becoming the Source You can say the same thing about Leo. Leo had a hard time trying to fit into the world after being a whitelighter longer than he was human. Leo betrays the elders for his love for Piper. How is this any different? Cole lost part of his identity and the Charmed Ones didn't seem to help him adjust very well. Only thing that kept Leo sane was Magic School until that got taken over by demons and then he became Piper's errand boy. Leo came back to the world to which he belonged He was born and raised in the States, had studied, participated in a war and, as whitelighter, lived in our society helping people like him,he was able to understand rules and conventions of human society He left the Elders to return to his family, a wife and two children, to live the life that he'ld have lived if he wasn't died I'ld like to understand why a man who looks after his kids and makes commissions while the wife works, had to be contemptuously called errand boy, I'm glad that in Charmed a jobless man tried to make himself useful to his family |
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Post by sol on Jan 14, 2016 12:54:27 GMT -5
Honesty, I think I'ldn't like that my husband knocked out my own marriage or conspired behind me or drove my sister mad Cole should have trusted Phoebe and face the truth and he was, has always been, able to do so In We’re Off To See The Wizard, when Cole realizes that Phoebe had a vision of him, he decides to hand the Source powers over the wizard, he is free to do this Phoebe was agreeable to live a life with a Cole powerless and looking for a role in her world, she finally had a job and could support the family while Cole was learning to live as a human being Normal things, as using protection when you remove a pan from the oven or learning to mediate as a lawyer or running to stay in good shape or driving an ordinary car and not a Porsche Phoebe has always had blind faith in Cole and he destroyed this trust Could you trust again who betrayed you? I cannot That is a real stupid excuse. Phoebe could never trust herself that's why love wasn't enough. A little more education in respect to others' ideas would be nice |
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