Did Piper ever truly accept Paige?

[Astral Alex]

Hi guys, don't know how this will work seen as though this board isn't very active (as I recall), but I'm new and this has been puzzling me for a while now, after rewatching Season's 4, 5 and 6.

Did Piper ever accept Paige as a sister? I noticed that Phoebe and Paige enjoyed quite a close bond throughout the latter seasons, but did Piper ever accept Paige as a sister? And does anybody recall her showing deep signs of affection? The first sign I can recall is at the end of Season Four after the sisters have vanquished Cole, and Phoebe and Piper are cuddling on the bed, and Paige doesn't know whether to join them or not.

What do you think? Another example which randomly springs to mind is in Kill Billie Vol. 2, where Piper is crying over Phoebe, and doesn't think about Paige until she hears Billie's spluttering.

What are your thoughts?

[joshingabout]

You know, I kinda wondered this too. Kill Bille Vol.2 really sprung to mind, like you said. I think she did, but Paige was always held a runner-up when compared to Phoebe, who got Piper's attention more often than not.

[SEERofCHAOS]

Well if you think about it, Piper knew Phoebe all her life, and practically grew up with her. With Paige, she just came out of the blue and she never had the same advantage Phoebe had.

If I found out I had say, another brother who randomly showed up one day, I wouldn't start to think of him right away as a brother, it might even take a few years before that.

Also, Astral Alex I blessed you for bringing up such an interesting debate.

[Lexi]

This is definitely an interesting one.

Hmm, I remember the season 4 episode when Piper wanted to talk to Phoebe after finding out that there was a possibility of not having children but she had to turn to Paige instead. I don't remember details but I just remember Paige offering to be an ear for listening.

I think at that point though, Piper saw Paige as more of a friend than a sister, which I could see as believable. The rest of that season was rushed, IMHO, especially with Paige moving into the manor and such; I think they could have dealt with Piper moving on from Prue and allowing someone else in Prue's room taking a little longer than it did.

I also remember as season 7 episode where Piper and Phoebe were talking about "mom" and "dad" and Paige was completely left out of the conversation. I think it was to do with what would have happened had Victor stayed with Patty, I felt really sorry for Paige and just wanted her to come out with "well, I wouldn't be here then".

[Esmeralda]

I truly don't think either Piper or Phoebe ever truly looked at Paige as a sister, just like Paige never looked at them that way. They called each other sisters, but since they weren't raised as sisters, how could they truly treat each other that way, especially Paige who never had one?

I don't even think Piper and Paige ever became close friends, not the way Paige and Phoebe did. I think Phoebe liked the chance to have a relationship with a sister the way that Prue and Piper had while she always felt on the outside looking in, while Piper closed her heart and wouldn't let anyone else in, part of the reason I hated the cold-hearted b*tch, while I loved the Piper of S1-3.

In S4, I understand why she reacted the way she did and would've been disappointed if she didn't. But after seeing the birth of Wyatt bring our S1-3 Piper back, I couldn't understand why she treated Paige the way she did during S6-8. I think she *forced* herself to try to act like a sister/friend, but I never got the feeling that she truly meant it.

So, no, I don't think Piper ever truly accepted Paige as anything but a substitute for Prue in the Power of Three. Had Piper, Phoebe and Paige decided to give up their powers during "Witch Way Now?" I think Phoebe and Paige would've continued to be friends, but I don't think Piper would've had much to do with Paige at all.

[ljones]

Someone should write an article about the curious relationship between Piper and Paige. I haven't seen that many episodes between S6 and S8 to do it justice.

[dylan345]

This is one of the things that annoyed me the most about Charmed during the Paige years.

First off, I completely understand that the way Piper and Paige's relationship unfolded was completely natural. Not everyone gets along or becomes best friends, and some people can really dislike each other. But for a show that started off centering around the idea of sisterhood, I can't accept the two of them not getting along past season four, when Piper was still openly grieving Prue.

Just like Es said, it was completely normal for Piper to act the way she did to Paige in season four. I would do the same, as I think most other people would as well. Piper not accepting Paige right away was a good direction to take the show in. I can't hold anything against Piper during her time of grieving, which I think eased up considerably after learning she was pregnant.

After that time, starting at the beginning of season five, she was rude and dismissive to Paige for no reason. At that point, Piper had to face facts: Paige was another Charmed One, so most likely they would be around each other for the rest of their lives. The least she could do was pretend to like her. She should have been friendly to her if for no other reason than they would spend the majority of the rest of their lives together. She never considered Paige's feelings on the matter, of how she might feel excluded from the family because of Piper's behavior. In short, Piper needed to grow up and not be rude just because she lost her favorite sister and got one she didn't like very much. It's called being civil.

Like I said before, the writers should have written Piper and Paige closer starting after season four ended, as sisterhood was a main theme of the show. And beyond sisterhood, just being a kind human being was something that should have been shown too.

If I had known that nearly five years of bonding opportunities would have culminated in Piper not even checking to see if Paige was alive in the rubble of the house in Kill Billie Vol. 2, I wouldn't have watched past the end of season four.

[Jad]

Acceptance has many different levels, and as for as Piper and Paige go, they had a working relationship from the start which would always taint their relationship as sisters. Prue, Piper and Phoebe were sisters first and Charmed Ones second, but this can't be said of Paige's relationship with either Piper or Phoebe.

Familiar bonds take longer in adults to form in most cases. In this case, Paige has no basis for forming a strong sisterhood bond, so the lack of closeness is partly Paige's fault also. But, fault is not the right word in that there is no blame here, just facts. The show did a pretty good job of portraying this relationship.

Neither Piper nor Paige had the time or inclination to bond as sisters during the shows run.

The only way they'd bond is by being Mothers together and watching their children grow up together.

[SD]

i think she did because in the end she knew they wouldnt be anything without paige for havin the power of three
also i think she did like her as a sister as much as she liked prue

she just grew up with prue so its different

[dylan345]

Mar 23, 2011 20:16:35 GMT -5 Jad said:

Acceptance has many different levels, and as for as Piper and Paige go, they had a working relationship from the start which would always taint their relationship as sisters. Prue, Piper and Phoebe were sisters first and Charmed Ones second, but this can't be said of Paige's relationship with either Piper or Phoebe.

Familiar bonds take longer in adults to form in most cases. In this case, Paige has no basis for forming a strong sisterhood bond, so the lack of closeness is partly Paige's fault also. But, fault is not the right word in that there is no blame here, just facts. The show did a pretty good job of portraying this relationship.

Neither Piper nor Paige had the time or inclination to bond as sisters during the shows run.

The only way they'd bond is by being Mothers together and watching their children grow up together.

I agree with this completely. It was just a bad move for the writers to make when the show centered on sisterhood. Again, I loved how they weren't close in season four, but after that the writers should have remembered one of the main concepts of their show and fixed it, at least so they appeared to get along better.

[Reality Bites]

Mar 23, 2011 20:16:35 GMT -5 Jad said:

Acceptance has many different levels, and as for as Piper and Paige go, they had a working relationship from the start which would always taint their relationship as sisters. Prue, Piper and Phoebe were sisters first and Charmed Ones second, but this can't be said of Paige's relationship with either Piper or Phoebe.

Familiar bonds take longer in adults to form in most cases. In this case, Paige has no basis for forming a strong sisterhood bond, so the lack of closeness is partly Paige's fault also. But, fault is not the right word in that there is no blame here, just facts. The show did a pretty good job of portraying this relationship.

Neither Piper nor Paige had the time or inclination to bond as sisters during the shows run.

The only way they'd bond is by being Mothers together and watching their children grow up together.

I think you hit the nail on the head regarding this issue! For that, I've blessed you!

[Jad]

Thanks for the blessing, but I didn't write that to end the thread.

My point of view is not the end of all things although that would be nice.

What we have here is the word acceptance when it's more about a familiar bond. I have some insight here as I belong to a rather large extended family. I have 4 siblings and four children and 15 nephews and nieces if I did my count right. I understand the dynamics of a large family, and they are a mess. It's been nice to see all the cousins grow up together and then apart. Still, holiday dinners can be seating for 25 please, what a mess.

This is not for showing off or any such thing, but to show where I'm coming from, and explanation of my insight if you will.

[Reality Bites]

I know you weren't trying to end the thread. All discussions here are more often than not open-ended. I'm just stating, I think you've definitely defined the relationship in a way that appears to be the most sensible.

[Esmeralda]

Mar 23, 2011 20:16:35 GMT -5 Jad said:

Acceptance has many different levels, and as for as Piper and Paige go, they had a working relationship from the start which would always taint their relationship as sisters. Prue, Piper and Phoebe were sisters first and Charmed Ones second, but this can't be said of Paige's relationship with either Piper or Phoebe.

Familiar bonds take longer in adults to form in most cases. In this case, Paige has no basis for forming a strong sisterhood bond, so the lack of closeness is partly Paige's fault also. But, fault is not the right word in that there is no blame here, just facts. The show did a pretty good job of portraying this relationship.

Neither Piper nor Paige had the time or inclination to bond as sisters during the shows run.

The only way they'd bond is by being Mothers together and watching their children grow up together.

I agree with most of this, but not the last sentence. Although I agree that they might bond together as fellow mothers, I'm not sure if that would allow them to truly accept each other as *sisters*. Hearing the other's children call them "Aunt" might help, but I still think that although they might become closer friends, I don't think they'd ever truly be sisters, not the way Prue and Piper were.

I think this is why Paige always considered herself a Matthews, never a Halliwell. Her parents were *not* Sam and Patty - they were her adopted parents - her calling Patty "Mom" in "Charmed Again II" never made sense to me. Sam and Patty were her mother and father - they were *not* her dad and mom.

So if Sam and Patty were not Mom and Dad, how could Piper and Phoebe ever truly be sisters?

I do agree that although this relationship helped keep the Charmed Ones going, it helped take away the idea of sisters who happened to be witches, what was such a huge part of the earlier seasons. It's another one of many reasons why I wish that during "Witch Way Now", they had decided against remaining witches, so Paige could've gone back to her own life while Piper and Phoebe could've had theirs. And we wouldn't have had to put up with S5-88.

[Astral Alex]

I'm sort of playing Devil's Advocate here, but my opinion has slightly changed on the matter...

Last night I was watching my Season 4 and Season 5 DVD's in particular, the episodes:

4.03 - Hell Hath No Fury
4.13 - Charmed and Dangerous
4.20 - Long Live the Queen
4.21 - Womb Raider
4.22 - Witch Way Now?
5.07 - Sympathy for the Demon
5.09 - Sam, I Am

and a few scenes in each of these episodes gave me this conclusion:

I think Piper accepted Paige as a sister at the end of Season Four, the scene at the end of Long Live the Queen was so heart-renching, where Paige lies down with Phoebe and Piper on the bed and they are all hugging.

Phoebe is crying because of Cole, but then Paige starts to cry, I personally think this is because she herself feels like she has finally been accepted as a sister.

Also, in Sam, I Am - Piper comes out with the brilliant line 'Paige saved us, she brought this family back together'

I think this shows Piper's gratitude towards Paige, she just doesn't like to show her emotions as Prue's death hardened her up.

[Esmeralda]

Mar 27, 2011 7:52:06 GMT -5 Astral Alex said:

I'm sort of playing Devil's Advocate here, but my opinion has slightly changed on the matter...

Last night I was watching my Season 4 and Season 5 DVD's in particular, the episodes:

4.03 - Hell Hath No Fury
4.13 - Charmed and Dangerous
4.20 - Long Live the Queen
4.21 - Womb Raider
4.22 - Witch Way Now?
5.07 - Sympathy for the Demon
5.09 - Sam, I Am

and a few scenes in each of these episodes gave me this conclusion:

I think Piper accepted Paige as a sister at the end of Season Four, the scene at the end of Long Live the Queen was so heart-renching, where Paige lies down with Phoebe and Piper on the bed and they are all hugging.

Phoebe is crying because of Cole, but then Paige starts to cry, I personally think this is because she herself feels like she has finally been accepted as a sister.

Also, in Sam, I Am - Piper comes out with the brilliant line 'Paige saved us, she brought this family back together'

I think this shows Piper's gratitude towards Paige, she just doesn't like to show her emotions as Prue's death hardened her up.

I still think this shows more accepting her as part of the Power of Three, not as a sister - without Paige, the demons would've killed Piper and Phoebe in Charmed Again Part 2 and ended the family.

And Paige and Piper consoling Phoebe was consoling *Phoebe* - who *had* accepted Paige as a sister and friend - not Piper.

[Jad]

Piper had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the relationship with Paige. Sure, she accepted her on a mental level but was so to form an emotional bond. This is not to say that Paige was the same way. She was slow to accept her new found sisters. She did get to the mental acceptance faster than Piper, but she was slow also in the emotional department.

Phoebe was always very open emotionally. This in part was the source of her strength and her greatest weakness. She went out of her way to form an emotional bond with Paige even though it annoyed Paige once and a while. Phoebe's openess and attachment to her emotions had her falling in love and out of love far to quickly.

In the later seasons it appeared that the sisters were suffering from unaddressed PTSD. This is how I explain to myself how and why they acted crazy the last couple of seasons.

[ghostrider]

I am finding this to be a most thought provoking thread, and with the post I have read, it has sparked my interest in finally getting around to watching seasons 4 - 8. Also, thanks to the comments from the members I think I am beginning to look at Paige in a different light.

I never warmed up to Paige because I am bias. Period..but I might be able to take a step back from that if I take myself out of my world and just truly look at theirs.

No, from what little I watched and remember I don't think Piper ever bonded with Paige on a warm and fuzzy level of sister-hood, but now I am pondering if we should have ever expected that.

If you examine the relationship between Prue and Piper, could anyone expect the same love and re pour between Piper and Paige? I don't think so, at least not in 5 years.

Three things happened to Piper just about over night. She lost the older sister she adored, trusted, counted on and could lean on, in the blink of an eye. Prue died with a bang with no chance for good-byes. In fact Piper wasn't even conscience when Prue's spirit slipped away. Next she was thrust into the position of super-witch, in charge and in control of a life style unique to most mortals. She was the go-between and peace maker...not a leader. She was also the one most likely to say, "I hate being a witch"....To top it all off she suddenly is faced with having to deal with a total stranger she doesn't know from anywhere who turns out to be her illegitimate sister!!! Mix this mess with all of the other things on her plate...demons, mortal criminals, a boy-friend that has been deceased since WW2, and dead relatives that keep popping up who were remiss in educating her for this dangerous life and I am surprised she just resorted to whining. If it had been me I would have ended up spending the rest of my life at the Betty Ford clinic or changing me name and moving to another country. ;D Note: Phoebe to me dealt with this new addition just the way I believed she would...open to anything, no holds barred, full speed ahead. Oh, and..."oh goody, we are stilled charmed!!!"

As I remember when Piper was at Prue's crypt she was sobbing and she says..."She was with me ALL of my life"...this speaks volumes. She was what, 27 at the time. All we saw was her first 5 years with Paige, and in the library of life this first book might not even be completed. Paige had a tough act to follow and no matter how much time she had she could not and should not have been expected to fill Prue's shoes. Perhaps Piper knew this and dealt with Paige the only way she knew how. In truth, Paige was a necessary entity that filled the void for the Charmed Ones but not a replacement for the sister act that had spanned almost 3 decades. Speaking totally from the Charmed world not the viewers.

As for Paige and what we watched, I think her entrance could have been handled differently. She had a life before magic and I feel that should have continued. Learning from them could have been one aspect of her character but the bonding should have been delayed and allowed to grow a little longer. I think all of season 4 should have been a testing ground with doors open and questions marks running amok. Will she go, will she say, after all she is only a half-witch. Will they remain Charmed? Season 4 could have ended with a great cliff hanger.

[ljones]

Read more: thecharmedcafe.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=di

As I remember when Piper was at Prue's crypt she was sobbing and she says..."She was with me ALL of my life"...this speaks volumes. She was what, 27 at the time.

Piper was almost 29 years old at the time of Prue's death.


Personally, I feel that Piper's inability to emotionally bond with Paige . . . even after so many years is not a good reflection on her character. It only tells me that being open-minded has never been one of her strong suits and never will. And I found Piper's tendency to regard Paige as an unwanted or even tolerable replacement for Prue as questionable. Paige should not have been considered as a replacement for Prue . . . merely another sister to get to know.

I think Paige would not have had so much trouble in accepting Piper and Phoebe as sisters during the first several episodes of Season 4, if they had not been witches. I also believe that part of Paige's reluctance during that period stemmed from a suspicion that Piper and Phoebe only viewed her as a replacement for the Power of Three and nothing else. Although Phoebe quickly set about to bonding with Paige on a sibling level, Piper remained reluctant for a long time.

Will she go, will she say, after all she is only a half-witch.

What exactly is a half-witch?? Either Paige is a witch or not.

[dylan345]

Paige should never have been viewed as a replacement. There is no such thing when someone loses a loved one. As a Charmed One, yes, she was a replacement for their lost power, but as a sister, she had never even met Prue in her life, and had grown up in a completely different environment. She had no reason to be like Prue at all.

I wouldn't expect Piper and Paige to ever sit down with their arms around each other and talk like Prue and Piper did in "Heartbreak City." And we don't have to see Piper and Paige going out together all the time and finding a ton of things they have in common. But all I wanted to see was a friendly, warm relationship after season four, which I see as Piper's grieving time.

We actually saw the two of them at their closest in season four, oddly enough. There's the time in "Black as Cole" when Piper takes Paige's hand when they go up to the attic, or later in the season when Piper shows concern over Paige and goes to sit with her the morning following Paige's incident with the vampires. And of course the mourning scene on the bed following Cole's vanquish.

Piper just never seemed like she wanted Paige around after season four. Her words to her always lacked any warmth at all, and when they argued I sensed a true dislike between the two of them that I never sensed between Prue and Phoebe when they didn't get along.

I don't blame Piper for not making Paige her new best friend. But her coldness to the poor girl who probably felt like a fifth wheel most of her time with them anyway was just heartbreaking to watch.